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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Lockout II - Moderated: Talk about your plenty, Talk about your ills...

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Old
12-05-2012, 05:43 PM
  #676
mossey3535
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
The owners know exactly what they want (Profit) and they will get it.
So, are their non-player costs proportional to the amount of season paid? If they make-whole the players this year, there will be little to no profit again.

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12-05-2012, 05:44 PM
  #677
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The players are not negotiating with themselves. This is a two way street.
But it was ok for the owners to table two or three offers in a row?

The time to get a deal done is now. I suggest the players do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
It exists for a reason.
Yup, the MLB strike that cancelled the World Series.

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Old
12-05-2012, 05:45 PM
  #678
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
So, are their non-player costs proportional to the amount of season paid? If they make-whole the players this year, there will be little to no profit again.
If the owners get a 50/50 split on a Ten year deal. The players will have given up a significant amount of money over the life of that contract.

Especially if the league continues to grow at a 5% clip.

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12-05-2012, 05:47 PM
  #679
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
The time to get a deal done is now. I suggest the players do so.

Why not suggest that the owners do so?

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12-05-2012, 05:49 PM
  #680
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Why not suggest that the owners do so?
Cause they don't have too. I mean, that is the cold hard truth.

These owners are not rich because of hockey...

I know people don't like to hear that, but that's reality.

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12-05-2012, 05:54 PM
  #681
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Originally Posted by PenguinPower420 View Post
If the owners want the PA to share in the loss, the PA should have a say in business decisions and in long term strategies. If the mean player career is only 5 years, it stands to reason that he should not be expected to assume any risk or financial burden simply because the league - without any input whatsoever from the players or surrogates thereof - is pursuing a high risk southern expansion strategy that will never be of any benefit to him even if it does succeed. That's why the Germans use coordination and give workers a say in how firms operate. Last I checked, the Germany economy is doing pretty damn good. How's America doing again?
Are you even remotely serious?

Players play. They don't know a damn thing about business. They share in the profits because they're great players. They share in losses because most of America doesn't care about them being great players.

At no point does their skill set even begin to include business strategy.

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12-05-2012, 05:55 PM
  #682
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Maybe the owners can figure out a plan they actual want this time, so we don't go through this again in a few years.
That I'm not that sure about. I would think that RS would have to really increase for this system (using average HRR to determine the cap) to work without further issues down the road. However if this is working for the majority, and the profits are there to increase RS, then it shouldn't be a huge issue.

But then this CBA shouldn't have been a huge issue either... so who knows.

If you look at the revenue and project it out with growth (the leagues 5% or historical 7%), HRR (current definitions) will reach 5 billion somewhere between 6-9 years. 5B HRR puts the cap midpoint (assuming the split is 50%) around 83 million. Under the PA's last offer, that would put the cap floor/ceiling at 66m/100m. Under the NHL's offer (where I believe the floor/ceiling is still +/-8m), the floor/ceiling would be 75m/91m.

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12-05-2012, 05:56 PM
  #683
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Cause they don't have too. I mean, that is the cold hard truth.

These owners are not rich because of hockey...

I know people don't like to hear that, but that's reality.
so you really think Jacobs whos making a ton of money and who seems to be the ring leader is really intrested in what the other teams profit/ loss is?????

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12-05-2012, 05:56 PM
  #684
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Cause they don't have too. I mean, that is the cold hard truth.

These owners are not rich because of hockey...

I know people don't like to hear that, but that's reality.
That still doesn't mean the owners are willing to throw away the hundreds of millions of dollars they invested in their teams because they can afford to do so. The reality is, there are plenty of reasons why the owners are pressured to get a deal done, just as the players are.

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12-05-2012, 05:57 PM
  #685
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
If the owners get a 50/50 split on a Ten year deal. The players will have given up a significant amount of money over the life of that contract.

Especially if the league continues to grow at a 5% clip.
But that's predicated on the assumption that the players should have continued to make 57% - or even had a realistic chance of maintaining that %. I don't think that is a reasonable assumption.

Secondly, the players didn't even make 57% for the duration of the last CBA. This makes it even more unreasonable for them to feel entitled to that percentage.

Also, a 12% rollback on player salaries is approximately $8.5M at last year's cap hit. Simply adding that to the Forbes OpInc number doubles the number of teams able to break even or make a modest profit. However, this would not include make-whole numbers.

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12-05-2012, 05:58 PM
  #686
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
The owners know exactly what they want (Profit) and they will get it.
Why didn't they just figure that out last time they cancelled a season so we could've avoided this? This is their deal that's somehow now disastrous for them.

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12-05-2012, 06:02 PM
  #687
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
So, are their non-player costs proportional to the amount of season paid? If they make-whole the players this year, there will be little to no profit again.
Perhaps in year 1. However the NHL can't look at this as we need to "win" now. They MUST have a long view approach to this... at least to an extent anyway. Which was part of what pissed me off with how the NHL handled the negotiations (specifically regarding how they wanted to implement the split).

Besides, even being very pro owner, I could care less if missing 1/4 of the season means they (the NHL as a whole) only breaks even this year. The issue can't be all about the NHL posting big profits on a year to year basis and must be that the league as a whole is healthy overall on a long term basis.

Will this CBA achieve that? Without seeing it, but looking at what's been proposed (and what the PA might actually agree to), I'd say probably only slightly better than the last CBA (due to a lower split, more RS, and potentially more restrictive contractual rights).

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12-05-2012, 06:11 PM
  #688
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So when I left, there was much ado about great progress (and I commented on it), now reading that a PA proposal has been submitted to NHL. And now things are....quieting down?

Be interesting to see, I would have thought a NHL proposal would have been issued, not a PA one-concerns me that being PA, and not being "what the owners want" (ALL owners-not just the 6 there today) and 24 hours from now we'll be back to negativity again about the process.

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12-05-2012, 06:13 PM
  #689
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Originally Posted by Some Other Flame View Post
That still doesn't mean the owners are willing to throw away the hundreds of millions of dollars they invested in their teams because they can afford to do so. The reality is, there are plenty of reasons why the owners are pressured to get a deal done, just as the players are.
Not really. The NHL as a whole only posted ~250m in profits last year. How many expenses do they have if they're not paying the players (assuming a full year is lost)??

Some staff and offices and whatnot? Toss in some debt payment and taxes and whatnot... and that's maybe 10-20m per team? Then the owners will be able to rent out their buildings to non-hockey events to re-coop these costs (so while the hockey team takes a hit, their other companies will make up a chunk of that).

So the NHL might (collectively) have to shell out a 100m or so in actual losses (maybe even 200m). But regardless of what that number is, it's only a fraction of the 1.8 BILLION that the players lost by not playing.

Yes the owners have pressure to get a deal done, and sooner rather than later. However the pressure they face is only a fraction of what the players are feeling due to the fact they have been missing paycheques for the last 6 weeks. The owners (with a better CBA) will see their franchise values increase automatically, and over time will get to keep more of the revenue their team takes in (remember though that revenue does not equal profit).

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12-05-2012, 06:15 PM
  #690
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
So when I left, there was much ado about great progress (and I commented on it), now reading that a PA proposal has been submitted to NHL. And now things are....quieting down?

Be interesting to see, I would have thought a NHL proposal would have been issued, not a PA one-concerns me that being PA, and not being "what the owners want" (ALL owners-not just the 6 there today) and 24 hours from now we'll be back to negativity again about the process.
EDIT: wow, according to what people seem to think on the CBC website, they're all convinced that NHL hockey will start boxing day......

Didn't mean to quote myself lol.

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12-05-2012, 06:17 PM
  #691
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so if the owners and players make a deal, do they fire bettman and fehr on the spot for failing to do what they could?

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12-05-2012, 06:17 PM
  #692
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
One of the good things that may come out of this is Donald Fehr being discredited forever as a reasonable negotiator and a leader of any players' union.
You mean your opinion from the beginning will have been proven right? You don't say!!

Going to laugh when Donald Fehr retires and Steve Fehr takes over as NHLPA head.

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12-05-2012, 06:18 PM
  #693
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
So when I left, there was much ado about great progress (and I commented on it), now reading that a PA proposal has been submitted to NHL. And now things are....quieting down?
Maybe the NHL is talking the time to, you know, actually read the PA's proposal.

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12-05-2012, 06:21 PM
  #694
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Not really. The NHL as a whole only posted ~250m in profits last year. How many expenses do they have if they're not paying the players (assuming a full year is lost)??

Some staff and offices and whatnot? Toss in some debt payment and taxes and whatnot... and that's maybe 10-20m per team? Then the owners will be able to rent out their buildings to non-hockey events to re-coop these costs (so while the hockey team takes a hit, their other companies will make up a chunk of that).

So the NHL might (collectively) have to shell out a 100m or so in actual losses (maybe even 200m). But regardless of what that number is, it's only a fraction of the 1.8 BILLION that the players lost by not playing.

Yes the owners have pressure to get a deal done, and sooner rather than later. However the pressure they face is only a fraction of what the players are feeling due to the fact they have been missing paycheques for the last 6 weeks. The owners (with a better CBA) will see their franchise values increase automatically, and over time will get to keep more of the revenue their team takes in (remember though that revenue does not equal profit).
Bingo.

Which is also why the Owners want a 10 year CBA.

50/50 is perfect. More so if that Revenue pie starts to grow rapidly.

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12-05-2012, 06:21 PM
  #695
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
You mean your opinion from the beginning will have been proven right? You don't say!!

Going to laugh when Donald Fehr retires and Steve Fehr takes over as NHLPA head.
Steve Fehr >>>>>>> Donald Fehr

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Maybe the NHL is talking the time to, you know, actually read the PA's proposal.
Maybe this time the NHLPA proposal is more than one page, and isn't written in crayon.

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12-05-2012, 06:21 PM
  #696
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Maybe the NHL is talking the time to, you know, actually read the PA's proposal.
Instead of a 10 minute lookover?

I mean more quieting down as far the "highs" from earlier today as far as progress being reported, not about the actual business stuff.

If they do manage to do in a couple of meetings what hasn't been for 80 days, I'll be interested to see the numbers.

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12-05-2012, 06:22 PM
  #697
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You mean your opinion from the beginning will have been proven right? You don't say!!

Going to laugh when Donald Fehr retires and Steve Fehr takes over as NHLPA head.
Steve Fehr is not really like Donald.

Donald Fehr has proven to be an unreasonable man. That is why the NHL wanted him out of the room.

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12-05-2012, 06:27 PM
  #698
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
Instead of a 10 minute lookover?

I mean more quieting down as far the "highs" from earlier today as far as progress being reported, not about the actual business stuff.

If they do manage to do in a couple of meetings what hasn't been for 80 days, I'll be interested to see the numbers.
There was a bunch of news articles that people woke up to this morning reporting how things went lastnight... there's been little released about today's progress, so there's little for many to be posting on.

As for a deal getting done today vs 80 days ago... neither side had any real pressure to make concessions (or to lessen their demands). 6 weeks of no paycheques, and the league potentially seeing drops in advertising revenue puts more pressure on the groups to move off their positions to get a deal done.

So as much as I dislike the fact that the NHLPA's only real strategy was to delay things as much as possible, there was no real pressure until recently to actually get a deal done.

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12-05-2012, 06:27 PM
  #699
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If the next CBA is Steve Fehr and Bill Daly, I'd be confident (probably naively) that they'd avoid all this bs and just hammer out a fair deal. They've built a professional working relationship over this one and I'm not anxious for Bettman to try for his fourth lockout - yet another reason why a longer-term CBA would be fan-friendly.

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12-05-2012, 06:27 PM
  #700
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
If the owners get a 50/50 split on a Ten year deal. The players will have given up a significant amount of money over the life of that contract.

Especially if the league continues to grow at a 5% clip.
They aren't going to get much sympathy. Poor guys averaging $2.5 Million a year... They should be able to pay the mortgage and have enough left over for groceries.

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