HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk > Polls - (hockey-related only)

Which trade was worse, Kessel to TOR or Carter to CLB?

View Poll Results: Which trade was worse?
Phil Kessel to Toronto 182 57.05%
Jeff Carter to Columbus 125 39.18%
Both are equally bad and I can't choose just one 12 3.76%
Voters: 319. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-02-2012, 03:20 PM
  #301
topchowda
Registered User
 
topchowda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 5,956
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
It's really not as hard to judge as people are making it out to be.

CBJ v PHI

The Premise: The Bluejackets sent a former 7th overall draft pick capable of netting 50 pts. a season (proven) along with an 8th overall draft pick for a top-six center that nearly led the league in scoring a while ago.

The Result: The Bluejackets received a disgruntled player that demanded out after just 39 games, and managed a disappointing 25 points - roughly the same production they were getting out of Jakub Voracek at his best. The draft pick by pure chance then turned into Sean Couturier who had a very good rookie season, shouldering the bulk of his team's defensive responsibilities.

EDGE PHI
(177 games/36 goals/90 points to 39 games/15 goals/25 points)


TOR v BOS

The Premise: Toronto, starved for a star forward of their own, sent two (top-5) first-round draft picks to Boston for a former 5th overall selection, proven capable of netting 30 goals a season.

The Result: Phil Kessel has been one of the most consistent goal-scorers around the league, managing a minimum of 30 goals over the last three seasons, and averaging a total of 67 points a season. This past season, Phil Kessel and his linemate Joffrey Lupul each managed to close out the season at a PPG pace, though Lupul only played 66 games. Through two seasons in boston, Seguin has averaged 20 goals, 45 points, has never topped 30 goals, and was scratched for multiple games during Boston's trip to the Stanley Cup Finals. ...Doug Hamilton has yet to play a game in the NHL, AHL, or ECHL.

EDGE TOR
(234 games/99 goals/201 points to 175 games/45 goals/99 points)


--------------------

I'd say the CJB trade was worse because of what they got. If someone wants to evaluate the Johnson trade as a standalone, that's their prerogative, but as of today they paid through their teeth for a flop. The Maple Leafs, one could argue, won their trade handily until either Seguin steps up or Hamilton develops into something special.


A) he was rookie that season, how many rookie light it up in their first post season
B) Its a physical impossibility for Hamilton to play in any of those leagues. Something called "the rules" prevents junior players from playing in those leagues

topchowda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:12 PM
  #302
beauchamp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Laval, Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
Delusions of grandeur.

I guess this lockout is the best thing for you, cuz you don't have to worry about coming back down to reality. You can keep on living in your fantasy world where Ottawa are Stanley Cup champs for the next eight years because they are the only team in the league that improves while every other team remains the exact same. Congratulations.

Enough said.
I agree that he might be overrating his team (but was there really a need to be so acerbic about it?), but most serious students of the game would opt for the Sens organisation lock, stock and barrel over the Leafs organisation.

beauchamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:19 PM
  #303
beauchamp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Laval, Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
The Leafs got tremendous value for Kaberle. Most thought he would return a second rounder at most. It was a great trade.
Looks good in theory.

Too early to tell the final result.

And the poster you quoted forgot to include Liles in the trade as he was obtained for Boston 2nd round pick.

beauchamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:23 PM
  #304
beauchamp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Laval, Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00bxQb View Post
#30 Hockey Prospectus
#40 The Scouting Report
#14 The Hockey News

Seems pretty accepted that Saad has the potential to be a star.
Not according to these rankings.

A potential (useful?) NHL player, sure.

A star? Not so much.

beauchamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 03:41 PM
  #305
Tim Vezina Thomas
Dougie Time
 
Tim Vezina Thomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,834
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
The Leafs got tremendous value for Kaberle. Most thought he would return a second rounder at most. It was a great trade.
For both teams, yes.

Colborne is on a downward trend right now, and doesnt have the skillset to be anything other than a top six player. Havent seen much of him this year, but he didnt exactly impress me from what i saw at the end of last year. At this point I doubt he is anything to write home about in the future. Just my opinion tho.

Biggs could be the X factor here, I think he could end up being a tremendous top nine PF from what I've seen of him thus far this year. If Biggs develops into that, it ends up being a tremendous deal for you guys.

Plus, you got Liles indirectly from the deal as well, so thats an added bonus.

As a Bruins fan tho, I still make the deal 10 times out of 10, Kaberle had 11 points in the POs and althought didnt exactly "resurrect" our anemic PP, he played well enough.

Tim Vezina Thomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 06:23 PM
  #306
Nizdizzle
Salary cap? Huh?
 
Nizdizzle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,167
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
For both teams, yes.

Colborne is on a downward trend right now, and doesnt have the skillset to be anything other than a top six player. Havent seen much of him this year, but he didnt exactly impress me from what i saw at the end of last year. At this point I doubt he is anything to write home about in the future. Just my opinion tho.

Biggs could be the X factor here, I think he could end up being a tremendous top nine PF from what I've seen of him thus far this year. If Biggs develops into that, it ends up being a tremendous deal for you guys.

Plus, you got Liles indirectly from the deal as well, so thats an added bonus.

As a Bruins fan tho, I still make the deal 10 times out of 10, Kaberle had 11 points in the POs and althought didnt exactly "resurrect" our anemic PP, he played well enough.
I don't think anyone is particularly disappointing in that deal. Bruins won the cup, Leafs replaced Kaberle (Liles) and restocked the cupboard (Colborne/Biggs). Colborne looking like a bit of a lost cause, but Biggs is awesome.

Nizdizzle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-03-2012, 08:42 PM
  #307
svat
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 837
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
It's really not as hard to judge as people are making it out to be.

CBJ v PHI

The Premise: The Bluejackets sent a former 7th overall draft pick capable of netting 50 pts. a season (proven) along with an 8th overall draft pick for a top-six center that nearly led the league in scoring a while ago.

The Result: The Bluejackets received a disgruntled player that demanded out after just 39 games, and managed a disappointing 25 points - roughly the same production they were getting out of Jakub Voracek at his best. The draft pick by pure chance then turned into Sean Couturier who had a very good rookie season, shouldering the bulk of his team's defensive responsibilities.

EDGE PHI
(177 games/36 goals/90 points to 39 games/15 goals/25 points)


TOR v BOS

The Premise: Toronto, starved for a star forward of their own, sent two (top-5) first-round draft picks to Boston for a former 5th overall selection, proven capable of netting 30 goals a season.

The Result: Phil Kessel has been one of the most consistent goal-scorers around the league, managing a minimum of 30 goals over the last three seasons, and averaging a total of 67 points a season. This past season, Phil Kessel and his linemate Joffrey Lupul each managed to close out the season at a PPG pace, though Lupul only played 66 games. Through two seasons in boston, Seguin has averaged 20 goals, 45 points, has never topped 30 goals, and was scratched for multiple games during Boston's trip to the Stanley Cup Finals. ...Doug Hamilton has yet to play a game in the NHL, AHL, or ECHL.

EDGE TOR
(234 games/99 goals/201 points to 175 games/45 goals/99 points)


--------------------

I'd say the CJB trade was worse because of what they got. If someone wants to evaluate the Johnson trade as a standalone, that's their prerogative, but as of today they paid through their teeth for a flop. The Maple Leafs, one could argue, won their trade handily until either Seguin steps up or Hamilton develops into something special.

ahahahahaha i really hope this isn't a joke.

svat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2012, 01:41 AM
  #308
Atomos2
#theProspectsGrim
 
Atomos2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Guelph, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,560
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
I agree that he might be overrating his team (but was there really a need to be so acerbic about it?), but most serious students of the game would opt for the Sens organisation lock, stock and barrel over the Leafs organisation.
If you read the post before than you would realize I was only reciprocating the tone of the post before me. And I disagree, most serious students of the game would realize not to be fooled by the final standings last year and would notice there isn't a great amount of differences between these two organizations. Serious students of the game look between the lines and don't just believe that since team A finished better than team B, then team A is clearly the better organization now and in the future.

Even in the AHL, the marlies almost simulated the run the Bingmaton sens had the year before. The sens are a bubble team with decent prospects coming up just like the leafs are a bubble team with decent prospects coming up.

Now if you want to talk about history or about the pressure and negativity around the city then be my guest, because sens have the advantage in that part, but that has no bearing on what is happening in the present. The quality of the team is very similar.

Atomos2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2012, 08:07 PM
  #309
beauchamp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Laval, Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
(1) If you read the post before than you would realize I was only reciprocating the tone of the post before me. And I disagree, (2) most serious students of the game would realize not to be fooled by the final standings last year and would notice there isn't a great amount of differences between these two organizations. Serious students of the game look between the lines and don't just believe that since team A finished better than team B, then team A is clearly the better organization now and in the future.

Even in the AHL, the marlies almost simulated the run the Bingmaton sens had the year before. The sens are a bubble team with decent prospects coming up just like the leafs are a bubble team with decent prospects coming up.

Now if you want to talk about history or about the pressure and negativity around the city then be my guest, because sens have the advantage in that part, but that has no bearing on what is happening in the present. The quality of the team is very similar.
(1) Tit for tat is your philosophy? Ok. You'll probably learn better someday.

And why are you (falsely ) claiming that I didn't read the post you responded to?

Did you not quote it?

(2) When/where did I ever say this?

Much as it pains me to admit, the Sens are an organization on the upswing.

The Leafs are still stagnating, notwithstanding the glimmer of hope raised by their first 13 games last year.

beauchamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2012, 10:16 PM
  #310
Atomos2
#theProspectsGrim
 
Atomos2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Guelph, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,560
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
(1) Tit for tat is your philosophy? Ok. You'll probably learn better someday.

And why are you (falsely ) claiming that I didn't read the post you responded to?

Did you not quote it?

(2) When/where did I ever say this?

Much as it pains me to admit, the Sens are an organization on the upswing.

The Leafs are still stagnating, notwithstanding the glimmer of hope raised by their first 13 games last year.
(1) Meh, it's not really a philosophy, more of a reaction. "Rage writing"
And I just assumed you didn't read the post, because the way I read it, it felt more aggressive and more (for lack of a better word) arrogant than it needed to be.

(2) You said most serious students would opt for the sens organization without giving me any reasons why that would be true. So I took it as the impression that you based these theories off last years standings. I apologize if I'm wrong but you need to be clearer next time.

And I don't know if you heard about it, but the Sens were the surprise team of 2012. They weren't expected to make the playoffs. Now just because they made the playoffs everyone's opinions instantly change. A few years ago, Columbus made the playoffs too am I right. How was their future?

I can pump up Toronto saying they have 2 ppg players, several strong d prospects and such, but the truth is, Toronto is like Ottawa, not strong enough to face the big teams of the east, but have several positives in the line up. Unless you can tell me why these "serious students of the game" believe Ottawa is the better organization, there's no reason for me to take your word on it.


Last edited by Atomos2: 12-04-2012 at 10:32 PM.
Atomos2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2012, 10:54 PM
  #311
zeke
#TeamReimer
 
zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 27,836
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
I agree that he might be overrating his team (but was there really a need to be so acerbic about it?), but most serious students of the game would opt for the Sens organisation lock, stock and barrel over the Leafs organisation.
no real reason to.

Sub-30yr old talent:


Spezza (29) - Phaneuf (27)
Karlsson (22) - Kessel (25)
Michalek (28) - Lupul (29)
Turris (23) - VanRiemsdyk (23)
Cowen (22) - Gardiner (22)
XXXXXXXX - Grabovski (28)
XXXXXXXX - MacArthur (27)
XXXXXXXX - Reimer (24)
Regin (26) - Bozak (26)
Latendresse (26) - Kulemin (26)
Greening (26) - Gunnarsson (26)
Smith (24) - Franson (25)
Bishop (26) - Scrivens (26)
O'Brien (23) - McClement (29)
Daugavins (24) - Brown (26)


Lehner (21) - Rielly (18)
Silfverberg (22) - Kadri (22)
Stone (20) - Frattin (24)
Zibanejad (19) - Colborne (22)
Ceci (18) - Finn (18)
Noesen (19) - Biggs (19)
Puempel (19) - Percy (19)
Wiercioch (22) - Ashton (21)
Prince (20) - D'Amigo (21)
Pageau (20) - McKegg (20)
Claesson (20) - Blacker (21)
Petersson (22) - Deschamps (22)
DaCosta (23) - Abbott (24)
Hoffman (23) - Owuya (23)
Borowiecki (23) - Holzer (24)
Driedger (18) - Sparks (19)
XXXXXXXXX - Ross (20)
XXXXXXXXX - Leivo (19)
XXXXXXXXXX - Brown (18)


No top-end talent edge for the Sens, and a considerable depth edge for the Leafs.


Last edited by zeke: 12-05-2012 at 12:11 AM.
zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2012, 11:02 PM
  #312
VeddarRants
HEART AND SOUL
 
VeddarRants's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 12,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
no real reason to.

Sub-30yr old talent with a legit shot at being more than a bottom liner:


Spezza (29) - Phaneuf (27)
Karlsson (22) - Kessel (25)
Michalek (28) - Lupul (29)
Turris (23) - VanRiemsdyk (23)
Cowen (22) - Gardiner (22)
XXXXXXXX - Reimer (24)
XXXXXXXX - Grabovski (28)
XXXXXXXX - MacArthur (27)
Regin (26) - Bozak (26)
Latendresse (26) - Kulemin (26)
Greening (26) - Gunnarsson (26)
Smith (24) - Franson (25)
Bishop (26) - Scrivens (26)


Lehner (21) - Rielly (18)
Silfverberg (22) - Kadri (22)
Stone (20) - Frattin (24)
Zibanejad (19) - Colborne (22)
Ceci (18) - Finn (18)
Noesen (19) - Biggs (19)
Puempel (19) - Percy (19)
Wiercioch (22) - Ashton (21)
Prince (20) - D'Amigo (21)
Pageau (20) - McKegg (20)
Claesson (20) - Blacker (21)
Petersson (22) - Deschamps (22)
DaCosta (23) - Abbott (24)
Hoffman (23) - Owuya (23)
Driedger (18) - Sparks (19)
XXXXXXXXX - Leivo (19)
XXXXXXXXXX - Brown (18)


No top-end talent edge for the Sens, and a considerable depth edge for the Leafs.
Yet Ottawa will have a better record than the Leafs again.

VeddarRants is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-04-2012, 11:22 PM
  #313
zeke
#TeamReimer
 
zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 27,836
vCash: 500
they were a whole 6 wins better last year, that's true.

of course, their #2 forward, #2 dman, and #3 dman from last year are probably gone now.

zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-05-2012, 12:20 AM
  #314
VeddarRants
HEART AND SOUL
 
VeddarRants's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 12,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
they were a whole 6 wins better last year, that's true.

of course, their #2 forward, #2 dman, and #3 dman from last year are probably gone now.
Are you trying to say 12 points isn't a huge difference?

VeddarRants is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:46 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.