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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VIII: "The 11th Hour" Edition

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12-04-2012, 11:28 PM
  #351
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Lets say they drop the puck Jan 1st, would we be looking at about a 50-55 game season or so?

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12-04-2012, 11:31 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
Lets say they drop the puck Jan 1st, would we be looking at about a 50-55 game season or so?
I think so, and it could end around the 1st of May the regular season.

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12-04-2012, 11:55 PM
  #353
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Lets say they drop the puck Jan 1st, would we be looking at about a 50-55 game season or so?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a report saying the NHL still gets their full sponsorship money if a 61 game season is salvaged? Maybe they'll try to start around Christmas and reach that number, although I don't see how it's possible.

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12-05-2012, 12:10 AM
  #354
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a report saying the NHL still gets their full sponsorship money if a 61 game season is salvaged? Maybe they'll try to start around Christmas and reach that number, although I don't see how it's possible.
They would need a deal done and ratified by this weekend, maybe a 10 day training camp with a Christmas day start.

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12-05-2012, 12:13 AM
  #355
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Bettman said when they came up with the mid October proposal to try, and save the 82 game season that teams would only need a week for training camp. I think it would be at least 10 days though. Almost every team has a player overseas in Europe. All those players will need to get back.

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12-05-2012, 12:19 AM
  #356
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Same deal as with trade rumors now, guys. Only legitimate sources, not random no names on twitter with 30 followers.

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12-05-2012, 12:31 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Bleedred View Post
Bettman said when they came up with the mid October proposal to try, and save the 82 game season that teams would only need a week for training camp. I think it would be at least 10 days though. Almost every team has a player overseas in Europe. All those players will need to get back.

They don't need 10 days to get back. They can get back in 48 hours or less, plus another day to adjust to the American time. Then give it a few days of training camp to get the teams on board with their coach, and off they go in a week.

Last time, the lockout ended on January 11 and the first game was played on January 20. That means that from the day after the lockout (1/12) to the last day of training camp (1/19) was exactly a week.

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12-05-2012, 12:36 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Beacon View Post
They don't need 10 days to get back. They can get back in 48 hours or less, plus another day to adjust to the American time. Then give it a few days of training camp to get the teams on board with their coach, and off they go in a week.

Last time, the lockout ended on January 11 and the first game was played on January 20. That means that from the day after the lockout (1/12) to the last day of training camp (1/19) was exactly a week.
I just can't see them only going a week, but it can be done. Most guys have been in shape having informal practices and skates though so they really don't need long at all. Remember in 94/95 though they had their September training camp, and had preseason games before the league locked out which was the first week of October.

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12-05-2012, 12:45 AM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Bleedred View Post
I just can't see them only going a week, but it can be done. Most guys have been in shape having informal practices and skates though so they really don't need long at all. Remember in 94/95 though they had their September training camp, and had preseason games before the league locked out which was the first week of October.

I really don't understand why it was necessary to cancel the training camp and the preseason. The players would've been in better shape and the owners would've made some money from the preseason games. And it would get some fans watching so that they don't totally forget hockey by the time it comes back. It's a long time from April-June to next year, and if the season gets cancelled, having no hockey for almost a year and a half won't be good for the game.

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12-05-2012, 01:23 AM
  #360
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I really don't understand why it was necessary to cancel the training camp and the preseason. The players would've been in better shape and the owners would've made some money from the preseason games. And it would get some fans watching so that they don't totally forget hockey by the time it comes back. It's a long time from April-June to next year, and if the season gets cancelled, having no hockey for almost a year and a half won't be good for the game.
I agree, and it should have never gotten this far. Also in the next CBA please make it expire in June, and not mid September a week before camps are set to open! No more September 15th expiration from here on out. Just ensures there will be a lockout pretty much.

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12-05-2012, 01:40 AM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Bleedred View Post
I agree, and it should have never gotten this far. Also in the next CBA please make it expire in June, and not mid September a week before camps are set to open! No more September 15th expiration from here on out. Just ensures there will be a lockout pretty much.
this would be a horrific idea because the cup finals will have just happened i.e. parades, team events, parties. also, the draft and free agency. the whole reason the CBA expires right before camp opens is so that they can miss games instead of screwing up important team altering events that each club uses as essential building blocks. imagine if they did it mid season and there was a strike...regardless, no matter what, its management that has to change

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12-05-2012, 01:44 AM
  #362
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this would be a horrific idea because the cup finals will have just happened i.e. parades, team events, parties. also, the draft and free agency. the whole reason the CBA expires right before camp opens is so that they can miss games instead of screwing up important team altering events that each club uses as essential building blocks. imagine if they did it mid season and there was a strike...regardless, no matter what, its management that has to change
How about August?

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12-05-2012, 01:45 AM
  #363
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How about August?
August sounds a lot better.


Though I feel like it wouldn't make a difference if this were to happen again.

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12-05-2012, 01:54 AM
  #364
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Alright how about July 15th? Anything is better than September 15th.

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12-05-2012, 01:56 AM
  #365
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Alright how about July 15th? Anything is better than September 15th.
At this point, any date sooner than Sep. 15th. I just want hockey.

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12-05-2012, 02:00 AM
  #366
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Well apparently Crosby and Lemieux/Burkle were allowed to speak to each other for weeks now. Since when is that allowed? Or is it not considered breaking the rules if it's the Penguins?

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12-05-2012, 02:59 AM
  #367
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Personally, I expect a deal to be announced Tuesday/Wednesday of next week, though I would be thrilled with a Friday/Saturday announcement as Saturday is my birthday.

I think the teams will be given 7 days to bring their players back from Europe and get their affairs in order and the season will begin, 56 games or so. The first couple of weeks of hockey will probably be a little on the sloppy side. Predict the puck dropping on the 20th.

And the Rangers are going to be hoist a Cup in June. Hopefully the asterisk next to it will be nullified when they repeat next year!

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12-05-2012, 03:01 AM
  #368
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Well apparently Crosby and Lemieux/Burkle were allowed to speak to each other for weeks now. Since when is that allowed? Or is it not considered breaking the rules if it's the Penguins?
WHO CARES? I applaud it. They're trying to end the lockout. If I was in their position and I thought I could help get some traction and put the game back on the ice, I would be willing to take a whole lot of fines for 'breaking the rules'. I mean, imagine they have a deal in place and then Bettman says "we can't sign this deal because Penguins players and ownership broke some rules that led to this deal being proposed, so it's void". Why play the bitter "oh the Pens get away with it" card when it's for the better for EVERY fan of hockey?

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12-05-2012, 03:08 AM
  #369
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*** BRIGHT SIDE ALERT ***

1) If the season starts some time soon, one could argue that this lockout was rather advantageous to their Cup chances because it means we didn't have to play without Gaborik. Right after the playoffs, it was announced that he would be gone for half a year or approximately until Thanksgiving. The extra few weeks of the lockout gave him a chance to be fully healed and not to be rushed because the team was in trouble offensively.

2) We would also be playing with Michael Sauer on defense. He reported made "tremendous progress" over the summer, but was still not ready 3 months ago. However, 3.5 to 4 months (from September to the end of the year) is a long time, and a lot of things can heal in that time. By now, it is a year since his injury.

3) Finally, we also allowed Kreider to develop in the supercharged AHL (supercharged because it has some NHLers and middling players who'd normally move back and forth). Instead of him struggling in the NHL, getting frustrated and sometimes having to watch while sitting next to Sather, he's adjusting to pro hockey in Hartford.


This year's team is not very deep at all. In fact, we'd probably need to add a third line center and a third line right wing to the current team in order to make it a prime Cup competitor.

Take out Gaborik and Sauer, and suddenly the team is very, very thin.

Nash - Brad - Cally
Hagelin - Stepan - Pyatt
Kreider - Boyle - Rupp
Asham - Halpern - Haley

McDonagh - Girardi
Staal - Stralman
MDZ - Eminger

Are you impressed with the depth of this lineup? Because I sure as hell am not. The second line is terrible, and the right side of the defense is weak. In fact, the whole right side is terrible, both RW and RD. Cally is not a first liner, Pyatt is not a second liner, Rupp isn't a third liner, and Haley shouldn't be taking regular shift. Girardi is good, but I'm not happy with both Stralman and Eminger in the lineup at the same time for a long term.

Now imagine what would happen if we suffered a couple of injuries, which we surely would've. Take out, say, Callahan and Stepan injured guys. Or Nash and Boyle. Suddenly, we are having both Newbury and Kolarik taking regular shift for a dozen minutes a game.

Nash - Brad - Pyatt
Hagelin - Boyle - Rupp
Kreider - Halpern - Kolarik
Asham - Newbury - Haley

Jesus... how do you win games with that kind of a lineup?

Add in Gaborik, Sauer and a more mature Kreider, and suddenly this squad is looking much better. We'll see how things turn out, but playing games after our guys return/mature is probably better than having the above lineup.

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12-05-2012, 03:23 AM
  #370
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Agree with everything you wrote, Beacon.

Also agree we need at least one more quality top nine forward.

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12-05-2012, 03:31 AM
  #371
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Apparently the meetings are over and Daly & Fehr just addressed the media together.

-contsonika

I'd call it a GREAT sign that they did a joint press conference - not to mention that both used positive language.
Considering that the two sides, from any material perspective, were extremely close to each other before this -- I just can't help but to think that this is over now.

Save the season now and some damage is still probably done, but people forget in a hurry. Its only December. But, what should they do, cancel a full season because say 50k per team and year and one of the contractual issues (assuming they solved one of arb / 28/8)?

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12-05-2012, 03:33 AM
  #372
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Man, talk about a interestnig scenario for us if this thing is solved now.

1. We have a contender. Nash. RICH NASH will put on ranger blue in camp. Girardi, Callahan and co are well rested. And so forth.

2. We could spend month's just talking about what will happend next summer.

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12-05-2012, 03:56 AM
  #373
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Nobody talks about great progress unless the parties agreed on all the major issues with the minor details to be decided.

Let me give you an example from my practice. In a divorce case, nobody would say that they made major progress if the parties from being $500k apart to being $120k apart because nobody wants to make it look like the remaining gap is insignificant to them.

On the other hand, if you've resolved the financial issues, the legal reason for the divorce, child support, custody and visitation, etc., but now what's left to decide if "alternate weekends" for the father means week 1 and 3 or week 2 and 4. That would be tremendous progress because whether it's weeks 1&3 or weeks 2&4 is not a huge substantive issue, and given any level of good faith between the parties, there should be a quick settlement.

The bad news is that this can still take weeks more to negotiate if the parties get stubborn. Plus, there are cases when 99% of the settlement is negotiated, and all of a sudden one of the parties throws a hissy fit. However, I doubt this happens here with both parties losing money every day the lockout continues. And unlike a divorce where on each side you have one person speaking for himself, here you have a group of people and if one person throws a hissy fit, the rest of the people will all yell at him.

I expect there to be hockey in 2012.

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12-05-2012, 04:10 AM
  #374
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Nobody talks about great progress unless the parties agreed on all the major issues with the minor details to be decided.

Let me give you an example from my practice. In a divorce case, nobody would say that they made major progress if the parties from being $500k apart to being $120k apart because nobody wants to make it look like the remaining gap is insignificant to them.

On the other hand, if you've resolved the financial issues, the legal reason for the divorce, child support, custody and visitation, etc., but now what's left to decide if "alternate weekends" for the father means week 1 and 3 or week 2 and 4. That would be tremendous progress because whether it's weeks 1&3 or weeks 2&4 is not a huge substantive issue, and given any level of good faith between the parties, there should be a quick settlement.

The bad news is that this can still take weeks more to negotiate if the parties get stubborn. Plus, there are cases when 99% of the settlement is negotiated, and all of a sudden one of the parties throws a hissy fit. However, I doubt this happens here with both parties losing money every day the lockout continues. And unlike a divorce where on each side you have one person speaking for himself, here you have a group of people and if one person throws a hissy fit, the rest of the people will all yell at him.

I expect there to be hockey in 2012.
There was

But also, although this can be argued, given how the lockout has gone thus far, you would imagine there should be less emotion and irrationality involved in this case than in a divorce. Also, with the progress made, previous emotional differences should be easier to cast aside. More over, as you mentioned, with them losing money every day, it's unlikely they want to take additional weeks to hammer out that final 1%. I am inclined to agree with you completely once again, although I also don't want to get my hopes to high just yet.

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12-05-2012, 04:27 AM
  #375
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There was

But also, although this can be argued, given how the lockout has gone thus far, you would imagine there should be less emotion and irrationality involved in this case than in a divorce. Also, with the progress made, previous emotional differences should be easier to cast aside. More over, as you mentioned, with them losing money every day, it's unlikely they want to take additional weeks to hammer out that final 1%. I am inclined to agree with you completely once again, although I also don't want to get my hopes to high just yet.

Financial issues are easier to resolve them other stuff because you can come to a middle ground. Deciding the child support amount is easier than who gets custody. Car accident claims are easier to resolve than criminal cases. When it's money, it's "just money, so let's just come to a middle ground."

The trouble with the previous lockout was that it wasn't just money, it was whether or not to have the salary cap. That's a structural issue. You couldn't just come to a middle ground.

This time, it's just money, which is why I have always been optimistic about not losing the season. The reason it got delayed as much as it did is that the NHLPA felt like it was totally defeated last time, and were constantly negotiating against themselves. This time they have been very reluctant to come to any kind of an agreement. But ultimately, this was a money dispute and you don't kill a season (with all the money that comes from it) because of a financial dispute.

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