HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > International Tournaments
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-05-2012, 03:44 AM
  #251
Royal Canuck
Go Canucks Go!
 
Royal Canuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Victoria, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,846
vCash: 500
In Junior hockey? Yes.

In Major league? No. Russia simply doesn't have the defense that Canada, Sweden and the USA has.

__________________

Twitter |HFBoards Contact | Blog
PSN - TBennz
"You're never a loser until you quit trying. " - Mike Ditka
Royal Canuck is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:54 AM
  #252
Mr Kanadensisk
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
Professional athletes are in a demographic that doesn't really matter where they live because the their income ensures a quality of life regardless. Russians come to North America because it's the highest standard league in their profession. Same reasons Americans sign in countries like Mexico for soccer.
Sometimes being a foreigner with money makes it worse too. Are you familiar with the Stacy Dallman story?

Mr Kanadensisk is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 07:04 AM
  #253
Mr Kanadensisk
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
Why is USA being spoken of as the 2nd or 3rd best hockey nation? They are 5th, at best. Canada Russia Sweden and Finland would crush them in a best of anything higher than 1 serie. The olympics is the best international tournament, sure, but everyone could see several good nations underperform, and Miller playing like a beast.
This is a common misconception amongst Europeans. Not only does the US have the second most people playing hockey and also arenas by quite a large margin over any country in Europe, they have also done extremely well at the men's best on best level. The US has made it to the finals in 4 of the last 7 best on best tournaments, winning of course in '96. Again this is quite a bit better than any European team.

The problem is that the US don't put a high value on international hockey and have an even harder time than Canada in getting players to go to the World Championships. They are however a pretty clear number 2 in my opinion.

Mr Kanadensisk is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 07:07 AM
  #254
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 3,476
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post

Canada is the best hockey nation overall, but they are not dominant or infallible, and are very beatable. Most Europeans recognize and acknowledge this. It would be nice if some Canadians showed some humility however, and realised that they are not that far ahead internationally speaking, and can be beaten in any tournament at any time. Ice hockey does not revolve around you, however much you may think it does.
It would also be nice if some Europeans recognize that when someone challenges Canada's place as #1 by dismissing best-on-best results because they favour a team(s) over another (i.e. home ice, refs, ice size, travel) but includes WHC results that are hindered by player availability and are arguably weighed even more towards euro teams (lower quality refs, ice size, travel) that it is little more than baiting.

It seems like some Euros just want to try to take a position of superiority by highlighting Canadian "arrogance".

daver is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 07:20 AM
  #255
Acallabeth
Play fair, post fair
 
Acallabeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Kemerovo, Russia
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 4,424
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to Acallabeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
WHC results that are hindered by player availability and are arguably weighed even more towards euro teams (lower quality refs, ice size, travel) that it is little more than baiting.
How does this help the Euros only?

On topic: no. Always has been #1 [/homer]

Acallabeth is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 09:16 AM
  #256
Jonimaus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Lund
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,473
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
The problem is that the US don't put a high value on international hockey and have an even harder time than Canada in getting players to go to the World Championships. They are however a pretty clear number 2 in my opinion.
You think Sweden, Finland and the others have an easy time getting their stars? The only reason we had as many as we did last year was because it was played in Sweden. Other than that we usually field a SEL/KHL team with a few lower tier NHL players. Sorry, that argument doesn't work since it's the same for everyone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
I don't think you know what the World Cup is in hockey.
If you're reffering to canada cup noone cares about anymore, just stop.

Jonimaus is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 09:33 AM
  #257
jedimyrmidon
Registered User
 
jedimyrmidon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 615
vCash: 500
To be the #1 nation in hockey, you need a mixture of things such as success at the junior level and men's level internationally, depth in terms of quality players, impact players in professional leagues with the NHL being the best, etc.

I think that depth is often overlooked as a major factor. Sweden, Russia, Canada, Finland and the US can all assemble very competitive teams. The pool of impact players to choose from is much larger for Canada however. Doesn't mean they're guaranteed to win because certain teams can go on winning streaks or push forward through a hot goaltender, etc. Canada could really ice two teams and, again, doesn't mean they would both be guaranteed to medal, but, like other darkhorse teams, if something goes right and they gain momentum then watch out.

Oh, and performance at the World Championships in the Spring hardly count. The timing is atrocious where essentially anyone the Canada and the US send over have just ended a long gruelling season, and the mental focus is just not there (or at least diminished).

Also, the format is pretty dumb with no bye to the semifinal anymore. Seems to favor random winners even more. For example, last year, Canada wins most of its matches in the roundrobin, outscoring its opponents by a wide margin, placing first in its group. Then, they have enter their elimination match against Slovakia and have a bad game. Result: out of medal contention, automatic 4th place in the tournament.

jedimyrmidon is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 09:52 AM
  #258
Yakushev72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,418
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Odd, since I'm looking at the list of both the SS and the list of 31 players invited to Novogorsk for selection camp, other than 3 names, they are pretty much identical.
I listed the players who were sure bets to be in Ufa, and said nothing about being invited to training camp. A number of players impressed sufficiently in the SSS to merit an invitation to Novogorsk. That was the purpose of bringing them over. The whole purpose of this idiotic line of discussion is to somehow demonstrate that Canada is superior because they had more different players playing in the SSS. It only proved that, like anywhere else, only a small cadre of CHL players are ready for international competition. We all know the names of the guys who will show up for Canada in Ufa - the rest were just background extras!

Yakushev72 is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 10:01 AM
  #259
Yakushev72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,418
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
So 40% are 100% guaranteed to be there, if even 3 more from the SSS mk it, more than 50% of team Russia will be from the SSS. And lets be honest, they best forwards and goalie were in the SSS. They sent their best to the SSS.


It seems Russia sent a team to gel, where Canada used it as a prospect feeler.

Neither is a bad idea, but to say it is proof Russia is now superior is laughable.
No one among Russia fans claimed that Russia is superior. As I go back over the posts, I don't find a single one alleging that Russia is Number 1. This is a "what have you done for me lately" World, and superiority is in the here and now. Canada has a chance to demonstrate to demonstrate superiority by going undefeated in Ufa, and winning each game by a large margin (6 or 7 goals). Merely winning and superiority are radically different concepts. If Canada wins the Gold Medal game by one goal, they have failed to demonstrate superiority.


Last edited by slocal: 12-05-2012 at 06:39 PM. Reason: don't flame
Yakushev72 is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 10:19 AM
  #260
Leo Trollmarov
I was in the pool!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,680
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
No one among Russia fans claimed that Russia is superior. As I go back over the posts, I don't find a single one alleging that Russia is Number 1. This is a "what have you done for me lately" World, and superiority is in the here and now. Canada has a chance to demonstrate to demonstrate superiority by going undefeated in Ufa, and winning each game by a large margin (6 or 7 goals). Merely winning and superiority are radically different concepts. If Canada wins the Gold Medal game by one goal, they have failed to demonstrate superiority.
Do I think Canada is a better hockey country than Russia, Yes, but not by as wide of a margin as many like to think.

Now that that is out of the way, I wasn't disputing anything about Russia/Canada hockey superiority. It was purely disproving your "facts" You stated that Canada had a core group of players over the entire SSS with a few outliers.

Quote:
Nor did the CHL field six completely different teams for all 6 games. They had their core players that we see time and again, and then a few outliers who were getting auditions.
And that Russia used different players in all 6 games.

Quote:
Were you aware that Russia used different players in all 6 games of the SSS?
Which also isn't true. The numbers are pretty clear cut.

Now if we want to get into who is superior... to your last comment, what if Russia wins by 1 goal? Superiority or no?

In my books there is always 1 top dog, and that is the team that wins the most. And over the past 20 years, there has been one country to prove this time and time again on the biggest stages.


Last edited by slocal: 12-05-2012 at 06:40 PM. Reason: edited quote
Leo Trollmarov is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 10:27 AM
  #261
SirKillalot
Registered User
 
SirKillalot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Norway
Country: Norway
Posts: 4,759
vCash: 500
Best on best is World Championships and Olympics. No more, no less.

So what if some players aren't available or refuse. That's your nations problem. It's still best nations in the world vs. best nations in the world tournament.


And it's equal for all the top teams. And, it isn't always the best players who is missing because of the Stanley Cup, many is missing because the National Team doesn't go out and say that if players say no, they won't be asked later. In some of the nations there really are bad attitudes about representing their nation. No pride.

SirKillalot is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 10:34 AM
  #262
Leo Trollmarov
I was in the pool!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,680
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirKillalot View Post
Best on best is World Championships and Olympics. No more, no less.

So what if some players aren't available or refuse. That's your nations problem. It's still best nations in the world vs. best nations in the world tournament.


And it's equal for all the top teams. And, it isn't always the best players who is missing because of the Stanley Cup, many is missing because the National Team doesn't go out and say that if players say no, they won't be asked later. In some of the nations there really are bad attitudes about representing their nation. No pride.
To be the best, don't you have to beat the best?

Also to say Canadians have no pride in representing their country is laughable. That is higher on many kids lists than even the NHL.

I wish the WHC was more important, but in NA it just isn't we have the NHL playoffs and that is number 1. If it was pushed back a month or 2, you would see a big increase in viewership/player attendance and then it would become a true best on best.

Leo Trollmarov is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 10:35 AM
  #263
Mr Kanadensisk
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
You think Sweden, Finland and the others have an easy time getting their stars? The only reason we had as many as we did last year was because it was played in Sweden. Other than that we usually field a SEL/KHL team with a few lower tier NHL players. Sorry, that argument doesn't work since it's the same for everyone.
Everyone except Russia has a hard time getting their top players to attend the WC these days, but the USA has the biggest trouble. The WC just means nothing in the US. I would guess that most NHL fans there don't even know the tournament exists.

Mr Kanadensisk is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 10:47 AM
  #264
Frank the Tank
The Oiler Tankers
 
Frank the Tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Chicago, IL
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,413
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirKillalot View Post
Best on best is World Championships and Olympics. No more, no less.

So what if some players aren't available or refuse. That's your nations problem. It's still best nations in the world vs. best nations in the world tournament.
In your own explanation you provide numerous reasons for why the WHC are not best-on-best. And how is it a nation's problem if their best players are successful in the NHL playoffs? Instead, it demonstrates that such nations produce world class players that achieve success in best league in the world.

Quote:
And it's equal for all the top teams. And, it isn't always the best players who is missing because of the Stanley Cup, many is missing because the National Team doesn't go out and say that if players say no, they won't be asked later. In some of the nations there really are bad attitudes about representing their nation. No pride.
Like it or not, a majority of Canadian and American players do not view the WHC as prestigious because it is held during the NHL playoffs. It is viewed as a "loser" or runners-up tournament accessible only to those that are not competing for the Stanley Cup, the big prize. I understand European players have, in general, a more positive view of the WHC because they grew up with a different view towards the tournament. Unless the IIHF changes the schedule (and perhaps rotates the tournament to NA more often) the Canadian and Americans will always be sending an "expeditionary force" team to the Euro-focused WHC.

Frank the Tank is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 10:49 AM
  #265
smitty10
Registered User
 
smitty10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,167
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Any decline is likely a result of the "Russian factor," but the Swedish, Finnish, Czech and Slovakian programs have grown so much in quality that I beiieve their numbers will increase in the NHL. But I agree that the NHL is no longer the sole barometer of quality.
Slovakia's quality of talent has improved/grown? I don't think so..

smitty10 is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 10:50 AM
  #266
Mr Writer
Registered User
 
Mr Writer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,758
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Please Yakushev, let's keep your fantasies out of this. If you have tucked youself into bed already please get up immediately.

Seriously though, anyone who follows the KHL knows the story which involves an American woman in Kazakhstan. I do suggest you read up a bit.
It's unfortunate what happened. Stacy did a lot of good work in organizing relief for the families of the Yaroslavl tragedy but she delved a little too deep into political life, corruption etc.

Mr Writer is online now  
Old
12-05-2012, 10:57 AM
  #267
Mr Kanadensisk
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirKillalot View Post
Best on best is World Championships and Olympics. No more, no less.

So what if some players aren't available or refuse. That's your nations problem. It's still best nations in the world vs. best nations in the world tournament.


And it's equal for all the top teams. And, it isn't always the best players who is missing because of the Stanley Cup, many is missing because the National Team doesn't go out and say that if players say no, they won't be asked later. In some of the nations there really are bad attitudes about representing their nation. No pride.
Don't worry, if there is something important going on in Europe Canadians will show up. You'd think after two world wars and almost 100 million dead guys like you would have learned to cool it just a bit on the European nationalism thing.

Anyway, I would say no tournament can claim to be a best on best if Norway's mens hockey team doesn't attend!

Mr Kanadensisk is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 12:07 PM
  #268
canuck2010
Registered User
 
canuck2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 769
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirKillalot View Post
Best on best is World Championships and Olympics. No more, no less.

So what if some players aren't available or refuse. That's your nations problem. It's still best nations in the world vs. best nations in the world tournament.


And it's equal for all the top teams. And, it isn't always the best players who is missing because of the Stanley Cup, many is missing because the National Team doesn't go out and say that if players say no, they won't be asked later. In some of the nations there really are bad attitudes about representing their nation. No pride.
The "World Championship" has never been best on best. Actually the Stanley Cup playoffs help level the playing field for second tier countries which is good for the game.

canuck2010 is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 12:20 PM
  #269
Yakushev72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,418
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Do I think Canada is a better hockey country than Russia, Yes, but not by as wide of a margin as many like to think.

Now that that is out of the way, I wasn't disputing anything about Russia/Canada hockey superiority. It was purely disproving your "facts" You stated that Canada had a core group of players over the entire SSS with a few outliers.



And that Russia used different players in all 6 games.



Which also isn't true. The numbers are pretty clear cut.

Now if we want to get into who is superior... to your last comment, what if Russia wins by 1 goal? Superiority or no?

In my books there is always 1 top dog, and that is the team that wins the most. And over the past 20 years, there has been one country to prove this time and time again on the biggest stages.
Is Russia superior if it beats Canada by 1 goal? Of course not.

From the 1970's through the early 1990's, Canada and the Soviet Union were dead even at a minimum. From 1992 through 2004, Russian hockey plummeted because there were no funds available, and by 2005 a recovery and reconstruction in Russian hockey occurred that is starting to produce some real depth and quality. So your statistics will be skewed if you take a 20-year sample, because you are dealing with completely incomparable realities.

Yakushev72 is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 12:53 PM
  #270
Leo Trollmarov
I was in the pool!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,680
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Is Russia superior if it beats Canada by 1 goal? Of course not.

From the 1970's through the early 1990's, Canada and the Soviet Union were dead even at a minimum. From 1992 through 2004, Russian hockey plummeted because there were no funds available, and by 2005 a recovery and reconstruction in Russian hockey occurred that is starting to produce some real depth and quality. So your statistics will be skewed if you take a 20-year sample, because you are dealing with completely incomparable realities.
I think this might be the first time anyone has ever said a 20 year sample for sports is invalid. Whatever the reason may be, Russia was not as good as Canada in that time period. They brought their best and it just wasn't good enough. they are getting better and are near the top, but not THE top.

Someone has to be the best, in your opinion who is the best. I don't think games have to be a blow out if 1 team is almost always doing the winning over a long period of time.

Also are you ready to admit you were wrong about the SSS, so we can move past that?

Leo Trollmarov is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 12:54 PM
  #271
PhilaFlyers
Registered User
 
PhilaFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 8,262
vCash: 500
No.
Canada.

PhilaFlyers is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 01:25 PM
  #272
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 3,476
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Is Russia superior if it beats Canada by 1 goal? Of course not.

From the 1970's through the early 1990's, Canada and the Soviet Union were dead even at a minimum. From 1992 through 2004, Russian hockey plummeted because there were no funds available, and by 2005 a recovery and reconstruction in Russian hockey occurred that is starting to produce some real depth and quality. So your statistics will be skewed if you take a 20-year sample, because you are dealing with completely incomparable realities.
Based on what? Canada lost one of six best on best in that time.

daver is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 02:05 PM
  #273
Xokkeu
Registered User
 
Xokkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Frozen
Country: Antarctica
Posts: 4,617
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
You think Sweden, Finland and the others have an easy time getting their stars? The only reason we had as many as we did last year was because it was played in Sweden. Other than that we usually field a SEL/KHL team with a few lower tier NHL players. Sorry, that argument doesn't work since it's the same for everyone.




If you're reffering to canada cup noone cares about anymore, just stop.
You brought up the World Cup. Are you crazy?

Xokkeu is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 02:07 PM
  #274
Zine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 8,836
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I don't think I shifted the topic at all and by the way where did I say cultural adjuments can never affect player performance? I would love to discuss this with you but please go back a read what I have posted so I don't have to repeat things over and over.

I believe the main challenge for players is adjusting to the different rink size and rules between NA and Europe. Again it is hard to generalize, some players will adjust quickly, some may take half a season or more, some may find they can't adjust at all.

Also I think we have to admit there is a huge difference in the motivation for a player to adjust, for example an established NHLer looking for conditioning is very different from someone like Dallman who needs the job.

Yes the difference in style of game is the #1 barrier (this includes rink size and rules, plus much more), but that doesn't nullify that off-ice barriers play an important factor in on-ice performance. Of course it varies per individual, but the overall impact can't be dismissed. Common sense should tell us this....Xokkeu even countered your soccer argument with several examples.

Note: One thing the NHL learned from the 1st wave of Soviet imports was that assistance in off-ice integration is essential for success. If off-ice cultural barriers didn't greatly affect on-ice performance, there'd be little incentive for NHL teams to do as such.

Zine is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 02:48 PM
  #275
CoolForumNamePending
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,055
vCash: 500
I don't get why so many people think the Canada Cups were always 'best vs. best' and all competing countries held the tournament with same high regard and importance as Canada does/did. That clearly doesn't seem to be the case.

1976 Canada CUp

Quote:
...analysts ranked the Soviets as only the fourth best team entering the tournament. They chose to leave most of its elite players home for reasons that remain unclear. Officially, Soviet officials said many of their players were suffering from fatigue, though goaltender Vladislav Tretiak later claimed the omissions were the result of a power struggle between Olympic coach Boris Kulagin and Canada Cup team coach Viktor Tikhonov and that the former sought to undermine the latter by forcing him to coach a weaker team. The Soviets downplayed the importance of the tournament, stating their true focus was the World Championships and the Winter Olympics. As a result, they sent a much younger, "experimental" team to Canada
1991 Canada Cup

Quote:
The team representing the USSR was relatively weak compared to past tournaments, it did not have many of its top stars due to severe political turmoil at home, many players declining to play for the team, and purposely left off the roster (such as Pavel Bure, Vladimir Konstantinov, etc.) for fears of defection.
I believe some of the same could have been said of the Czech team as well.

For the record I certainly don't think the Canada Cups should be dismissed I just think this is stuff we should keep in mind before we go around down playing other's accomplishments while bragging about Canada's.

CoolForumNamePending is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:34 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.