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Red Sox/MLB 2012 Thread Part XX-Time for Rebuilding

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Old
12-05-2012, 10:54 AM
  #951
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
The head in the sand lemmings make their ticket sales go up though. Sweeeeeeeeeeeeet Caroline, oh, oh, oh...

The fans blame Bobby V for that train wreck last year (just like the previous year it was all Francona's fault), because the one eyed bandit spoon fed them that excuse. It'll be funny to see who they blame this year after they suck again. Maybe it's just me, but I see the problem residing more with Larry and his involvement in manager and player personnel decisions.
I agree with you 100%, but I also think they had a bad core of players (Beckett, Ortiz and others) who constantly feed into the hype because they can't keep their mouths shut. It's a problem we used to have in Chicago. Those guys are long gone now though, Mercker, Sammy Sosa, Aramis, Alou. The similarity is striking but the Red Sox seem to want to keep it rolling a few years longer and yeah, I definitely agree it is all about money and excuses for poor management by the higher ups.

As to who will get the blame, it will be Cherington. I expect him to be gone after this season.

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12-05-2012, 10:55 AM
  #952
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There are plenty just here. I guess it may be more me making the connection between signing Napoli and Victorino and then all of the people saying the Red Sox are a good team and are contenders now.

1. The division is tough

2. The lazy ******** attitude in the clubhouse is still ever present

3. And most importantly, the Red Sox pitching is ****ing horrible. I'm a Cubs fan, our pitching staff is mediocre but it isn't as bad as the Red Sox and I still expect us to lose at least 85 games. However, with the great offseason Theo and Co. are having, there may be more to come. Still, we will not contend for a damn thing. I just wonder what are the Red Sox going to do about that pitching staff? They haven't addressed it at all.
This seems strawman to me. I haven't seen anyone label them a contender now.

They're a mediocre team now. Better than they were when the season ended, but probably not a ton. That said, it's the first week of December and there's plenty of time. They might get worse, they might get better, they might stay the same.

As for the division, I think you're off base in your assessment. The Yankees are getting worse by the day, the Orioles couldn't possibly hope to repeat the 90% win rate in one-run games they had last year (or something ridiculous like that), and how mnay big-name trades like the one the Jays made have we seen blow up? And what exactly did Reyes, Buehrle and Johnson do in the minors (I mean NL) last season?

I think the AL East is overrated. I think all of the teams are okay, none are great. And yeah the Sox staff sucks, but obviously they need to do something about it. They have plenty of time to do so.

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12-05-2012, 10:55 AM
  #953
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apologies to anyone who took my comment about Burton being racist- I did not realize some of my (former apparently) good friends not only were the ones insinauting Steve was stupid but would consider my comment as singularly directed at them.

I went back and looked over (quickly I admit) who made the remarks that set me off and two of my favorite posters BP and Mike from Everett were on the forefront. I don't know BP but I don't consider him anything but a great hockey fan- apologies.

Mike on the other hand I know- I been out with him, been to games with him- and he's about as far from that as they come. He's much nicer than me (that aint saying much) and I feel bad about that because this is one guy who is fun to hang out with.

I did not mean to tag everyone just the over the top meaness directed at Burton I have ever seen on these boards. It was downright angry and personal. It seemed to cross the line like I have never seen here. I know this place dislikes Dupont, Haggs, Murph, probably me, oops, Dale (cant forget all those polls Dale came up lame). But Burton was the worst to me,

Its like pit bulls. I think 80% of the people who have those dogs are freaking doing it for image, wrong reason. HOWEVER, we had one for years- awesome dog and when I hear the comments about owners it never bothers me because I am in the 20%

so to Mike, BP, and all the others who are innocent in this and just basically think Burton sucks regardless, I apologize. I am willing to resign the board in disgrace with even a * before and after, and even a thumbs down modicom (or however you spell it)

Mike & BP good, DKH idiot (btw- now there is a good place for the use)

oh, and well I'm baring my soul- I should add Morris in there for a cheap shot at him for a Sobtoka comment.

ok, hopefully we have hockey and Mike will still go to a game with me (although I'm afraid he may go off on me if he does after a couple of Guinesses) although probably deserved

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12-05-2012, 10:57 AM
  #954
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
There are plenty just here. I guess it may be more me making the connection between signing Napoli and Victorino and then all of the people saying the Red Sox are a good team and are contenders now.

1. The division is tough

2. The lazy ******** attitude in the clubhouse is still ever present

3. And most importantly, the Red Sox pitching is ****ing horrible. I'm a Cubs fan, our pitching staff is mediocre but it isn't as bad as the Red Sox and I still expect us to lose at least 85 games. However, with the great offseason Theo and Co. are having, there may be more to come. Still, we will not contend for a damn thing. I just wonder what are the Red Sox going to do about that pitching staff? They haven't addressed it at all.
Don't worry. All will be taken care of when they sign and overpay Ryan Dempster and Kyle Loshe.

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12-05-2012, 10:59 AM
  #955
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
The head in the sand lemmings make their ticket sales go up though. Sweeeeeeeeeeeeet Caroline, oh, oh, oh...

The fans blame Bobby V for that train wreck last year (just like the previous year it was all Francona's fault), because the one eyed bandit spoon fed them that excuse. It'll be funny to see who they blame this year after they suck again. Maybe it's just me, but I see the problem residing more with Larry and his involvement in manager and player personnel decisions.
You've gone off the deep end LSCII.

Name a poster on this board who's been whistling past the graveyard with this team. Name a local journalist who's buying any of the **** being sold by Lucky.

Just because you find LL smarmy doesn't mean you're the only one who gets it. I'm a season ticket holder and don't know a soul (and I know more Sox fans than I could count) who blames last season on Bobby V. or thinks this team doesn't need significant upgrade. You're creating your own little strawman so you can go off about it.

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12-05-2012, 11:05 AM
  #956
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This seems strawman to me. I haven't seen anyone label them a contender now.

They're a mediocre team now. Better than they were when the season ended, but probably not a ton. That said, it's the first week of December and there's plenty of time. They might get worse, they might get better, they might stay the same.

As for the division, I think you're off base in your assessment. The Yankees are getting worse by the day, the Orioles couldn't possibly hope to repeat the 90% win rate in one-run games they had last year (or something ridiculous like that), and how mnay big-name trades like the one the Jays made have we seen blow up? And what exactly did Reyes, Buehrle and Johnson do in the minors (I mean NL) last season?

I think the AL East is overrated. I think all of the teams are okay, none are great. And yeah the Sox staff sucks, but obviously they need to do something about it. They have plenty of time to do so.
What exactly is it about the Yankees that make people think they are going to go into the toilet? A-Rod? The guy was a slug anyway; it's probably a blessing. I see another 90-95 win season.

The Orioles, yeah, they overachieved big time, but now they will have Bundy. I agree the Sox could finish with a better record than them. The Blue Jays, you can look back at Clemens and other big moves that didn't amount to a playoff spot but what they have done this offseason is a lot bigger than what they had done in the past. The players they got are good. They also have a very good young core. I see the Red Sox finishing in third behind the Blue Jays and Yankees unless they acquire a couple of ace pitchers for mostly minor league players and Ellsbury, but I could see them finishing 4th or 5th too.

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12-05-2012, 11:08 AM
  #957
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apologies to anyone who took my comment about Burton being racist- I did not realize some of my (former apparently) good friends not only were the ones insinauting Steve was stupid but would consider my comment as singularly directed at them.

I went back and looked over (quickly I admit) who made the remarks that set me off and two of my favorite posters BP and Mike from Everett were on the forefront. I don't know BP but I don't consider him anything but a great hockey fan- apologies.

Mike on the other hand I know- I been out with him, been to games with him- and he's about as far from that as they come. He's much nicer than me (that aint saying much) and I feel bad about that because this is one guy who is fun to hang out with.

I did not mean to tag everyone just the over the top meaness directed at Burton I have ever seen on these boards. It was downright angry and personal. It seemed to cross the line like I have never seen here. I know this place dislikes Dupont, Haggs, Murph, probably me, oops, Dale (cant forget all those polls Dale came up lame). But Burton was the worst to me,

Its like pit bulls. I think 80% of the people who have those dogs are freaking doing it for image, wrong reason. HOWEVER, we had one for years- awesome dog and when I hear the comments about owners it never bothers me because I am in the 20%

so to Mike, BP, and all the others who are innocent in this and just basically think Burton sucks regardless, I apologize. I am willing to resign the board in disgrace with even a * before and after, and even a thumbs down modicom (or however you spell it)

Mike & BP good, DKH idiot (btw- now there is a good place for the use)

oh, and well I'm baring my soul- I should add Morris in there for a cheap shot at him for a Sobtoka comment.

ok, hopefully we have hockey and Mike will still go to a game with me (although I'm afraid he may go off on me if he does after a couple of Guinesses) although probably deserved
Thanks pal.

But, um.....could you post this in the correct thread?

If you do, you don't have to resign in shame.

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Old
12-05-2012, 11:08 AM
  #958
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Originally Posted by bp13 View Post
You've gone off the deep end LSCII.

Name a poster on this board who's been whistling past the graveyard with this team. Name a local journalist who's buying any of the **** being sold by Lucky.

Just because you find LL smarmy doesn't mean you're the only one who gets it. I'm a season ticket holder and don't know a soul (and I know more Sox fans than I could count) who blames last season on Bobby V. or thinks this team doesn't need significant upgrade. You're creating your own little strawman so you can go off about it.
Talk about a straw man argument, BP. You say no one is buying what LL is selling, yet you're just one of the many who are justifying the moves they've made so far. That's tacit approval, whether you realize it or not, my friend.

In all seriousness, I'm not trying to go off on anything. I just look at what has transpired so far and call it like I see it. Right now, what I see is nothing more than a PR ploy to give the appearance this team is trying to compete.

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12-05-2012, 11:09 AM
  #959
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
What exactly is it about the Yankees that make people think they are going to go into the toilet? A-Rod? The guy was a slug anyway; it's probably a blessing. I see another 90-95 win season.

The Orioles, yeah, they overachieved big time, but now they will have Bundy. I agree the Sox could finish with a better record than them. The Blue Jays, you can look back at Clemens and other big moves that didn't amount to a playoff spot but what they have done this offseason is a lot bigger than what they had done in the past. The players they got are good. They also have a very good young core. I see the Red Sox finishing in third behind the Blue Jays and Yankees unless they acquire a couple of ace pitchers for mostly minor league players and Ellsbury.
I see the Sox finishing behind NY and TB, also because the rotation sucks.

But I think one top flight starter puts them right there every team in the division, with a fair chance at a playoff spot. None of these teams is particularly good.

As for the Yankees...A-Rod, Jeter's ankle, potential loss of Swisher, potential loss of Martin, Pettite another year older, etc. That;s not a team in the upswing by anyone's imagination. Probably better than the Sox today, but not by any huge stretch.

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12-05-2012, 11:19 AM
  #960
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Talk about a straw man argument, BP. You say no one is buying what LL is selling, yet you're just one of the many who are justifying the moves they've made so far. That's tacit approval, whether you realize it or not, my friend.

In all seriousness, I'm not trying to go off on anything. I just look at what has transpired so far and call it like I see it. Right now, what I see is nothing more than a PR ploy to give the appearance this team is trying to compete.
Oh for...

just because LL is a skunk doesn't mean the Red Sox are incapable of making intelligent moves. The signings he's made so far are intelligent. It's easy to see why these signings happened and they don't impede future moves.

Or perhaps you hate Bergeron because he was first signed under Sinden?

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12-05-2012, 11:22 AM
  #961
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Oh for...

just because LL is a skunk doesn't mean the Red Sox are incapable of making intelligent moves. The signings he's made so far are intelligent. It's easy to see why these signings happened and they don't impede future moves.

Or perhaps you hate Bergeron because he was first signed under Sinden?
Nonsensical point is nonsensical.

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12-05-2012, 11:24 AM
  #962
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That sums up your entire argument to this point -- such as you even have one.

You're not thinking right now, you're emoting, and it's obvious to a lot of people.

You've put yourself in the place you are by engaging in binary thinking, which is one of the great failures of emotional logic. By the argument you've been using so far in this thread, either

1: a move must put us in an immediate position to compete for the World Series

Or

2: The move serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

I don't think I need to spend a lot of time proving that there's a third option here.

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12-05-2012, 11:25 AM
  #963
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To the Red Sox fans wanting another arm to go for it, would you do Xander Bogaerts and Allen Webster for Matt Garza?

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12-05-2012, 11:30 AM
  #964
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To the Red Sox fans wanting another arm to go for it, would you do Xander Bogaerts and Allen Webster for Matt Garza?
Hell no.

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12-05-2012, 11:30 AM
  #965
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To the Red Sox fans wanting another arm to go for it, would you do Xander Bogaerts and Allen Webster for Matt Garza?
I personally would not.

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12-05-2012, 11:31 AM
  #966
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Bogaerts alone, straight up?

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12-05-2012, 11:33 AM
  #967
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Bogaerts alone, straight up?
No.


@Buster_ESPN: Rival official on Red Sox: "Boston is listening on... Ellsbury and Lester, but not motivated to move them unless teams overpay."


That's some good news

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12-05-2012, 11:34 AM
  #968
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To the Red Sox fans wanting another arm to go for it, would you do Xander Bogaerts and Allen Webster for Matt Garza?
No way

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12-05-2012, 11:36 AM
  #969
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That sums up your entire argument to this point -- such as you even have one.

You're not thinking right now, you're emoting, and it's obvious to a lot of people.

You've put yourself in the place you are by engaging in binary thinking, which is one of the great failures of emotional logic. By the argument you've been using so far in this thread, either

1: a move must put us in an immediate position to compete for the World Series

Or

2: The move serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

I don't think I need to spend a lot of time proving that there's a third option here.
Again, nothing more than gross assumptions and hyperbole from you. My point has been all along that these signings are more about PR than about improving the team because they don't make it a much better team than what they fielded last year. The logic (not sure if you can follow, but I'll give it one more shot) is that the FO is more concerned about selling tickets and team related products than actually winning. If they really wanted to be "competitive", then they would have addressed the holes they have on their pitching staff. Since the priority has been to add some offensive punch first, second, and third (and possibly fourth if they resign Ross as is being floated right now), they clearly are sending the message. Whether you're too obtuse to read it isn't my problem. That's on you. We done yet?

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12-05-2012, 11:38 AM
  #970
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Bogaerts alone, straight up?
Not a chance.

Matt Garza is a very solid #3, MAYBE a #2. That isn't worth Bogaerts at all. I like Garza, but you need to lower your expectations a little bit.

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12-05-2012, 11:44 AM
  #971
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