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Lockout II - Moderated: Talk about your plenty, Talk about your ills...

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Old
12-05-2012, 03:20 PM
  #626
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
Everything the owners said and did in this negotiation was scripted. Including, most likely, the final act of attributing the deal to the "unselfish" actions of the players and owners in coming together without Bettman and Fehr to make a deal around December 5. This way you can build up public support for the players now that you need them to make money, and allow the public to blame Bettman and Fehr for the deal taking so long to make.

Totally scripted.

Jacobs shouldn't sign the bill from Proskauer Rose. He could have used the NBA template.

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12-05-2012, 03:26 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
I didn't know a damn thing about Donald Fehr before the process started, but when I saw him encourage his own membership to lose more money in cancelled games than they stood to gain from fighting the owners proposal, I saw a bad negotiator. That and his persistence on delinkage: you never tell the other side that they get 50% of growth and 100% of loss. It's just stupid.
If the owners want the PA to share in the loss, the PA should have a say in business decisions and in long term strategies. If the mean player career is only 5 years, it stands to reason that he should not be expected to assume any risk or financial burden simply because the league - without any input whatsoever from the players or surrogates thereof - is pursuing a high risk southern expansion strategy that will never be of any benefit to him even if it does succeed. That's why the Germans use coordination and give workers a say in how firms operate. Last I checked, the Germany economy is doing pretty damn good. How's America doing again?

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12-05-2012, 03:31 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by PenguinPower420 View Post
If the owners want the PA to share in the loss, the PA should have a say in business decisions and in long term strategies. If the mean player career is only 5 years, it stands to reason that he should not be expected to assume any risk or financial burden simply because the league - without any input whatsoever from the players or surrogates thereof - is pursuing a high risk southern expansion strategy that will never be of any benefit to him even if it does succeed. That's why the Germans use coordination and give workers a say in how firms operate. Last I checked, the Germany economy is doing pretty damn good. How's America doing again?
Do you rememer what Jimmy Devellano called the players a couple of months ago ? He said loudly what possibly most GM/owners think about the players. Thye word "business partners" is not in their vocabulary.

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12-05-2012, 03:36 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by PenguinPower420 View Post
If the owners want the PA to share in the loss, the PA should have a say in business decisions and in long term strategies. If the mean player career is only 5 years, it stands to reason that he should not be expected to assume any risk or financial burden simply because the league - without any input whatsoever from the players or surrogates thereof - is pursuing a high risk southern expansion strategy that will never be of any benefit to him even if it does succeed. That's why the Germans use coordination and give workers a say in how firms operate. Last I checked, the Germany economy is doing pretty damn good. How's America doing again?
You are confusing things here.

The risk of losing money isn't something the players would ever accept (nor should they). The players will always make money no matter what. They would never share the loss, should the league lose money.

That players share is linked to revenue and revenue growth/decline affecting their share is natural. It's just a consequence of a cap system.

The players have made out like bandits from the Southern expansion. You have 30 teams in the league and average salary is $2.4M/year.

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12-05-2012, 03:39 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
Everything the owners said and did in this negotiation was scripted. Including, most likely, the final act of attributing the deal to the "unselfish" actions of the players and owners in coming together without Bettman and Fehr to make a deal around December 5. This way you can build up public support for the players now that you need them to make money, and allow the public to blame Bettman and Fehr for the deal taking so long to make.

Totally scripted.
I don't think it was scripted per se, but it probably was an out strategy for sure. You have to be able to lay blame as the public will demand it and since the public is your pay cheque, you do what you need to do.

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12-05-2012, 03:41 PM
  #631
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Bettman is really good at his job. I know he gets a lot of flack around here and in the hockey world. But he is extremely smart. He pisses me off a lot, but he's very good at what he does.

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12-05-2012, 03:41 PM
  #632
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Jacobs shouldn't sign the bill from Proskauer Rose. He could have used the NBA template.
So what if the Proskauer Rose playbook is being used? If you're smart you adapt to it because you know what's coming.

Making money is the ultimate incentive. If they had negotiated hard off the owner's offer OR presented a reasonable offer in time to save a whole season, that would have defeated the mythical 'PR playbook'.

You know they're going to lock you out? Start negotiating earlier.

Why would the NHL dangle a deal in October that is quite close to the actual deal that will eventually be signed if you are going to drag it out until December?

Let's face it - the NHLPA position so far hasn't made a lot of sense. The NHL has made it's mistakes but it was up to Fehr to recognize what was best for his players - because they are the ones with the most to lose.

It should be easy to counter tactics that you know are coming.

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12-05-2012, 03:42 PM
  #633
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So the owners got serious because they want 100 percent sponsorship money?
Bettman pushes it as far as he can until the owners risk losing sponsorship money, and then owners push him aside.

Interesting.
If I'm the PA, I don't give up a penny in my next offer.
What's amusing is that you seem to miss/ignore the fact that the Players will get (at least 50%) of the 100% of sponsorship money if they sign a deal soon too.

I'd say the players would/should be just as motivated as the owners.

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12-05-2012, 03:49 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by Shanahanigans View Post
Bettman is really good at his job. I know he gets a lot of flack around here and in the hockey world. But he is extremely smart. He pisses me off a lot, but he's very good at what he does.
Gotta love Bettman's brief press conference today to affirm his own belief that he is still relevant and still head of the NHL.

"I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me."

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12-05-2012, 03:57 PM
  #635
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So the questions come about, was it just simply getting Fehr/Bettman out of the room?

The fact that Bettman is saying positive things and is encouraging about the process going on, makes me wonder if the players gave in mostly or partly on the make whole amount.

Quotes like this and Bettman's comment make me wonder what the players view is, and what the details will be. It also makes me wonder what Fehr's future holds-wondering if he is relieved of duties all is said and done.
He's probably optimistic because Fehr isn't in the negotiations trying to start fights between owners.

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12-05-2012, 03:58 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by sipowicz View Post
Gotta love Bettman's brief press conference today to affirm his own belief that he is still relevant and still head of the NHL.

"I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me."
Well, you gotta admit Donald Fehr can't say that.

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12-05-2012, 04:02 PM
  #637
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
So what if the Proskauer Rose playbook is being used? If you're smart you adapt to it because you know what's coming.

Making money is the ultimate incentive. If they had negotiated hard off the owner's offer OR presented a reasonable offer in time to save a whole season, that would have defeated the mythical 'PR playbook'.

You know they're going to lock you out? Start negotiating earlier.

Why would the NHL dangle a deal in October that is quite close to the actual deal that will eventually be signed if you are going to drag it out until December?

Let's face it - the NHLPA position so far hasn't made a lot of sense. The NHL has made it's mistakes but it was up to Fehr to recognize what was best for his players - because they are the ones with the most to lose.

It should be easy to counter tactics that you know are coming.

Right. Because the way to avoid the pressure a lockout puts on a PA to cave to exorbitant demands is to negotiate earlier? (It's not an option unless you plan on total capitulation.)

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12-05-2012, 04:03 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
Do you rememer what Jimmy Devellano called the players a couple of months ago ? He said loudly what possibly most GM/owners think about the players. Thye word "business partners" is not in their vocabulary.

To be fair, Devellano included himself as cattle feeding at the owners' trough. That probably includes Bettman too, by Devellano's definition.

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12-05-2012, 04:07 PM
  #639
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Right. Because the way to avoid the pressure a lockout puts on a PA to cave to exorbitant demands is to negotiate earlier? (It's not an option unless you plan on total capitulation.)
There is zero downside to negotiating earlier unless you want conflict.

Assuming that there is a 'script' where there is a lockout and thus the players should refuse to negotiate until there is a lockout is such muddy thinking that I don't know why some here insist on it.

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12-05-2012, 04:08 PM
  #640
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@TSNBobMcKenzie Negotiations are at such a sensitive stage NHL govs weren't even given specifics from yesterday's session at today's BofG.
I wasn't too sure how to interpret that. Is that a positive thing?

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12-05-2012, 04:13 PM
  #641
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Assuming there is a short training camp, would CHL players be allowed to attend even undrafted players that were invited, or will they be stuck on their junior teams?

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12-05-2012, 04:13 PM
  #642
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Right. Because the way to avoid the pressure a lockout puts on a PA to cave to exorbitant demands is to negotiate earlier? (It's not an option unless you plan on total capitulation.)
So basically you give no credit to the union for being able to negotiate hard and convince the owners that it's in everyone's best interest to avoid games lost? I thought Fehr was a negotiating genius. Surely this is not out of the realm of his abilities?

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12-05-2012, 04:16 PM
  #643
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So basically you give no credit to the union for being able to negotiate hard and convince the owners that it's in everyone's best interest to avoid games lost? I thought Fehr was a negotiating genius. Surely this is not out of the realm of his abilities?
Surely, it is. Fehr has demonstrated that his only negotiating tactic is too stall when cancelling the post season via a strike isn't available as a strategy.

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12-05-2012, 04:18 PM
  #644
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I wasn't too sure how to interpret that. Is that a positive thing?
I'd say it's a positive: it means things are moving along.

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12-05-2012, 04:19 PM
  #645
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
Everything the owners said and did in this negotiation was scripted. Including, most likely, the final act of attributing the deal to the "unselfish" actions of the players and owners in coming together without Bettman and Fehr to make a deal around December 5. This way you can build up public support for the players now that you need them to make money, and allow the public to blame Bettman and Fehr for the deal taking so long to make.

Totally scripted.
Glad I wasn't the only one this had occurred to. The consumer pays their money for the product because of either the players or the teams (owners), so what better way to make them both seem the good guys and both gain public support than by them being the ones to supposedly solve this, while Fehr and Bettman take the public-hate-bullet? It's a pretty conspiratorial theory, but the only possible confirmation of it is if a deal is made soon, and most of the media credit is given to the players and owners for the work they've done in these meetings.

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12-05-2012, 04:24 PM
  #646
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
Everything the owners said and did in this negotiation was scripted. Including, most likely, the final act of attributing the deal to the "unselfish" actions of the players and owners in coming together without Bettman and Fehr to make a deal around December 5. This way you can build up public support for the players now that you need them to make money, and allow the public to blame Bettman and Fehr for the deal taking so long to make.

Totally scripted.
Completely agree, the minute I saw Bettman 'suggest' the owners meet the players, I thought that either Fehr had gotten schooled by Bettman, or both Fehr and Bettman got enough pressure and realised it was time to pass this to others to generate a 'hero' for saving a season. Brilliant actually, from both of them since they are still pulling strings I would believe.

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12-05-2012, 04:25 PM
  #647
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Glad I wasn't the only one this had occurred to. The consumer pays their money for the product because of either the players or the teams (owners), so what better way to make them both seem the good guys and both gain public support than by them being the ones to supposedly solve this, while Fehr and Bettman take the public-hate-bullet? It's a pretty conspiratorial theory, but the only possible confirmation of it is if a deal is made soon, and most of the media credit is given to the players and owners for the work they've done in these meetings.
I'm sure Bettman and D.Fehr don't give a single toss about what the public thinks of them, so it's not farfetched to build them as the obstinate villains to drum up public support for the owners and players who "solved" this mess. I mean, we're not paying Bettman to do his job - that's what the owners do.

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12-05-2012, 04:26 PM
  #648
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There is zero downside to negotiating earlier unless you want conflict.

Assuming that there is a 'script' where there is a lockout and thus the players should refuse to negotiate until there is a lockout is such muddy thinking that I don't know why some here insist on it.
The NHL only has one playbook: negotiate by creating conflict. I know you'll disagree, but hey, it's the third lockout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
So basically you give no credit to the union for being able to negotiate hard and convince the owners that it's in everyone's best interest to avoid games lost? I thought Fehr was a negotiating genius. Surely this is not out of the realm of his abilities?
This particular NHL? Absolutely not. Nada. Zero. Zilch. No credit whatsoever for engaging to have the other side "negotiate hard."

There is a playbook here. People can choose to ignore that but please don't overlook that this is the third lockout.

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12-05-2012, 04:29 PM
  #649
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The NHL only has one playbook: negotiate by creating conflict. I know you'll disagree, but hey, it's the third lockout.



This particular NHL? Absolutely not. Nada. Zero. Zilch. No credit whatsoever for engaging to have the other side "negotiate hard."

There is a playbook here. People can choose to ignore that but please don't overlook that this is the third lockout.
So simply because such a playbook exists, it precludes all other possibilities?

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12-05-2012, 04:38 PM
  #650
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The NHL only has one playbook: negotiate by creating conflict. I know you'll disagree, but hey, it's the third lockout.
And NHLPA have been pressing to get a new CBA in place in any of these three cases? The players bear as much responsibility for these three lockouts as the owners do.

It was obvious that Bettman wanted to break the cycle this time around when he urged NHLPA to negotiate a year before the CBA expired.

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