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Ilitch Announces New Arena Plans

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Old
12-04-2012, 11:03 PM
  #26
RedWingsNow*
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Originally Posted by ScottyBowman View Post
Downtown detroit along with midtown is starting to boom. Not sure how long you visited but the last 3 years in downtown detroit has been miraculous. It still has a way to go but this is the first time I've had hope and the investments and companies relocating has been awesome. Yes. People live downtown. People will be surprised but their is a strong demand for housing downtown and developers are starting to renovate the old structures. In case you're wondering, whole foods is building a store downtown. Detroit is finally coming back.
I am cautiously optimistic. I have a friend in his 20s who moved here:
http://www.newcadillacsquare.com/

Great stuff.

But the test is families. When families move to Detroit, then you'll know the rebirth is true.

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12-04-2012, 11:32 PM
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Whole thing is a big risk, put it in the suburbs instead.

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12-04-2012, 11:37 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Whole thing is a big risk, put it in the suburbs instead.
1. Land is dirt cheap in the city and expensive in the burbs.
2. Ilitch and co have half detroit in their back pocket.
3. Ilitch wants to go down as a guy who helped rebuild Detroit.
4. What's so great about the burbs? The Lions went to Pontiac and came back. The Pistons went to Auburn Hills and are now thinking about coming back
5. The SE Michigan infrastructure is built so that everything leads to Detroit. Until you can build a diagonal freeway connecting Ann Arbor to Pontiac, Detroit is always going to be a central location....

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12-04-2012, 11:54 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
1. Land is dirt cheap in the city and expensive in the burbs.
2. Ilitch and co have half detroit in their back pocket.
3. Ilitch wants to go down as a guy who helped rebuild Detroit.
4. What's so great about the burbs? The Lions went to Pontiac and came back. The Pistons went to Auburn Hills and are now thinking about coming back
5. The SE Michigan infrastructure is built so that everything leads to Detroit. Until you can build a diagonal freeway connecting Ann Arbor to Pontiac, Detroit is always going to be a central location....
Yea Illitch wants to be seen as the guy to save Detroit...with other people's money. Detroit is a ghost town, it was a mistake for the NHL to build the Devils' arena in Newark and Detroit is ten times worse than that. In my book put it in the suburbs or anywhere else he wants to but not near the city. Change cities if you must. Call them the Michigan Red Wings.

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12-05-2012, 12:07 AM
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If the Wings ever slip in the standings, I fear how bad attendance gets. It's not that people there don't like hockey, it's that downtown is scary and there are no jobs.









Downright terrifying down there!

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12-05-2012, 12:12 AM
  #31
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Downright terrifying down there!
Probably wouldn't be too hard to take some snapshots from anywhere and make it look nice. I'm not necessarily doubting you, I've been to Detroit once in my life and had a good experience, but I don't think three pictures makes a city.

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12-05-2012, 12:14 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Yea Illitch wants to be seen as the guy to save Detroit...with other people's money. Detroit is a ghost town, it was a mistake for the NHL to build the Devils' arena in Newark and Detroit is ten times worse than that. In my book put it in the suburbs or anywhere else he wants to but not near the city. Change cities if you must. Call them the Michigan Red Wings.
so what you're saying is that you have no concept of what the area is actually like and think we should base all of our decisions based on outsiders warped perspectives? cool. I suppose we should move the Lions and Tigers out, too, even though they've been huge successes down there. And all the casinos that rake in millions. And all the acclaimed restaurants, too. Don't they all know that a bunch of people who have never been here have some vague idea that Detroit = hell incarnate?

There is no suburban location that's as optimal as downtown. Downtown is the only location that is convenient for everyone in the region since it is the central hub of the local freeway system. Downtown is not at all unsafe, it's empty. Filled in the day by business people and then deserted at night when there's no events going on. Building a new arena with a retail and residential complex attached would do wonders for the area.

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12-05-2012, 12:18 AM
  #33
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Probably wouldn't be too hard to take some snapshots from anywhere and make it look nice.
Except that you won't be able to find a "scary" picture of downtown Detroit, because the only thing "scary" about it is the name Detroit. And everyone who counts (ie. the people who live here) know this.

The crime and the burning buildings and the crack addicts are all in peripheral neighborhoods (especially on the east side or in the south). Those are the places anyone with a brain would be scared to go. Downtown Detroit is a business and entertainment district bounded by the river and midtown (which is basically a university campus with museums, the library and the symphony). It's mostly empty.

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12-05-2012, 12:25 AM
  #34
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I've read lots of things about Detroit (It's a city that I find interesting because of all the chaos and issues. Very intriguing place to learn about.), but one thing I learned yesterday that was pretty nuts is that there are no chain grocery stores in the city itself. All the Krogers, Meijers, Walmarts, Targets or whatever else are completely in the suburbs because they don't want to deal with the dangers of Detroit. It's mindblowing. That doesn't just happen in any city.
If you think that's really down to "danger" you need to do some reading. Grocery stores are conspicuously absent in most severely low income areas, and they often move out long before the violence moves in.

And it's soon to be untrue, as Whole Foods is opening two locations in the city soon. I believe Meijer is, as well.

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12-05-2012, 04:07 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
If you think that's really down to "danger" you need to do some reading. Grocery stores are conspicuously absent in most severely low income areas, and they often move out long before the violence moves in.

And it's soon to be untrue, as Whole Foods is opening two locations in the city soon. I believe Meijer is, as well.
Well, obviously it comes down to making money, but no doubt, companies don't want to put stores in areas where there's a risk of crime because it just cuts into their profits.

I never thought about any supermarket shortage in bad areas in cities in the States until I looked on it a little more just now, but apparently it's a real problem.

Anyway, about the arena: Agreed that Kimota's post is a total joke, especially since there's a lot of empty land west of the Fox that could be turned into something good.

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12-05-2012, 06:13 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Yea Illitch wants to be seen as the guy to save Detroit...with other people's money. Detroit is a ghost town, it was a mistake for the NHL to build the Devils' arena in Newark and Detroit is ten times worse than that. In my book put it in the suburbs or anywhere else he wants to but not near the city. Change cities if you must. Call them the Michigan Red Wings.
I don't understand your reasoning on two points here:

1) the Joe works fine and it's downtown, it's just getting too old
2) what's your evidence that it was a mistake to move to Newark? Attendance wasn't any higher at Meadowlands.

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12-05-2012, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Except that you won't be able to find a "scary" picture of downtown Detroit, because the only thing "scary" about it is the name Detroit. And everyone who counts (ie. the people who live here) know this.

The crime and the burning buildings and the crack addicts are all in peripheral neighborhoods (especially on the east side or in the south). Those are the places anyone with a brain would be scared to go. Downtown Detroit is a business and entertainment district bounded by the river and midtown (which is basically a university campus with museums, the library and the symphony). It's mostly empty.
im afraid you will likely forever have to defend your city against outdated thoughts like these, brodie. ive been down in that area many times over the several years and can also attest to the remarkable transformation. but i would suggest rather than trying to prove to others that they are uninformed, keep it your little secret and enjoy it.

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Old
12-05-2012, 07:50 AM
  #38
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I don't understand your reasoning on two points here:

1) the Joe works fine and it's downtown, it's just getting too old
2) what's your evidence that it was a mistake to move to Newark? Attendance wasn't any higher at Meadowlands.
If I may, Detroit is the kind of place that if you talk about traveling to, you will hear 1001 rumor about how in the middle of the street in front of the police station at noon you will get robber, ***** and shot all at once how dangerous it is.

But honestly, you gotta go there, see it to understand that it's not what people say it is. I've been twice to Detroit, once on a 1day pitstop to Chichago, once to actually see the Wings play in Joe. May not be the best city i've visited so far (I'm in love with Boston tho), but it's far from being the worse.

And you can't compare Devils situation. Devils were blamed to have built an arena in ''ghetto'' while they had many other parts of the city more ''public friendly''. Detroit main problem is economy, not gangsters and wannabe thugs.

Hey, I've read news of tourist getting shot on Broadway in late afternoon...guess NYC is pretty dangerous aswell.

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12-05-2012, 08:56 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
I don't understand your reasoning on two points here:

1) the Joe works fine and it's downtown, it's just getting too old
2) what's your evidence that it was a mistake to move to Newark? Attendance wasn't any higher at Meadowlands.
That place is a dump, people are afraid to go there.

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If I may, Detroit is the kind of place that if you talk about traveling to, you will hear 1001 rumor about how in the middle of the street in front of the police station at noon you will get robber, ***** and shot all at once how dangerous it is.

But honestly, you gotta go there, see it to understand that it's not what people say it is. I've been twice to Detroit, once on a 1day pitstop to Chichago, once to actually see the Wings play in Joe. May not be the best city i've visited so far (I'm in love with Boston tho), but it's far from being the worse.

And you can't compare Devils situation. Devils were blamed to have built an arena in ''ghetto'' while they had many other parts of the city more ''public friendly''. Detroit main problem is economy, not gangsters and wannabe thugs.

Hey, I've read news of tourist getting shot on Broadway in late afternoon...guess NYC is pretty dangerous aswell.
Here's the thing, if you go to Detroit itself it's a beautiful city, lots of a good-looking (deserted) buildings but it's really around it that it's like a setting for some Apocalyptic zombie movie.

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12-05-2012, 09:02 AM
  #40
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That place is a dump, people are afraid to go there.
Yeah well the Joe is a dump and it's sandwiched between a freeway and a river.

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12-05-2012, 09:54 AM
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And you can't compare Devils situation. Devils were blamed to have built an arena in ''ghetto'' while they had many other parts of the city more ''public friendly''. Detroit main problem is economy, not gangsters and wannabe thugs.
To be fair Detroit is still the most dangerous city in the U.S. despite crime dropping 10%. There are a lot more problems than just violence and a shoddy economy. Apathetic citizens. Illiterate children and parents that don't care they are. A pastor saying they'd rather burn the city down than let white people take over. I try to defend Detroit the best I can but it's a perfect example of what ignorance, corruption and apathy will do to a city. If there is a turn around it won't be for another 30-40 years when the older generation start to die off.

The prospect of a new arena and bars surrounding it should help Detroit's economy though, a little. I'd be willing to stay downtown for an extended period of time after a game as opposed to hitting Cobo Joe's for a beer and heading to a bar near my house.

*edit* Never say Fishbone's in Pegasus. Trust me on that one. If you want to have some good food try Santorini. It used to be Mosiac's and they also lowered the prices. Flew in a chef from Greece to do the menu and cook. Good stuff.


Last edited by TatarTangle: 12-05-2012 at 10:02 AM.
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12-05-2012, 10:41 AM
  #42
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Downtown is not deserted. All the restaurants are packed at lunch.
lol not sure if that was a joke but it was damn funny.

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12-05-2012, 11:15 AM
  #43
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That place is a dump, people are afraid to go there.
Please answer the question.

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12-05-2012, 11:16 AM
  #44
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Let's look at the nuts and bolts of the proposal:

http://www.mlive.com/business/detroi...plans_new.html

Quote:
The proposed mixed-use development would be funded by a mix of private investment and existing money collected by the city’s DDA. No new taxes would be needed to build the development, but the state would need to pass House Bill 5463 to allow the DDA to continue to get money for these kinds of developments.


A Senate committee unanimously approved a bill supporting the arena on Tuesday. It's likely to come up for a vote before the full Senate on Wednesday.
...
“This plan makes good business sense for two reasons,” George W. Jackson, Jr., president and CEO of Detroit Economic Growth Corporation, said in the release. “First, it’s not a plan for an isolated, single-use structure. Instead, it builds on the clear successes we’ve already had downtown integrating districts that feature entertainment, and support commercial, retail and residential development around them. Second, it doesn’t impose any new tax burdens; it simply continues a program for retiring debt related to economic development. It’s hard to argue with that.”
http://www.freep.com/article/2012120...nment-district

Quote:
Legislation introduced in Lansing would create a new “catalyst development project” that could benefit from support from the Michigan Strategic Fund and also from the use of Downtown Development Authority tax revenues that support projects in the central business district.

The proposed legislation defines “catalyst development project” as one that is designated by the local Downtown Development Authority, which results in at least $300 million in capital investment, and that takes place in a city with a population of at least 600,000 – in other words, in Detroit. The city may designate only one such project, under the legislation.
Would be nice to know how much is being privately invested. The next paragraph makes it sound like the only public money needed would be as security on the construction bonds-- so maybe ultimately not used?

Quote:
It allows a downtown development authority in a city with a population greater than 600,000 to capture taxes, including school taxes, to help finance certain development projects. For a “catalyst development,” such as the Ilitch proposal, the captured taxes could be used as security for construction bonds. The bill also provides for exemptions from property taxes and transfer taxes.

A Senate Fiscal Agency analysis said the bill “would reduce both state School Aid Fund revenue and local tax revenue by an unknown amount.”
Really? Maybe it's something they should figure out (the amount). It's not like Detroit schools are swimming in money.



Moving on, the Detroit News has a few more figures, which don't sound very bad at all:
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...text|FRONTPAGE
Quote:
Olympia rolled out the redevelopment proposal Tuesday in a presentation to state lawmakers, who are being asked to repurpose up to $12.8 million in Detroit Downtown Development Authority funds for the project. A Senate committee held a hearing Tuesday on an amended House Bill 5463 that would allow Olympia Development to apply for DDA funds, said Rep. John Walsh, R-Livonia.
"It's not a tax increase. It's a repurposing of existing revenue," Walsh told The Detroit News.
....

H.B. 5463, sponsored by Walsh, began as a bill to exempt downtown development authorities from paying property taxes, giving them the same tax break afforded to economic development corporations. Walsh said he was approached during the summer by the Ilitch organization, Detroit officials and Gov. Rick Snyder's office about expanding the scope of the legislation to include the proposed arena and mixed-use development.
Thus the exemption on paying property taxes on a currently unknown amount of land would result in the potential loss of revenue for school funding and whatever else is funded via property taxation. Of course, for the future, an exemption on property taxes on the value of whatever is built on this land is probably the greater potential loss, although without a tax break it might never get built. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Anyway, would be nice if someone dug up some numbers. It does sound like the construction itself would be privately funded though.


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12-05-2012, 11:28 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Yea Illitch wants to be seen as the guy to save Detroit...with other people's money. Detroit is a ghost town, it was a mistake for the NHL to build the Devils' arena in Newark and Detroit is ten times worse than that. In my book put it in the suburbs or anywhere else he wants to but not near the city. Change cities if you must. Call them the Michigan Red Wings.
Hahaha.
The Michigan Red Wings?

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so what you're saying is that you have no concept of what the area is actually like and think we should base all of our decisions based on outsiders warped perspectives? cool. I suppose we should move the Lions and Tigers out, too, even though they've been huge successes down there. And all the casinos that rake in millions. And all the acclaimed restaurants, too. Don't they all know that a bunch of people who have never been here have some vague idea that Detroit = hell incarnate?

There is no suburban location that's as optimal as downtown. Downtown is the only location that is convenient for everyone in the region since it is the central hub of the local freeway system. Downtown is not at all unsafe, it's empty. Filled in the day by business people and then deserted at night when there's no events going on. Building a new arena with a retail and residential complex attached would do wonders for the area.
I agree, but I won't say downtown is safe.

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12-05-2012, 01:34 PM
  #46
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The city of Detroit is a disaster zone and the poster child for urban blight, decay and lawlessness. Luckily the last of my family finally escaped. It's the suburbs that are keeping the Detroit metro afloat. "Suburbs good, cities bad" is actually true in the case of Detroit.

It's all very sad. And this is about the 20th urban renewal of Detroit I've read about. Hard to imagine it'll be more effective than the 19 previous urban renewals.

Population in the city recently fell below 700k -- it lost 25% in the just the past decade. It was 1.5M in 1970, 1.2M in 1980, 1M in 1990, 950k in 2000. And the population that is left is the poorest, most illiterate, most criminal of any large city in America. It's incredibly sad what's happened to Detroit.

The city refused to protect it's hard-working, productive, tax-paying, non-criminal, educated populace. Detroit let rampant criminality and lawlessness drive out over half it's residents in a few decades.
Maybe the suburbs should not exist so people cannot benefit from the Detroit downtown jobs without paying for it

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12-05-2012, 02:26 PM
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Downright terrifying down there!
Looks very nice from those angles but my town of 10,000 people has more cars and people parusing around

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12-05-2012, 02:27 PM
  #48
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God it's like deja vu.

This, by the way, is a very similar concept that Katz in Edmonton developed. The city in the midst of an economic boom due to the oilfields. That was completely shot down.

Now the city of Edmonton has decided it is going to scrap the revitalization plan and stick with a single-purpose building that is scaled down significantly. On top of that, the city is paying for the whole thing. Makes a lot of sense, right?

If anything, Detroit using this model and actually succeeding in developing it should very interesting to watch. I've always thought this type of model would be wildly successful for both the public and the tenants. To see it succeed in Detroit and then watch Edmonton's daft plan fall flat on its face is going to be very telling.

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12-05-2012, 02:46 PM
  #49
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Let's look at the nuts and bolts of the proposal:

http://www.mlive.com/business/detroi...plans_new.html



http://www.freep.com/article/2012120...nment-district



Would be nice to know how much is being privately invested. The next paragraph makes it sound like the only public money needed would be as security on the construction bonds-- so maybe ultimately not used?



Really? Maybe it's something they should figure out (the amount). It's not like Detroit schools are swimming in money.



Moving on, the Detroit News has a few more figures, which don't sound very bad at all:
I believe your words from the Forbes thread are very applicable here.

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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post

Maybe it's just too expensive to have pro teams in cities where not enough demand exists. It shouldn't be the role of government to pay millionaires and billionaires to entertain you, and further line their own pockets.
No Detroit public money should be used on this project. Do you agree?

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12-05-2012, 02:49 PM
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this thread reminds of an incident when I was coming home for Christmas... in the airport, I encountered a girl crying on her cell phone shouting "MOM, I DON'T CARE THAT I'M STUCK... IT'S JUST THAT I'M IN DETROIT! I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN BUT I'M SO SCARED!"

I didn't have the heart to tell her she was in a brand new airport terminal in a suburb 15 miles away from the city.

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