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Lockout II - Moderated: Talk about your plenty, Talk about your ills...

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12-05-2012, 01:42 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Bob, you're being facetious here.

There are other things that are bargained besides share of HRR and contract rights. There is a laundry list of items the NHLPA asked for and the NHL agreed to give them in return for a lower share of HRR and some contract right restrictions. Michael Russo listed them on his blog.

Whether you believe these things are a fair and equitable return for what the NHLPA is being asked to give up is of no consequence. They are still concessions the NHL has offered.
I stand corrected.
The owners haven't made a single meaningful concession.

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12-05-2012, 01:43 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by Some Other Flame View Post
And the hundreds of millions Bettman has cost the owners through short sighted CBA's and lockouts somehow make him the winner in all this?
Bettman hasn't played this well. He came into this expecting Fehr to negotiate and tried to approach this as a normal negotiation with a low starting offer. Fehr used this to basically motivate the players to choose conflict, getting them to believe the owners were trying to bully them and he basically was able to keep a pointless conflict going.

If Bettman had been smart he would have been more diplomatic and Fehr's facade would have collapsed much earlier.

I think Bettman shouldn't be here for the next CBA negotiation as well. He's such a polarizing figure NHLPA hardliners will always be able to use 'evil Bettman' to get players to choose conflict.

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12-05-2012, 01:43 PM
  #603
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One of the good things that may come out of this is Donald Fehr being discredited forever as a reasonable negotiator and a leader of any players' union.

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12-05-2012, 01:44 PM
  #604
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I don't understand the logic in this. Isn't this just as much a pressure point for the PA?
Aren't sponsorship dollars part of HRR? I don't think the make whole is going to cover even close to any of that money as it will be focused on other revenue/growth deficiencies. Either way it will chew through those make whole dollar.

Some of the pro PA posters would blow their own foot off if it meant the owners had to also. Or perhaps they'd like to see the players blow their own foot off if the owners had to while he sits on the sidelines cheering down with the man!
The PA has already given paychecks and felt the heat and they've offered a ton of concessions.

Why in the hell ... now, that the owners have some obvious pressure, would you not let the owners come to you a bit?

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12-05-2012, 01:45 PM
  #605
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One of the good things that may come out of this is Donald Fehr being discredited forever as a reasonable negotiator and a leader of any players' union.
Generally, the only people who believe that are the people who believed that before he was hired.

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12-05-2012, 01:46 PM
  #606
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Bettman hasn't played this well. He came into this expecting Fehr to negotiate and tried to approach this as a normal negotiation with a low starting offer. Fehr used this to basically motivate the players to choose conflict, getting them to believe the owners were trying to bully them and he basically was able to keep a pointless conflict going.

If Bettman had been smart he would have been more diplomatic and Fehr's facade would have collapsed much earlier.

I think Bettman shouldn't be here for the next CBA negotiation as well. He's such a polarizing figure NHLPA hardliners will always be able to use 'evil Bettman' to get players to choose conflict.
Bettman didn't negotiate. He pressured.

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12-05-2012, 01:48 PM
  #607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Bettman hasn't played this well. He came into this expecting Fehr to negotiate and tried to approach this as a normal negotiation with a low starting offer. Fehr used this to basically motivate the players to choose conflict, getting them to believe the owners were trying to bully them and he basically was able to keep a pointless conflict going.

If Bettman had been smart he would have been more diplomatic and Fehr's facade would have collapsed much earlier.

I think Bettman shouldn't be here for the next CBA negotiation as well. He's such a polarizing figure NHLPA hardliners will always be able to use 'evil Bettman' to get players to choose conflict.
Yea,... he may have come up with a way to get it accomplished in the end; but he's supposed to be the League Guy, so he perhaps could've been better prepared to deal with the likes of Fehr earlier, and not have cost the NHL the loss of a 1/4 of the Season.

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12-05-2012, 01:48 PM
  #608
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So the questions come about, was it just simply getting Fehr/Bettman out of the room?

The fact that Bettman is saying positive things and is encouraging about the process going on, makes me wonder if the players gave in mostly or partly on the make whole amount.

Quotes like this and Bettman's comment make me wonder what the players view is, and what the details will be. It also makes me wonder what Fehr's future holds-wondering if he is relieved of duties all is said and done.
No, it was just waiting out Bettman's script until the day it says to make a deal.

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12-05-2012, 01:51 PM
  #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Bettman hasn't played this well. He came into this expecting Fehr to negotiate and tried to approach this as a normal negotiation with a low starting offer. Fehr used this to basically motivate the players to choose conflict, getting them to believe the owners were trying to bully them and he basically was able to keep a pointless conflict going.

If Bettman had been smart he would have been more diplomatic and Fehr's facade would have collapsed much earlier.

I think Bettman shouldn't be here for the next CBA negotiation as well. He's such a polarizing figure NHLPA hardliners will always be able to use 'evil Bettman' to get players to choose conflict.
It's a stretch to call Bettman's actions thus far as 'negotiating.' He didn't even present a real proposal until the middle of October.

And if we can believe the reports, Bettman had until December 1st to get a deal done his way otherwise the owners would step in. Bettman failed miserably in that regard.

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12-05-2012, 01:51 PM
  #610
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Generally, the only people who believe that are the people who believed that before he was hired.
I didn't know a damn thing about Donald Fehr before the process started, but when I saw him encourage his own membership to lose more money in cancelled games than they stood to gain from fighting the owners proposal, I saw a bad negotiator. That and his persistence on delinkage: you never tell the other side that they get 50% of growth and 100% of loss. It's just stupid.

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12-05-2012, 01:52 PM
  #611
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Generally, the only people who believe that are the people who believed that before he was hired.
True, I thought it was a mistake for the NHLPA to hire Donald Fehr in the first place.

Looks like I was right.

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12-05-2012, 01:52 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by Some Other Flame View Post
It's a stretch to call Bettman's actions thus far as 'negotiating.' He didn't even present a real proposal until the middle of October.

And if we can believe the reports, Bettman had until December 1st to get a deal done his way otherwise the owners would step in. Bettman failed miserably in that regard.
His October proposal gave players the best revenue share in North American pro sports. His first proposal was the exact same split as the NBA's first proposal last year. Facts hurt your argument.

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12-05-2012, 01:53 PM
  #613
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So if you're Fehr, and you know exactly what the NBA script was, and the NHL is following it to a tee...

Isn't that an advantage?

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12-05-2012, 01:54 PM
  #614
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
One of the good things that may come out of this is Donald Fehr being discredited forever as a reasonable negotiator and a leader of any players' union.
And Gary Bettman is a reasonable negotiator????

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12-05-2012, 01:54 PM
  #615
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
So if you're Fehr, and you know exactly what the NBA script was, and the NHL is following it to a tee...

Isn't that an advantage?
Is there a conclusion you're trying to reach?

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12-05-2012, 01:56 PM
  #616
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Is there a conclusion you're trying to reach?

It would appear the conclusion is self-evident.

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12-05-2012, 01:56 PM
  #617
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And Gary Bettman is a reasonable negotiator????
Offered the players in the poorest league in NA the best revenue split of any league in NA in time for a full season. Copied his first offer's revenue split directly from the NBA's first offer a year ago.

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12-05-2012, 01:57 PM
  #618
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
One of the good things that may come out of this is Donald Fehr being discredited forever as a reasonable negotiator and a leader of any players' union.

You're still trying to discredit Fehr? Yeesh.

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12-05-2012, 01:57 PM
  #619
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
The PA has already given paychecks and felt the heat and they've offered a ton of concessions.

Why in the hell ... now, that the owners have some obvious pressure, would you not let the owners come to you a bit?
There you go again.. Shooting your own foot off to have the other side shoot theirs. That's your mentality in this whole process.

It's no more a pressure point for the owners than it is for the players. Don't you see that?

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12-05-2012, 01:58 PM
  #620
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And Gary Bettman is a reasonable negotiator????
Did I say that?

His opening gambit was a bit rough to be sure, but as I have said before the numbers in that offer were not come to by mistake. It was done to show the NHLPA that a 57/43 split in their favor is ridiculous.

Fehr never came to the table with a reasonable proposal and wasted everyone's time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
You're still trying to discredit Fehr? Yeesh.
He's done an excellent job of doing that himself. I only point out the obvious. With Kelly at the helm of the NHLPA we reach this conclusion much sooner without all the BS rhetoric.

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12-05-2012, 02:05 PM
  #621
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So if you're Fehr, and you know exactly what the NBA script was, and the NHL is following it to a tee...

Isn't that an advantage?
Only if he used it to get a deal where the players will have been more financially successful under the deal which will actually be brokered (with the damage which has been done to HRR) compared to how they would have done under the last NHL proposal which allowed for a full season. It's premature to draw that conclusion.

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12-05-2012, 02:06 PM
  #622
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Everything the owners said and did in this negotiation was scripted. Including, most likely, the final act of attributing the deal to the "unselfish" actions of the players and owners in coming together without Bettman and Fehr to make a deal around December 5. This way you can build up public support for the players now that you need them to make money, and allow the public to blame Bettman and Fehr for the deal taking so long to make.

Totally scripted.

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12-05-2012, 02:07 PM
  #623
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His October proposal gave players the best revenue share in North American pro sports. His first proposal was the exact same split as the NBA's first proposal last year. Facts hurt your argument.
I said the leagues first legitimate proposal came in October. You pointed out the same. How does that hurt my argument?

In any case, negotiating means a willing a talk which is a stark contrast to Bettman preferred style of take-it-or-leave-it.

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12-05-2012, 02:10 PM
  #624
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Kelly at the helm of the NHLPA we reach this conclusion much sooner without all the BS rhetoric.
That's unlikely unless Kelly were to go against the wishes of his constituency.

Kelly or Fehr, it wouldn't matter. This wasnt getting done until December either way.

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12-05-2012, 02:14 PM
  #625
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That's unlikely unless Kelly were to go against the wishes of his constituency.

Kelly or Fehr, it wouldn't matter. This wasnt getting done until December either way.
We will never know. I think Kelly would have never stepped outside of the framework of a salary cap linked to HRR. That would have saved a lot of time.

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