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Old
12-02-2012, 01:24 PM
  #201
Dr Quincy
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It's a fact that Krejci lead the NHL in playoff scoring in 2011.

It's an opinion that such a feat has some sort of future predictive value. Even assuming that it does, the amount of value it has here is being vastly overestimated. This doesn't mean it wasn't great in 2011... it was. But again, Claude Lemieux lead the NHL in playoff scoring one year and Neely never did. Please .raise your hand if you are a Bruins fan, and at any time pre-injury you would have traded Neely for Lemieux.

Exactly. I didn't think so. So let's stop pretending that Krejci's run in '11 is an argument ender. It isn't.

And the idea, because of that run, that Krejci "raises the level of his play when it counts" is being over-estimated as well.

Let's look at last year's playoffs.

First 4 games Krejci goes pointless with a -1.

Game 5 a secondary assist on a Seidenberg goal in a 3-2 loss.

Game 6 a ppg and a secondary assist on the game winner. Good game for him... but he's not even the 3rd star, and Backman is the 2nd star in that game.

Game 7.. pointless, 33% on faceoffs (Backstrom is 52% in the game). Has 1 shot on net, 1 give away and 1 take away.

He was a .45 pt per game player in the playoffs, he was 44% faceoffs in the series and he was 33% on shorthanded faceoffs.

Backstrom outplayed him in that series... not by a ton, but he did outplay him.

Now to be clear, again, none of that takes away what he did in 2011, but it just shows you that such a run has no predictive value for future seasons. Yes he was very good in the 2011 playoffs, but he was almost non-existent last year. A player's post season stats will fluctuate much more than their regular season stats so putting too much emphasis on one small sample is foolish.

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Old
12-02-2012, 01:49 PM
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
It's a fact that Krejci lead the NHL in playoff scoring in 2011.

It's an opinion that such a feat has some sort of future predictive value. Even assuming that it does, the amount of value it has here is being vastly overestimated. This doesn't mean it wasn't great in 2011... it was. But again, Claude Lemieux lead the NHL in playoff scoring one year and Neely never did. Please .raise your hand if you are a Bruins fan, and at any time pre-injury you would have traded Neely for Lemieux.

Exactly. I didn't think so. So let's stop pretending that Krejci's run in '11 is an argument ender. It isn't.

And the idea, because of that run, that Krejci "raises the level of his play when it counts" is being over-estimated as well.

Let's look at last year's playoffs.

First 4 games Krejci goes pointless with a -1.

Game 5 a secondary assist on a Seidenberg goal in a 3-2 loss.

Game 6 a ppg and a secondary assist on the game winner. Good game for him... but he's not even the 3rd star, and Backman is the 2nd star in that game.

Game 7.. pointless, 33% on faceoffs (Backstrom is 52% in the game). Has 1 shot on net, 1 give away and 1 take away.

He was a .45 pt per game player in the playoffs, he was 44% faceoffs in the series and he was 33% on shorthanded faceoffs.

Backstrom outplayed him in that series... not by a ton, but he did outplay him.

Now to be clear, again, none of that takes away what he did in 2011, but it just shows you that such a run has no predictive value for future seasons. Yes he was very good in the 2011 playoffs, but he was almost non-existent last year. A player's post season stats will fluctuate much more than their regular season stats so putting too much emphasis on one small sample is foolish.
You sure do like playing Devil's Advocate for a Bruins fan.

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12-02-2012, 01:55 PM
  #203
Dr Quincy
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Originally Posted by NathanHortonFan View Post
You sure do like playing Devil's Advocate for a Bruins fan.
I think Backstrom is better than Krejci. If you have an argument about that other than a personal shot, go ahead and make it. Just because I like 1 team better than another doesn't mean I'm going to be blind to what my eyes tell me about 2 players.

There are plenty of threads on the trade board where I defend Krejci's value against fans from other teams who want to give up less to get him than he's worth. Again, in this case it's clear to me Backstrom is easily the better player.

Doesn't mean either team does the original deal, but that's the truth as I see it.

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Old
12-02-2012, 04:59 PM
  #204
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I think most, if not all Bruins fans on this thread have agreed that Backstrom is better than Krejci, and that we'd all do that trade one for one; but what seems to be missed here is that Backstrom & Chimera is not worth Krejci, Marchand, and a 1st.

Has anybody said Krejci is 'better' than Backstrom? I've seen several make the argument that their playoff performance is equal, and the stats seem to back that up.

Quite simply, in my opinion; the difference between Backstrom and Krejci doesn't make up for the drop off from Marchand to Chimera, and then losing a 1st round pick on top of it!!

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12-02-2012, 06:35 PM
  #205
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Not a bad package but Boston would have to add a bit more to get backstrom, who is getting a bit overrated in this thread btw, or I'm underrating him

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12-03-2012, 08:24 AM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
It's a fact that Krejci lead the NHL in playoff scoring in 2011.

It's an opinion that such a feat has some sort of future predictive value. Even assuming that it does, the amount of value it has here is being vastly overestimated. This doesn't mean it wasn't great in 2011... it was. But again, Claude Lemieux lead the NHL in playoff scoring one year and Neely never did. Please .raise your hand if you are a Bruins fan, and at any time pre-injury you would have traded Neely for Lemieux.
Exactly. I didn't think so. So let's stop pretending that Krejci's run in '11 is an argument ender. It isn't.

And the idea, because of that run, that Krejci "raises the level of his play when it counts" is being over-estimated as well.

Let's look at last year's playoffs.

First 4 games Krejci goes pointless with a -1.

Game 5 a secondary assist on a Seidenberg goal in a 3-2 loss.

Game 6 a ppg and a secondary assist on the game winner. Good game for him... but he's not even the 3rd star, and Backman is the 2nd star in that game.

Game 7.. pointless, 33% on faceoffs (Backstrom is 52% in the game). Has 1 shot on net, 1 give away and 1 take away.

He was a .45 pt per game player in the playoffs, he was 44% faceoffs in the series and he was 33% on shorthanded faceoffs.

Backstrom outplayed him in that series... not by a ton, but he did outplay him.

Now to be clear, again, none of that takes away what he did in 2011, but it just shows you that such a run has no predictive value for future seasons. Yes he was very good in the 2011 playoffs, but he was almost non-existent last year. A player's post season stats will fluctuate much more than their regular season stats so putting too much emphasis on one small sample is foolish.
The point I raised in regards to Krejci & Backstroms playoff stats has less to do with "Krejci leading the playoffs in scoring", than it did to show that their playoff stats are very comparible (as in almost exact). It is easier to compare the two, as they are close in age, entered the league around the same time, have played almost the same amount of playoff games, are both their respective teams top line center. & stats show that Krejci & Backstrom have identical PPG% in the playoffs thus far in their careers. That is not me saying Krejci is better than Backstrom overall.

Im not quite sure why you continue to bring up Claude Lemieux & Neely, unless ofcourse you are pushing the "Krejci led the playoffs" agenda.

Claude Lemieux played in 234 playoff games, 158pts. = 0.67 PPG

Cam Neely played in 93 playoff games, 89pts. = 0.96 PPG

So again, Im not sure where exactly you are drawing a comparison..?

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Old
12-03-2012, 10:49 PM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPV View Post
I think most, if not all Bruins fans on this thread have agreed that Backstrom is better than Krejci, and that we'd all do that trade one for one; but what seems to be missed here is that Backstrom & Chimera is not worth Krejci, Marchand, and a 1st.

Has anybody said Krejci is 'better' than Backstrom? I've seen several make the argument that their playoff performance is equal, and the stats seem to back that up.

Quite simply, in my opinion; the difference between Backstrom and Krejci doesn't make up for the drop off from Marchand to Chimera, and then losing a 1st round pick on top of it!!
Bingo.

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Old
12-03-2012, 11:38 PM
  #208
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Woulnd want Marchand on Caps and Bäckström is miles ahead of Krejci. I could see trading Johansson and/or Forsberg for Krejci though. We really need more center depth and Ribeiro likely wont be at caps next season.

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12-04-2012, 07:53 AM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSnow View Post
Woulnd want Marchand on Caps and Bäckström is miles ahead of Krejci. I could see trading Johansson and/or Forsberg for Krejci though. We really need more center depth and Ribeiro likely wont be at caps next season.
Highly unlikely. Bruins not in the business of downgrading their center depth in order bolster the depth of a Conference foe.

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12-04-2012, 12:14 PM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
It's a fact that Krejci lead the NHL in playoff scoring in 2011.

It's an opinion that such a feat has some sort of future predictive value. Even assuming that it does, the amount of value it has here is being vastly overestimated. .
its one of those stats that are fairly meaningless to me and i hate when poeple bring it up as some way to prove a point, value or worth.

he was the first line center on the cup winning team.

he should have led the playoffs in scoring.

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12-04-2012, 06:29 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by bb_fan View Post
its one of those stats that are fairly meaningless to me and i hate when poeple bring it up as some way to prove a point, value or worth.

he was the first line center on the cup winning team.

he should have led the playoffs in scoring.
Its far from meaningless. You imply that he rode on the coattails of the rest of the team. He was a large reason why we won.

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12-05-2012, 03:18 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
Bergeron is clearly an elite 2-way player, but Backstrom is a special offensive player. Bergeron will likely never crack 80 points; Backstrom did it twice before his 24th birthday.
80 points, zero defense.

I'll keep Bergeron thank you, he's the type of player you need to win championships.

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12-05-2012, 08:16 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by GodTukka View Post
80 points, zero defense.

I'll keep Bergeron thank you, he's the type of player you need to win championships.
If Bäckström has zero defence and Bergeron is atleast 20 points better at defence, does that mean that if Datsyuk for some reason scores only 40 points he is still > Bergeron.

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12-05-2012, 08:44 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by GodTukka View Post
80 points, zero defense.

I'll keep Bergeron thank you, he's the type of player you need to win championships.
am i understanding you correctly that you are saying that backstrom is a one way no defense player?

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12-05-2012, 11:07 AM
  #215
Tim Vezina Thomas
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Originally Posted by GodTukka View Post
80 points, zero defense.

I'll keep Bergeron thank you, he's the type of player you need to win championships.
Backstrom kills penalties, but is far from Bergerons elite level defense.

I agree with you tho, I wouldnt trade Bergeron for Backstrom either. He means way more to the Bruins.

I would trade Krejci tho, obviously.

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Old
12-05-2012, 11:16 AM
  #216
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He's a top line C, those generally aren't put in a shutdown role as they're expected to carry the mail offensively. Pretty much the only super-defensive top line Cs out there are Toews and Kopitar (you can say Richards but at this point he's a 2C), and Backstrom isn't far behind either.

You could plug Backstrom into a 2nd line shutdown role and tell him to shut players down as a top priority he'd be right up there with Bergeron in everything except faceoffs.

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Old
12-05-2012, 11:43 AM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GodTukka View Post
80 points, zero defense.

I'll keep Bergeron thank you, he's the type of player you need to win championships.
Oh my...

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Old
12-05-2012, 11:46 AM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
He's a top line C, those generally aren't put in a shutdown role as they're expected to carry the mail offensively. Pretty much the only super-defensive top line Cs out there are Toews and Kopitar (you can say Richards but at this point he's a 2C), and Backstrom isn't far behind either.

You could plug Backstrom into a 2nd line shutdown role and tell him to shut players down as a top priority he'd be right up there with Bergeron in everything except faceoffs.
Lets not get crazy here, Bergy is an elite defensive center, Backstrom is good defensively, not Bergeron good though.

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12-05-2012, 12:37 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
Lets not get crazy here, Bergy is an elite defensive center, Backstrom is good defensively, not Bergeron good though.
Bergeron is better, but, again Backstrom's role is to cheat on defense in favor of offense since he has high end offensive skills. Bergeron's is the other way around.

Faceoffs is one area where Bergeron dominates him, no argument there, but if you look at Backstrom's ability to shadow players, prevent surefire goals with timely checks/sticklifts/etc, steal the puck, PK, make high IQ defensive plays, there's not that much difference. There's a reason pretty much all prototypical Selke players aside from Datsyuk (Kesler, JStaal, Bergeron, Richards, Backes) are high end 2nd line centers.

As far as top line C's go I'd say Backstrom is around 5th best defensively, behind Datsyuk, Toews, Zetterberg (if he still counts as a C), Kopitar. Could be behind Crosby as well though Crosby doesn't play that much defense as he doesn't have to.

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12-05-2012, 12:43 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Bergeron is better, but, again Backstrom's role is to cheat on defense in favor of offense since he has high end offensive skills. Bergeron's is the other way around.

Faceoffs is one area where Bergeron dominates him, no argument there, but if you look at Backstrom's ability to shadow players, prevent surefire goals with timely checks/sticklifts/etc, steal the puck, PK, make high IQ defensive plays, there's not that much difference. There's a reason pretty much all prototypical Selke players aside from Datsyuk (Kesler, JStaal, Bergeron, Richards, Backes) are high end 2nd line centers.
You could use the exact same reasoning to say Bergeron is just about as good offensively as Backstrom then?

There is no denying that Backstom is better offensively and no denying even though you are giving it a good try, that Bergeron is better than Backstrom defensively.

You can make arguments to the contrary, but then a lot of us just see a biased argument going on.

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12-05-2012, 12:48 PM
  #221
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Just an observation from Backstrom playing in KHL.

He has been trusted by the Russian Dale Hunter to come right in and play the PK, and he's winning 60%+ of his face offs. He's also continued with his ability to easily steal the puck like he started doing against the Bruins and Rangers.

The thing that is mostly showing though his quick stopping and starting and his lateral moves opening up his ability to shoot the puck. If he was more accurate, it would be like watching Ovechkin.

In other words his game is still changing, and he's gotten better, better then he was in 09-10.

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12-05-2012, 01:03 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by GodTukka View Post
80 points, zero defense.

I'll keep Bergeron thank you, he's the type of player you need to win championships.
You're completely out of your mind if you think Backstrom has zero defense or you're just extremely biased and have a special man love for Bergeron. You win the cup and you think Bergeron is the second coming of Christ. He will not and can not produce top offensive points anywhere near Backstrom ever. He's obviously amazing defensively but Backstrom is great too and not as far off as you think.

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Old
12-05-2012, 01:05 PM
  #223
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Its far from meaningless. You imply that he rode on the coattails of the rest of the team. He was a large reason why we won.
Not at all.

I imply that as the fist line center i expect him to put up points.

I also imply that having played thru too game 7 of the cup finals that expect him to have equal or more points than players who played less games than he did in said playoff year.

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Old
12-05-2012, 01:06 PM
  #224
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Backstrom is clearly a great player... but is he what Boston needs to take the next step? Does Boston hurt their depth too much with this trade? Does it mess up the cap too much?

Our cup was won without a Backstrom type being the goto guy... Washington has been a playoff failure with a couple guys like this not being enough to get the job done.

Without depth you dont win these days... LA/CHICAGO did it with depth too.

Personally... I guess Boston would probably technically win this trade as far as on ice talent goes if all else was equal... but I think theres much better directions to move in. Moving Seguin to center... allowing him to be our special player... trading Krecji for a wing. Keeping depth.

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Old
12-05-2012, 01:15 PM
  #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb_fan View Post
Not at all.

I imply that as the fist line center i expect him to put up points.

I also imply that having played thru too game 7 of the cup finals that expect him to have equal or more points than players who played less games than he did in said playoff year.
You imply that at the end of every playoff, the leading scorer in should be a top line center from one of the Finals teams.

Maybe somebody can pop up some stats to show if this theory holds solid

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