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Red Sox/MLB 2012 Thread Part XX-Time for Rebuilding

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Old
12-05-2012, 07:48 AM
  #926
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Originally Posted by Hnidy Hnight View Post
I like chavez. Championship caliber backup/bat off the bench if that makes sense at all
Great. Just what a last place team needs. A broken down 35 yr old player to get then into 4th place in the AL East. Get real.

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12-05-2012, 07:58 AM
  #927
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Great. Just what a last place team needs. A broken down 35 yr old player to get then into 4th place in the AL East. Get real.
This exactly why I don't get the positive reactions from some here over these signings. They're still going to suck, just not as bad as they would had they bitten the bullet and just went with a youth movement. By adding Napoli, Gomes, Victorino, and whomever else they sign, they're still going to be a crap team, but slightly better than last place. So by adding these guys, they're only hurting their positioning for the draft because it's not like these moves will actually make them a playoff caliber team or compete for a wildcard. Most objective fans can see that, so who exactly do the Sox FO think they're fooling with this nonsense?

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12-05-2012, 08:12 AM
  #928
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This exactly why I don't get the positive reactions from some here over these signings. They're still going to suck, just not as bad as they would had they bitten the bullet and just went with a youth movement. By adding Napoli, Gomes, Victorino, and whomever else they sign, they're still going to be a crap team, but slightly better than last place. So by adding these guys, they're only hurting their positioning for the draft because it's not like these moves will actually make them a playoff caliber team or compete for a wildcard. Most objective fans can see that, so who exactly do the Sox FO think they're fooling with this nonsense?
Ugh LSCII, I just don't see your logic here. What budding young star is being held back by these signings? Bogaerts isn't ready yet and the second he is, he'll play. Same with JBJ. Same with Barnes. So what member of our youth movement do you want to hand a spot?

And if you're thinking Kalish and Gomez, please. Kalish might end up a 4th outfielder, and Gomez had enough time to prove his "value". And again, if you think for a second a team with the league's highest price tickets is going to field a handful of mediocre-ceiling rookies (and or rush a few potential stars) to save a ton of money, especially after the last two years, you're crazy. It's never going to happen.

Just be thankful these deals are 3 years max and spots will be open for the precious youth when the time comes. Oh, and let's not forget to get excited about our new crappy outfeilder with the double ear flaps and the declining skill level.

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12-05-2012, 08:18 AM
  #929
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Ugh LSCII, I just don't see your logic here. What budding young star is being held back by these signings? Bogaerts isn't ready yet and the second he is, he'll play. Same with JBJ. Same with Barnes. So what member of our youth movement do you want to hand a spot?

And if you're thinking Kalish and Gomez, please. Kalish might end up a 4th outfielder, and Gomez had enough time to prove his "value". And again, if you think for a second a team with the league's highest price tickets is going to field a handful of mediocre-ceiling rookies (and or rush a few potential stars) to save a ton of money, especially after the last two years, you're crazy. It's never going to happen.

Just be thankful these deals are 3 years max and spots will be open for the precious youth when the time comes. Oh, and let's not forget to get excited about our new crappy outfeilder with the double ear flaps and the declining skill level.
I think you're missing my greater point. It's not whether these signings are holding anyone back, it's just they don't do anything other than make this team marginally better. The team is still going to be terrible, so what's the point of overpaying for garbage? If you're going to be terrible, why not embrace it and see what some of the younger guys they have can do if given a chance. Roll with Kalish, Iglesias, Lavarnway, etc, and just see what happens. Either way, you'll know what you have (if anything) in them. The net of this is simple, IMO: It's not like finishing 4th instead of 5th in the division is a great achievement, so what's the point, really?

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12-05-2012, 08:25 AM
  #930
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I think you're missing my greater point. It's not whether these signings are holding anyone back, it's just they don't do anything other than make this team marginally better. The team is still going to be terrible, so what's the point of overpaying for garbage? If you're going to be terrible, why not embrace it and see what some of the younger guys they have can do if given a chance. Roll with Kalish, Iglesias, Lavarnway, etc, and just see what happens. Either way, you'll know what you have (if anything) in them. The net of this is simple, IMO: It's not like finishing 4th instead of 5th in the division is a great achievement, so what's the point, really?
Who else are they gonna pay LSCII? As a business, you can't take in a ton of revenue and then just sit on it. It's a PR non-starter. So you might not be happy with the quality of guys they've signed, but their options have been limited. They can't just punt until their youth is ready (and any good) or the free agent market is deep and good enough to buy a championship caliber team.

Moreover, you can't throw a bunch of mediocre at best kids because it's terrible for their development. You need them playing on occasion and getting a chance to watch from the dugout. You don't just throw them all in there and hope for the best, and particularly when none of those three portend to be anything other than marginal.

The current roster, with a starter, is decent. Not terrible at all. Not great. With a few injuries on other teams that roster could definitely get in the playoffs. Go have a look at the Yankees and Blue Jays and tell me those teams are guaranteed of anything. Neither is very good. And the Orioles will not repeat last season's miracle.

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12-05-2012, 08:28 AM
  #931
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Great. Just what a last place team needs. A broken down 35 yr old player to get then into 4th place in the AL East. Get real.
You meanie! Never suggested they pick him up. Said I liked the player, gave an example of a situation where he's a good fit.

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I think you're missing my greater point. It's not whether these signings are holding anyone back, it's just they don't do anything other than make this team marginally better. The team is still going to be terrible, so what's the point of overpaying for garbage? If you're going to be terrible, why not embrace it and see what some of the younger guys they have can do if given a chance. Roll with Kalish, Iglesias, Lavarnway, etc, and just see what happens. Either way, you'll know what you have (if anything) in them. The net of this is simple, IMO: It's not like finishing 4th instead of 5th in the division is a great achievement, so what's the point, really?
Good seats still available

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12-05-2012, 08:29 AM
  #932
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I think the logic is that you are going to try to field a fairly talented team with the right character, and hope that you catch lightning in a bottle. Boston has enough money that they don't have to lay down for a couple seasons, they can pay for a few guys and take a shot. So why not?

I agree with BP13, we aren't holding anyone back, when they are ready, they will play; but no reason to just throw away a few seasons. Roll the dice on some short contracts and hope for the best; if it doesn't pan out; you still have all your prospects coming through the system for the future. If it does, then it's win-win.

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12-05-2012, 08:56 AM
  #933
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I think the logic is that you are going to try to field a fairly talented team with the right character, and hope that you catch lightning in a bottle. Boston has enough money that they don't have to lay down for a couple seasons, they can pay for a few guys and take a shot. So why not?

I agree with BP13, we aren't holding anyone back, when they are ready, they will play; but no reason to just throw away a few seasons. Roll the dice on some short contracts and hope for the best; if it doesn't pan out; you still have all your prospects coming through the system for the future. If it does, then it's win-win.
This is really nothing other than a sham by the FO to give the air of them trying to field a competitive team, all while not actually doing so. This is just a straight money grab marketing ploy to fool people. Have fun with that, if you want, I will pass. I'll still watch the games and want them to win, but there are no illusions as to what this team really is at this point. If they truly wanted to get better, they would have taken the money they're wasting on Victorino and given it to Haren, or taken a run at Kuroda (you know, since it would help them while hurting their biggest rival). Instead, they're trying to add guys who can hit for some power but can't play a lick of defense (SV was decent defensively at one point, but he's dropping off quickly as he's lost more than a step). It's going to be a real enjoyable season watching Gomes and Napoli either hit a HR or strike out.

Again, you can be of the belief that hope spring eternal, but this team as it's constituted today is going to be terrible.

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12-05-2012, 08:57 AM
  #934
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You meanie! Never suggested they pick him up. Said I liked the player, gave an example of a situation where he's a good fit.



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12-05-2012, 08:59 AM
  #935
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This is really nothing other than a sham by the FO to give the air of them trying to field a competitive team, all while not actually doing so. This is just a straight money grab marketing ploy to fool people. Have fun with that, if you want, I will pass. I'll still watch the games and want them to win, but there are no illusions as to what this team really is at this point. If they truly wanted to get better, they would have taken the money they're wasting on Victorino and given it to Haren, or taken a run at Kuroda (you know, since it would help them while hurting their biggest rival). Instead, they're trying to add guys who can hit for some power but can't play a lick of defense (SV was decent defensively at one point, but he's dropping off quickly as he's lost more than a step). It's going to be a real enjoyable season watching Gomes and Napoli either hit a HR or strike out.

Again, you can be of the belief that hope spring eternal, but this team as it's constituted today is going to be terrible.
I've cheered for this team through worse times than I expect this year to be!!

And if they do stink it up; hopefully that will clean out the pink hats so I can get into a few more games like the old days!!

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12-05-2012, 09:09 AM
  #936
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I've cheered for this team through worse times than I expect this year to be!!

And if they do stink it up; hopefully that will clean out the pink hats so I can get into a few more games like the old days!!
You must have missed this past season because there were plenty of seats available for walk up on most of the games...

I too have rooted for worse teams, but that's not what bothers me. It's the smarmy attitude of this ownership group, playing this pretend game like they're really motivated to win. Clearly with the dumping of all that money last year, and the signing marginal stiffs for next, they are not. They were when they got here, but that fundamentally shifted once they won a couple of World Series. Now it's devolved into a blatant cash grab and what they're singularly motivated to do is separate the fan from their money. If the ownership isn't truly championship driven, then what do you really have? Basically, don't serve me up a turd sandwich and expect me to ask for seconds. It's laughable.

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12-05-2012, 09:17 AM
  #937
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You must have missed this past season because there were plenty of seats available for walk up on most of the games...

I too have rooted for worse teams, but that's not what bothers me. It's the smarmy attitude of this ownership group, playing this pretend game like they're really motivated to win. Clearly with the dumping of all that money last year, and the signing marginal stiffs for next, they are not. They were when they got here, but that fundamentally shifted once they won a couple of World Series. Now it's devolved into a blatant cash grab and what they're singularly motivated to do is separate the fan from their money. If the ownership isn't truly championship driven, then what do you really have? Basically, don't serve me up a turd sandwich and expect me to ask for seconds. It's laughable.
That's what bothers me as well. The constant sell job......of everything. I haven't checked today, but yesterday every ticket pack for 2013 was still available. Why pay face value when the secondary market lets you see what the forcast will be like and at a fraction of the cost?

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12-05-2012, 09:21 AM
  #938
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You must have missed this past season because there were plenty of seats available for walk up on most of the games...

I too have rooted for worse teams, but that's not what bothers me. It's the smarmy attitude of this ownership group, playing this pretend game like they're really motivated to win. Clearly with the dumping of all that money last year, and the signing marginal stiffs for next, they are not. They were when they got here, but that fundamentally shifted once they won a couple of World Series. Now it's devolved into a blatant cash grab and what they're singularly motivated to do is separate the fan from their money. If the ownership isn't truly championship driven, then what do you really have? Basically, don't serve me up a turd sandwich and expect me to ask for seconds. It's laughable.
Can you name me one free agent available this offseason who would have been more than a "marginal stiff"? They needed outfielders, a 1b, a SS and two starters. They got two outfielders (a #4 and a top 3), probably the best available hitting first baseman, and there's a ton of time left. Now I hate the Victorino signing, but you're making it sound like they're passing over better options? Hamilton and Greinke aren't gonna sign short-term deals, and if you're so high on the promise of our youth, you don't want them on long-term deals. So who exactly should they sign?

And if your answer to that is "nobody, play the kids", I again say that's completely, 100% unrealistic, and I know you know that. No big market team coming off these latest two seasons is going to play Gomez, Kalish, Lavarnway, Iglesias etc. on a nightly basis. This isn't Kansas City. Are they supposed to suffer the daily ripping in the media for charging the league's highest prices for a team they know will suck? Or are you honestly expecting them to lower ticket prices when they know they don't have to?

You're simply not articulating a realistic strategy. You're just venting. Lay out a reasonable strategy for this season that makes baseball and business sense. You can't ignore the latter.

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12-05-2012, 09:26 AM
  #939
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That's what bothers me as well. The constant sell job......of everything. I haven't checked today, but yesterday every ticket pack for 2013 was still available. Why pay face value when the secondary market lets you see what the forcast will be like and at a fraction of the cost?
They are the only game in town in a town that loves baseball and has supported the league's highest ticket prices for years. As an individual fan you might look to the secondary market, and as pessimists you all might laugh at the sellout streak, but fact is they do sell enough seats to honestly claim sellouts like any other team would. So they do not need to lower prices. They are making a profit.

So as the purveyors of a product that makes them tons of money, do you honestly expect them not to market the hell out of their product? I mean have you guys spent any time in New York and seen the Yankees marketing engine?

Look I am as turned off by Lucky and the Dentist as much as anyone, but the knocks are getting absurd now. These guys are running a business, and a profitable one. Until they start losing money or demand falls a ton, they're going to stick with the plan, and they should!

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12-05-2012, 09:26 AM
  #940
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You must have missed this past season because there were plenty of seats available for walk up on most of the games...

I too have rooted for worse teams, but that's not what bothers me. It's the smarmy attitude of this ownership group, playing this pretend game like they're really motivated to win. Clearly with the dumping of all that money last year, and the signing marginal stiffs for next, they are not. They were when they got here, but that fundamentally shifted once they won a couple of World Series. Now it's devolved into a blatant cash grab and what they're singularly motivated to do is separate the fan from their money. If the ownership isn't truly championship driven, then what do you really have? Basically, don't serve me up a turd sandwich and expect me to ask for seconds. It's laughable.
When the vast majority of your fanbase is under the belief that Bobby V cost the team about 20 games in the standings and Farrell is the chosen one, that's basically the fans saying "Ah yes, waiter, I'll have the turd sandwich on rye"

As an objective observer of the Red Sox, I thought they should have cut Ortiz loose and when with a youth movement. Well, they are doing the complete opposite and most Red Sox fans I talk to or read on the internet are happier than pigs in **** about these signings.

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12-05-2012, 09:27 AM
  #941
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When the vast majority of your fanbase is under the belief that Bobby V cost the team about 20 games in the standings and Farrell is the chosen one, that basically the fans saying "Ah yes, waiter, I'll have the turd sandwich on rye"

As an objective observer of the Red Sox, I thought they should have cut Ortiz loose and when with a youth movement. Well, they are doing the complete opposite and most Red Sox fans I talk to or read on the internet are happier than pigs in **** about these signings.
Really? Point to someone who likes the Victorino signing.

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12-05-2012, 09:34 AM
  #942
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Really? Point to someone who likes the Victorino signing.
Right here. I like both signings, good guys that didn't cost draft picks and aren't blocking any prospects. Victorino might allow them to move ellsbury, which is what i want to see happen. Both are versatile enough to be overpaid bench guys in 2014-2015 when the prospects emerge. I don't think these hurt the draft spot at all, since they got #7 with ross and gonzalez for 100% and 60% of the year last year, both having outproduced their replacements. So far, great offseason.

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12-05-2012, 09:36 AM
  #943
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Just curious... what makes you think the Red Sox are still going to be terrible?

Don't they still have the chance to add pitching? Especially if Ellsbury is on the block?

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12-05-2012, 09:37 AM
  #944
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Right here. I like both signings, good guys that didn't cost draft picks and aren't blocking any prospects. Victorino might allow them to move ellsbury, which is what i want to see happen. Both are versatile enough to be overpaid bench guys in 2014-2015 when the prospects emerge. I don't think these hurt the draft spot at all, since they got #7 with ross and gonzalez for 100% and 60% of the year last year, both having outproduced their replacements. So far, great offseason.
Alright there's one I've read/heard/seen. Safe to say you are in a very small minority, but I stand corrected, there is at least one.

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12-05-2012, 09:38 AM
  #945
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Can you name me one free agent available this offseason who would have been more than a "marginal stiff"? They needed outfielders, a 1b, a SS and two starters. They got two outfielders (a #4 and a top 3), probably the best available hitting first baseman, and there's a ton of time left. Now I hate the Victorino signing, but you're making it sound like they're passing over better options? Hamilton and Greinke aren't gonna sign short-term deals, and if you're so high on the promise of our youth, you don't want them on long-term deals. So who exactly should they sign?

And if your answer to that is "nobody, play the kids", I again say that's completely, 100% unrealistic, and I know you know that. No big market team coming off these latest two seasons is going to play Gomez, Kalish, Lavarnway, Iglesias etc. on a nightly basis. This isn't Kansas City. Are they supposed to suffer the daily ripping in the media for charging the league's highest prices for a team they know will suck? Or are you honestly expecting them to lower ticket prices when they know they don't have to?

You're simply not articulating a realistic strategy. You're just venting. Lay out a reasonable strategy for this season that makes baseball and business sense. You can't ignore the latter.
I already have multiple times. If you're going in with the attitude that this isn't your year, then go with youth, and deal with the repercussions. If you want to bring in UFA's to fill spots, then go out and get the best ones on the market. It's not like you don't have the money, FFS, you just freed up an ungodly amount with one trade last season. What I find deplorable is this game of signing marginal dudes at higher than needed dollar values just so the FO can say they tried. It's BS. You pick a path and you go with it for good or bad. Going in halfway like they're doing now is worse than giving the kids a chance or dropping loads of money on a guy lik Hamilton.

Now, I'm not all for dropping big money, long term deals just for the flashy name brand player available, but can you honestly say this team will be markedly better this year than last with what they've done? If the answer is no (which it realistically is), then why are they doing this? Simple question, and really only one answer, IMO: To pretend they're trying. That to me is insulting, since it's more than obvious what the deal is. And to me, if you're going to spend the money and not go with youth, then go all in. Go out and sign guys like Hamilton and Haren and roll the dice. Just because it didn't work out particularly well with Crawford and Lackey in the past doesn't mean you eschew all higher priced FA's in the future. You can't do it halfassed like they are right now.

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12-05-2012, 09:43 AM
  #946
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I already have multiple times. If you're going in with the attitude that this isn't your year, then go with youth, and deal with the repercussions. If you want to bring in UFA's to fill spots, then go out and get the best ones on the market. It's not like you don't have the money, FFS, you just freed up an ungodly amount with one trade last season. What I find deplorable is this game of signing marginal dudes at higher than needed dollar values just so the FO can say they tried. It's BS. You pick a path and you go with it for good or bad. Going in halfway like they're doing now is worse than giving the kids a chance or dropping loads of money on a guy lik Hamilton.

Now, I'm not all for dropping big money, long term deals just for the flashy name brand player available, but can you honestly say this team will be markedly better this year than last with what they've done? If the answer is no (which it realistically is), then why are they doing this? Simple question, and really only one answer, IMO: To pretend they're trying. That to me is insulting, since it's more than obvious what the deal is. And to me, if you're going to spend the money and not go with youth, then go all in. Go out and sign guys like Hamilton and Haren and roll the dice. Just because it didn't work out particularly well with Crawford and Lackey in the past doesn't mean you eschew all higher priced FA's in the future. You can't do it halfassed like they are right now.
1. LSCII...75% of major league baseball teams know they can't/won't win the WS next season barring some unforeseen miracle. Are you suggesting the strategy for all of these teams should be to go with youth, suffer the PR nightmares and just hold out hope that your scouts can find the talent you'll need to eventually win?

2. They are one day into the Winter Meetings and you're already dismissing the possibility that they might be in on a big FA like Hamilton? They're half-assing it despite the fact we're at about the quarter pole of the offseason? Seriously?

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12-05-2012, 09:45 AM
  #947
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Just curious... what makes you think the Red Sox are still going to be terrible?

Don't they still have the chance to add pitching? Especially if Ellsbury is on the block?
The return they're going to get for Ellsbury will be very low, IMO. The guy is made of glass, and he badly wants to hit the market after next year to get a ridiculous contract. So any team talking to the Sox is going to grind down his value based on that alone. Keep in mind that this guy has missed nearly half the amount of games in the last 3 years. Despite the type of injuries they were, that's a red flag to a lot of teams, and will be used as leverage.

To answer your question though, can they add pitching? Sure. Kyle Loshe is going to be great here, and any number 3/4 type starter they get for Ells will surely be an impact player.

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12-05-2012, 09:46 AM
  #948
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I'm also fine with the Victorino signing because I can see what they're thinking.

Right now the team is in flux. People can be pessimistic and that's fine, but the truth of it is that we have no idea what we're going to be like next year. Setting the team up with versatile players that can be used in a number of ways makes sense depending on which kids earn promotion in the next couple years. So we sign a guy like Victorino who can slide into center if we need to make a move. We sign a guy who can play 1B and catcher and hits well enough to DH, and we add Gomes, who isn't versatile, but is an underrated bat.

And the other key about these players is that they shouldn't be impossible to move. None of them are so overpaid that another team might not find them useful, if, say, Bradley and Brentz both turn out to be ready for big league time before the contracts expire. Or if Jerry Sands turns out NOT to be overrated by his PCL time.

I expect similar moves with the pitching as the team looks for flexible players who won't be hard to move. Lannan makes a lot of sense in that department.

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12-05-2012, 09:46 AM
  #949
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Originally Posted by bp13 View Post
Really? Point to someone who likes the Victorino signing.
There are plenty just here. I guess it may be more me making the connection between signing Napoli and Victorino and then all of the people saying the Red Sox are a good team and are contenders now.

1. The division is tough

2. The lazy ******** attitude in the clubhouse is still ever present

3. And most importantly, the Red Sox pitching is ****ing horrible. I'm a Cubs fan, our pitching staff is mediocre but it isn't as bad as the Red Sox and I still expect us to lose at least 85 games. However, with the great offseason Theo and Co. are having, there may be more to come. Still, we will not contend for a damn thing. I just wonder what are the Red Sox going to do about that pitching staff? They haven't addressed it at all.

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12-05-2012, 09:50 AM
  #950
LSCII
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
When the vast majority of your fanbase is under the belief that Bobby V cost the team about 20 games in the standings and Farrell is the chosen one, that's basically the fans saying "Ah yes, waiter, I'll have the turd sandwich on rye"

As an objective observer of the Red Sox, I thought they should have cut Ortiz loose and when with a youth movement. Well, they are doing the complete opposite and most Red Sox fans I talk to or read on the internet are happier than pigs in **** about these signings.
The head in the sand lemmings make their ticket sales go up though. Sweeeeeeeeeeeeet Caroline, oh, oh, oh...

The fans blame Bobby V for that train wreck last year (just like the previous year it was all Francona's fault), because the one eyed bandit spoon fed them that excuse. It'll be funny to see who they blame this year after they suck again. Maybe it's just me, but I see the problem residing more with Larry and his involvement in manager and player personnel decisions.

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