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Ilitch Announces New Arena Plans

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Old
12-05-2012, 02:57 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by ThePhoenixx View Post
I believe your words from the Forbes thread are very applicable here.

No Detroit public money should be used on this project. Do you agree?
Absolutely. Which is why I'm trying to pin down the dollars of it all. See my comment about school funding above.

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12-05-2012, 03:01 PM
  #52
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Absolutely. Which is why I'm trying to pin down the dollars of it all. See my comment about school funding above.

I thought so, I just wanted to be sure.

I doubt that will be the case though.

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12-05-2012, 03:10 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by ThePhoenixx View Post
I thought so, I just wanted to be sure.

I doubt that will be the case though.

You're probably right. One way they may be able to sell it is if it actually doesn't create new taxes; and if the amount isn't very large. $12 MM doesn't sound terrible, but it still is public money. I don't know what/where that development fund was going towards, so at a minimum it is a diversion.

Still, on principle, I would prefer if these businesses that invest in the project that provides all those jobs just made it a private enterprise. Pay your property taxes like the rest of us do. The public shouldn't have to give money back from one coffer since it gets money in the sales and income tax categories. These businesses should be able to recoup their money if there is a demand for the shops, apartments, services, etc., housed therein (especially if you set the ultimate price points at a level that will allow you to recoup on your investment). The thing that ends up happening is that more than needed is done, or the costs rise because there is some public contribution.

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12-05-2012, 03:19 PM
  #54
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Is what's being said in this thread actually true?

About Detroit's rich and educated leaving and now its just a deserted war zone?

Seems......a bit unrealistic.

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12-05-2012, 03:24 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by MISC View Post
Is what's being said in this thread actually true?

About Detroit's rich and educated leaving and now its just a deserted war zone?

Seems......a bit unrealistic.
It's not.

I once took a local bus from the airport to downtown. It's nothing but liquor stores, beauty supply stores and boarded up houses. When you get downtown, there are some nice old buildings and absolutely no people on the streets.

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12-05-2012, 03:27 PM
  #56
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It's not.

I once took a local bus from the airport to downtown. It's nothing but liquor stores, beauty supply stores and boarded up houses. When you get downtown, there are some nice old buildings and absolutely no people on the streets.

Sad.

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12-05-2012, 03:30 PM
  #57
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I fear that we will be talking about Detroit relocation in 20 years. That city is a disaster zone, gotta be crazy to build a new arena.

Anyone seen Pistons attendance lately?

If the Wings ever slip in the standings, I fear how bad attendance gets. It's not that people there don't like hockey, it's that downtown is scary and there are no jobs.
This is ridiculous, Detroit still has a plethora of fortune 500 companies and tons of money in the surrounding area. The city itself has been struggling since the 60's riots on a long decline. That doesn't mean even with the trouble the autos hit that all the money in the area has evaporated. It just doesn't go to the city of Detroit. When you have crooks like Coleman Young and Kwame Kilpatrick running the city over the years it is not surprising. But this notion that there is no cash and all is lost is painting a picture that is a little more disastrous than is really the case.

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12-05-2012, 03:30 PM
  #58
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And you can't compare Devils situation. Devils were blamed to have built an arena in ''ghetto'' while they had many other parts of the city more ''public friendly''. Detroit main problem is economy, not gangsters and wannabe thugs.
Not true.. The Devils built their arena in the downtown area of Newark, easily the most gentrified part of the city with the lowest crime rate, Prudential HQ, now Panasonic's HQ, lots of shopping, hotels, restaurants, mass transit hub, etc.. It was and still is the best section of Newark

Much like the Wings seem to want to do, the Devils wanted to come in and really help that downtown area of the city get rejuvenated and come back.. The recession pissed on that, but it's slowly coming around with new hotels, new upscale housing, much nicer restaurants etc..

I see exactly what the Wings want to do and I applaud it.. The recession hurt Newark's comeback but the Devils have really helped the area.. You can see the lockout's affects on the local business owners.. Revitalizing an urban area is slow and difficult because you have to change suburbaner's typically radical thoughts that they will be shot and ***** immediately in said urban area

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12-05-2012, 03:32 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by MISC View Post
Is what's being said in this thread actually true?

About Detroit's rich and educated leaving and now its just a deserted war zone?

Seems......a bit unrealistic.
Yup - completely true.

Nothing left there but abandoned desolation - and zombies.

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12-05-2012, 03:38 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MISC View Post
Is what's being said in this thread actually true?

About Detroit's rich and educated leaving and now its just a deserted war zone?

Seems......a bit unrealistic.

That started decades ago. There was an excellent article in TIME about a year or two ago that chronicled the fall of Detroit. In the first half of the 20th century, it was called the Paris of the West--- stunning architecture, parks, and all the economic benefits of what the auto industry had spawned during its heyday. Once the civil rights unrest and race relations worsened, white flight began in earnest in the 1960's and into the 1970's. Entire sections of the city were abandoned, burned out. I don't remember the actual acreage involved, but one of the reclamation proposals was to turn all that empty space back into farmland and open space. We are talking about hundreds of acres of land.

The city proper doesn't even have a million people living in it any longer, I think it's down to 706K now. At it's peak, in 1950, the city had 1,850,000 people. Now.... read that again and correct for the time period. In 1950, that made Detroit the 5th largest city in the US, behind only NYC, Chicago, Philly, and LA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950_United_States_Census

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12-05-2012, 03:40 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
You're probably right. One way they may be able to sell it is if it actually doesn't create new taxes; and if the amount isn't very large. $12 MM doesn't sound terrible, but it still is public money. I don't know what/where that development fund was going towards, so at a minimum it is a diversion.

Still, on principle, I would prefer if these businesses that invest in the project that provides all those jobs just made it a private enterprise. Pay your property taxes like the rest of us do. The public shouldn't have to give money back from one coffer since it gets money in the sales and income tax categories. These businesses should be able to recoup their money if there is a demand for the shops, apartments, services, etc., housed therein (especially if you set the ultimate price points at a level that will allow you to recoup on your investment). The thing that ends up happening is that more than needed is done, or the costs rise because there is some public contribution.
Couldn't they use the public money as a loan that is paid off with interest over time?

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12-05-2012, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
That started decades ago. There was an excellent article in TIME about a year or two ago that chronicled the fall of Detroit. In the first half of the 20th century, it was called the Paris of the West--- stunning architecture, parks, and all the economic benefits of what the auto industry had spawned during its heyday. Once the civil rights unrest and race relations worsened, white flight began in earnest in the 1960's and into the 1970's. Entire sections of the city were abandoned, burned out. I don't remember the actual acreage involved, but one of the reclamation proposals was to turn all that empty space back into farmland and open space. We are talking about hundreds of acres of land.

The city proper doesn't even have a million people living in it any longer, I think it's down to 706K now. At it's peak, in 1950, the city had 1,850,000 people. Now.... read that again and correct for the time period. In 1950, that made Detroit the 5th largest city in the US, behind only NYC, Chicago, Philly, and LA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950_United_States_Census

706k? Wow. That's nothing.

I always thought Detroit had 5+ million people. Seemed like a huge, productive city in my mind.

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12-05-2012, 03:44 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by MISC View Post
706k? Wow. That's nothing.

I always thought Detroit had 5+ million people. Seemed like a huge, productive city in my mind.
Metro area has little over 5 million people.

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12-05-2012, 03:50 PM
  #64
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lol not sure if that was a joke but it was damn funny.
No, just combating the [mod: perceptions] in here. Unfortunately, everyone has been watching too many movies and has no clue about Downtown Detroit drastically improving. People probably don't realize that midtown, corktown, and downtown are a white majority and white people are actually moving into these areas from the suburbs. But hey who needs the truth, the Red Wings should be located in ****ing Clarkston.


Last edited by Fugu: 12-05-2012 at 03:51 PM. Reason: ...
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12-05-2012, 03:58 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by ArGarBarGar View Post
Couldn't they use the public money as a loan that is paid off with interest over time?
I suppose one could do lots of things, but the details are difficult to find at this point. All we know so far is that the development fund would be used as security for the construction costs; and that an exemption for property taxes is being sought. Mind you, I know that's fairly typical for companies claiming to be bringing jobs to a community. Speaking for myself, I simply don't like the use of public funds in arena financing.



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706k? Wow. That's nothing.

I always thought Detroit had 5+ million people. Seemed like a huge, productive city in my mind.
Metro Detroit has about 5.5 million people, and one of the richest counties in the country (Oakland County). While the auto industry has weakened, there are still billions of dollars floating around the region. Two Big Ten universities are housed within that metro region (UofMich, MichState), adding tens of thousands of jobs to their cities-- profs, staff, hospitals/clinics/doctors, and of course the money students bring in... easily 100K students between the two schools, iirc. Last year, U of Michigan ranked as the second highest recipient in research funding ($1.24 billion-ish), just behind Johns Hopkins-- out of all US universities.

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12-05-2012, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by MISC View Post
706k? Wow. That's nothing.

I always thought Detroit had 5+ million people. Seemed like a huge, productive city in my mind.
The surrounding area still does have a ton of people, they just don't live in the city.

West/Southwest of the City:
Dearborn - 97,144
Dearborn Heights - 57,186
Livonia - 95,958
Novi - 55,583
Westland - 83,239
Canton - 76,366
Taylor - 62,489
Farmington Hills - 80,258 (Kind of North also putting them with west)
West Bloomfield - 64,690 (Kind of North also)
Ann Arbor - 114,925

A bunch of these are surrounded by towns that are 20,000 to 40,000 but want seperate govenments.

North/Northeast

Sterling Heights - 129,880
Shelby Charter Township - 65,159
Charter Township of Clinton - 96,796
Royal Oak - 57,607
Bloomfield/Birmingham - 61,305 (One of the wealthiest places in the country still)
Rochester Hills - 71,452
Troy - 81,508
Southfield - 72,201
Warren - 134,243

This doesn't include place like Waterford, Pontiac, Auburn Hills (where the Pistons play) or rolling all of the five parts of Grosse Pointe into one number. Detroit's surrounding area really is broken into several smaller cities.

The Government still projects the southeast counties to grow. This is basically the five major counties that surround Detroit. Which has a population of roughly 5 million or in other words the entire state of Minnesota.

Michigan has 10 million people in the state so roughly half of the state's population is housed in the Detroit area. Windsor Canada is also very much an offshoot of Detroit. So you can factor that in as potential audience. Detroit sports teams also control the Toledo area by in large.

But this is precisely why Detroit functions as a high market team while people around the country scratch their heads. It really does have a statewide following but the area itself is much larger than the declining Detroit city limits numbers would tell you. They have huge corporate partners and big television deals for local coverage. The area is a little more healthy than a lot of the doom and gloom people make it out to be.

This also ignores the fact that if Detroit itself really was on deaths door and this more means a lot of the surrounding area companies. What do you think would happen next? Well for instance Johnson Controls is the largest company in Wisconsin but makes almost all their money supplying the auto industry. Ford did this with Visteon moving almost all of their jobs to the Detroit area. If the way of life is completely threatened it is more likely Detroit does this kind of thing in the future. Most of what remains in the area is not moving. Outside of the loss of Kmart to Sears I can't think of a whole lot on that front.

In fact Detroit exports owners. Dan Gilbert, Peter Karmanos, Ralph Wilson, and even the late Bill Davidson (owner of the Pistons and Tampa Bay Lightning )are all Detroit residents. Gilbert might have moved to Cleveland to help with his Casino plan and really he is basically trying to become the Mike Ilitch of Cleveland in my opinion with the market cornered in Detroit on that gig. Karmanos (Compuware) and Gilbert (Quicken Loans) in fact both house their companies corporate headquarters in the same Compuware building in downtown Detroit.

States with more fortune 500 companies than Michigan

California
Illinois
New York
Ohio
Pennsylvania
Texas

That is it and those that remain in Michigan are unlikely to leave.

By the way that doesn't even include a single one of the companies that helped any of those men outside of the Ford family own teams in pro sports.

Guardian glass and securities
Little Caesars
Compuware
Dominos
Quicken Loans

Are all noticeably absent from that data.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...states/MI.html

Even with the auto industries decline, you will notice no longer is GM #1 or 2 on this list, but both they and Ford with all their problems still come in 8th and 10th in the entire country. You can bet on the city to die, but it really confuses me and at no point really is a team going to be seriously considered as being taken out of this market in any league. Remember talk of the Pistons when they were up for sale maybe going to Vegas or something along those lines and Stern basically said they would never leave Detroit in any circumstance. It is still a very wealthy area with deep pockets, large local television deals and strong corporate partners. As far as sports markets it remains in the top 10 quite easily and that is why they function like big market teams currently in Baseball and in the past in hockey. Quite simply it is a huge market and most of people's understanding of the Detroit area is incredibly flawed because it is a complex issue and if you don't know the area and don't understand a lot about it you will make [well-informed] conclusions


Last edited by Fugu: 12-05-2012 at 06:28 PM. Reason: nicer way to say that
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12-05-2012, 05:19 PM
  #67
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I believe your words from the Forbes thread are very applicable here.



No Detroit public money should be used on this project. Do you agree?
Or state money either.

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12-05-2012, 05:26 PM
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Or state money either.
That is fine but they better not come looking with their hands turned out either if Ilitch does this alone. There is a reason this has gained a lot of traction in Lansing they seem to see some merit in this, we will see if the State Senate is as receptive as the house, but it was quickly endorsed there.

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12-05-2012, 05:54 PM
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Politicians love urban renewal projects, and helping the Wings get a new arena is a vote winner.

Illitch has earned anything he wants - except public money. That's not about erecting hurdles (pols can and should do everything they can to make this arena happen), it's just about setting a basic ground rule. The man's wealth is in the billions and his ballpark got public money, it's hardly spitting in his face.

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12-05-2012, 07:24 PM
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For those who missed it, Michigan Senate has approved it.

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12-05-2012, 08:10 PM
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I didn't have the heart to tell her she was in a brand new airport terminal in a suburb 15 miles away from the city.
Heh. If you had a heart, you would have told her.

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12-05-2012, 08:21 PM
  #72
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There is a reason this has gained a lot of traction in Lansing
yeah, it's the money the Michigan Republicans are getting from their Amway overlords

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12-05-2012, 08:36 PM
  #73
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yeah, it's the money the Michigan Republicans are getting from their Amway overlords
Don't live in the state anymore but if they have 27 senate seats all to themselves I would be stunned. This passed the state senate at 27-11.

This is a little more complex than just one evil side of the isle and I think unfair to put that way. While the 12.8 million they had been paying over the years was about to free up there was a fight over how that would be used also. The democratic leader that ripped this plan wanted to put it in college funds. Sounds nice but that isn't for the total benefit of all Detroit school children either. Some absolutely, but they were going to have a big fight about what to do with it anyway. I am not even sure they weren't trying to push some of that money statewide, as Gretchen Whitmer who is making most the noise about this is a representative not from the Detroit area.

8,300 projected jobs with 1.9 million right there and a projected long term gain over a billion dollars pumped in doesn't sound to bad either. I am waiting to see where they want to put this to get more critical on it. But on the surface I can see why they supported it and I think people are jumping the gun here. The wings were going to get a new arena at somepoint, if this is done correctly it could be a huge gain for the city of Detroit.

I do wonder what the league thinks of this. I am sure the NHLPA could start running new numbers on Detroit, this stadium will likely push them higher up the food chain and they are already a decent earner.

Also just to be clear Ilitch really sits on both sides, but they track money on big figures like this so his history of giving money to candidates is well known.

http://www.newsmeat.com/billionaire_...ael_Ilitch.php

* Very surprised as a search shows that Republicans do in fact hold 26 of the 38 seats.


Last edited by The Zetterberg Era: 12-05-2012 at 09:04 PM. Reason: Correction
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12-05-2012, 09:30 PM
  #74
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Last year, U of Michigan ranked as the second highest recipient in research funding ($1.24 billion-ish), just behind Johns Hopkins-- out of all US universities.
Interesting... but not true. My own institution claims:

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UW is also the largest recipient of federal research funding among public universities and second among all public and private universities in the country, a position that the university has held each year since 1974.
That's from Wikipedia (referring to the University of Washington, Seattle). Appears to be true. UW brought in $1.513 billion in 2011.

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12-05-2012, 09:45 PM
  #75
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Interesting... but not true. My own institution claims:

That's from Wikipedia (referring to the University of Washington, Seattle). Appears to be true. UW brought in $1.513 billion in 2011.


The UofM blurb links to the 2010 NSF tables.

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