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Old
12-05-2012, 03:17 PM
  #226
Halpysback
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Originally Posted by nmbr_24 View Post
You could use the exact same reasoning to say Bergeron is just about as good offensively as Backstrom then?

There is no denying that Backstom is better offensively and no denying even though you are giving it a good try, that Bergeron is better than Backstrom defensively.

You can make arguments to the contrary, but then a lot of us just see a biased argument going on.
I'd imagine if Bergeron was capable of routinely putting up 80-90 points with above average instead of Selke caliber defense he'd be his team's go to offensive guy first and foremost.

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12-05-2012, 03:18 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
You imply that at the end of every playoff, the leading scorer in should be a top line center from one of the Finals teams.

Maybe somebody can pop up some stats to show if this theory holds solid
Last year the cup winning 1C was Kopitar, and he was the leading scorer. Same for Krejci the year before, obviously. In 09-10, Toews was one point off the lead with one fewer game played. He lost out to Briere, who was the 1C/RW on the cup losing team. Before that it was Malkin in 08-09, who's basically the 1C. Kind of a unique situation there. And before that it was Zetterberg in 07-08... again, sort of a 1C. In 06-07, the Pizza line all tied for the lead on the cup loser. And 05-06 was Eric Staal, 1C on the cup winner.

So it holds true, for the most part.

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12-05-2012, 03:22 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by capitalsrock View Post
You're completely out of your mind if you think Backstrom has zero defense or you're just extremely biased and have a special man love for Bergeron. You win the cup and you think Bergeron is the second coming of Christ. He will not and can not produce top offensive points anywhere near Backstrom ever. He's obviously amazing defensively but Backstrom is great too and not as far off as you think.
You do realize that Bergeron twice put up 70 points before he turned 22?
Since then, a combination of factors, most notably injuries, and his changing role to more of a defensive specialist have limited his production. Having said that, you put Bergeron in a mainly offensive role with a guy like Ovechkin on his wing, and you certainly could argue he'd be capable of a PPG plus. He has that kind of talent.

Bergeron led the '05 WJC in scoring, on a team with some pretty serious firepower at a similar age to him - Getzlaff, Carter, Ovechkin, etc...

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12-05-2012, 03:22 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
Backstrom is clearly a great player... but is he what Boston needs to take the next step? Does Boston hurt their depth too much with this trade? Does it mess up the cap too much?

Our cup was won without a Backstrom type being the goto guy... Washington has been a playoff failure with a couple guys like this not being enough to get the job done.

Without depth you dont win these days... LA/CHICAGO did it with depth too.

Personally... I guess Boston would probably technically win this trade as far as on ice talent goes if all else was equal... but I think theres much better directions to move in. Moving Seguin to center... allowing him to be our special player... trading Krecji for a wing. Keeping depth.
By losing depth I assume you mean going from Marchand to Chimera? That's trading a 60 point LW who is a gamer in the playoffs for a 30-40 point LW who is a gamer in the playoffs. Not really irreplaceable with a solid prospect/trade/FA pickup.

Also, Boston won 3 game 7s, two of them by one goal. With Thomas having one of the best playoffs ever. They don't exactly have a formula that can be taken as gospel, especially now that Thomas is done. Not that depth isn't important.

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12-05-2012, 03:23 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by bb_fan View Post
Not at all.

I imply that as the fist line center i expect him to put up points.

I also imply that having played thru too game 7 of the cup finals that expect him to have equal or more points than players who played less games than he did in said playoff year.
That's fine, but to imply it was simply a product of the number of games he played is a little disingenious. He played great, and was a huge factor in the cup win.

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12-05-2012, 03:26 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
I'd imagine if Bergeron was capable of routinely putting up 80-90 points with above average instead of Selke caliber defense he'd be his team's go to offensive guy first and foremost.
Bergeron was our go to offensive guy, and twice put up 70+ pts prior to the age of 22. Since then, the Bruins have been blessed with some offensively talented centers in Savard and Krejci, and the Bruins are a defence first team, so he's been asked to take on a primarily defensive role.

Don't discount his skill level because he's asked to play against the other team's top line night in and night out. He still managed 64 points last year while playing with 2 very young wingers in Seguin and Marchand, and winning the Selke.

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12-05-2012, 03:29 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
Last year the cup winning 1C was Kopitar, and he was the leading scorer. Same for Krejci the year before, obviously. In 09-10, Toews was one point off the lead with one fewer game played. He lost out to Briere, who was the 1C/RW on the cup losing team. Before that it was Malkin in 08-09, who's basically the 1C. Kind of a unique situation there. And before that it was Zetterberg in 07-08... again, sort of a 1C. In 06-07, the Pizza line all tied for the lead on the cup loser. And 05-06 was Eric Staal, 1C on the cup winner.

So it holds true, for the most part.
Kopitar, Toews, Malkin, Zetterberg. #1C on winning teams, sure, but I'd argue that one of the huge reasons they led the playoffs in scoring was because they are special players too. Why does Krejci not get that consideration?

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12-05-2012, 05:00 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by fedfed View Post
"scrappy gritty"? Brouwer is "scrappy gritty", Marchand is plain dirty, without euphemisms.
Could be too much value from BOS side, but we do not need Brad Marchand. Do. Not. Need. For the exact same reason as we don't need Steve Downie, for example. Not our style of hockey.

Brad Marchand was suspended for clipping (hitting below the knee). If you watch the ice level video, Brad crouches down to avoid the check, and hits Salo mid-thigh. It was a BS suspension (in fact, that same game Ballard hit Campbell much lower - look it up)...

The Caps had 3 player suspensions last year (Backstrom, Ovi & Green). Each suspension was because of a cheap headshot.

Get off your high horse.

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12-05-2012, 05:03 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Killer B View Post
Brad Marchand was suspended for clipping (hitting below the knee). If you watch the ice level video, Brad crouches down to avoid the check, and hits Salo mid-thigh. It was a BS suspension (in fact, that same game Ballard hit Campbell much lower - look it up)...

The Caps had 3 player suspensions last year (Backstrom, Ovi & Green). Each suspension was because of a cheap headshot.

Get off your high horse.
Yet Boston fans do the same thing to Vancouver for diving, yet they employ a guy who dives as much and as blatantly.

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12-05-2012, 05:08 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by LSnow View Post
Yet Boston fans do the same thing to Vancouver for diving, yet they employ a guy who dives as much and as blatantly.

What? Show me a Boston fan who approves of Marchand's diving...

We all love the passion the little guy plays with, but we all HATE the fact that over the last year, he's turned into a diver... No Boston fan will deny that fact!

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12-05-2012, 07:35 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by cneely View Post
That's fine, but to imply it was simply a product of the number of games he played is a little disingenious. He played great, and was a huge factor in the cup win.
Where did i say it was product of the number if games played?

Where did i down play his play at all?

As a matter if fact... where did i say anything negative about him at all?

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12-05-2012, 08:49 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by bb_fan View Post
Where did i say it was product of the number if games played?

Where did i down play his play at all?

As a matter if fact... where did i say anything negative about him at all?
You didn't say anything negative at all. You did say that you find it a useless stat and he should be expected to lead the league. I disagree, that's all. I think he deserves more credit than that.

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12-05-2012, 09:26 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
Our cup was won without a Backstrom type being the goto guy... Washington has been a playoff failure with a couple guys like this not being enough to get the job done..
thats right. last season. rookie goalie(that beat the vezina goalie). previous season....rookie goalie. season before that....rookie goalie(still a rookie)....season before that....rookie goalie(that was so much a rookie that he was still a rookie the next season).

how often has a team won a cup with a rookie goalie since the capitals have been in the nhl? 1? 2?

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12-06-2012, 12:01 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
thats right. last season. rookie goalie(that beat the vezina goalie). previous season....rookie goalie. season before that....rookie goalie(still a rookie)....season before that....rookie goalie(that was so much a rookie that he was still a rookie the next season).

how often has a team won a cup with a rookie goalie since the capitals have been in the nhl? 1? 2?
To be fair Varlamov and Holty stood on their heads as rookie goalies in the playoffs. You can't blame them for playoff failures.

I still think the Caps would have won the cup in 09 if they had of gotten past the Pens.

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12-06-2012, 08:01 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
thats right. last season. rookie goalie(that beat the vezina goalie). previous season....rookie goalie. season before that....rookie goalie(still a rookie)....season before that....rookie goalie(that was so much a rookie that he was still a rookie the next season).

how often has a team won a cup with a rookie goalie since the capitals have been in the nhl? 1? 2?
I dont think goaltending was the Caps problem. Infact I think the fantastic goaltending was what carried the Caps. Their snakebitten offense couldnt muster up enough offense especially the Captain, he couldnt adjust to a defensively sound game plan.

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12-06-2012, 08:09 AM
  #241
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Yet Boston fans do the same thing to Vancouver for diving, yet they employ a guy who dives as much and as blatantly.
Nobody likes watching Marchand dive, nobody liked it when Savard used to dive.

Bruins fans don't like when a player dives and if you think that Marchand having a stupid game is equal to what Vancouver was doing every single game then I can't help you.

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12-06-2012, 08:15 AM
  #242
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
thats right. last season. rookie goalie(that beat the vezina goalie). previous season....rookie goalie. season before that....rookie goalie(still a rookie)....season before that....rookie goalie(that was so much a rookie that he was still a rookie the next season).

how often has a team won a cup with a rookie goalie since the capitals have been in the nhl? 1? 2?
Holtby was the reason they even got out of the first round, they were outplayed by a Boston team that was struggling to get their game going. Having Holtby in net won that series, I can't believe that you actually think that having Holtby in net is a valid excuse why they lost a playoff series.

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12-06-2012, 08:21 AM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Violent By Design View Post
To be fair Varlamov and Holty stood on their heads as rookie goalies in the playoffs. You can't blame them for playoff failures.

I still think the Caps would have won the cup in 09 if they had of gotten past the Pens.
sure you can. did you watch all those games? the reason the boston series went 7 games and ot was in part because holtby stood on his head. also in part because he gave up weak goals in the games they lost. look at game 1. yea, he stood on his head to get them to ot. then the boston winner was soft.

varlamov did stand on his head v the rangers in his first go around. not so much vs the penguins. vs the habs the next year, he was average at best.

my point being that a rookie goalie taking a team deep in the playoffs, much less win the cup is a rare thing. while its true that the caps 3 rookie goalies were great in the team's wins, they were not so strong in the losses.

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12-06-2012, 08:24 AM
  #244
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Originally Posted by nmbr_24 View Post
Holtby was the reason they even got out of the first round, they were outplayed by a Boston team that was struggling to get their game going. Having Holtby in net won that series, I can't believe that you actually think that having Holtby in net is a valid excuse why they lost a playoff series.
straight forward. this goal is awful


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12-06-2012, 08:31 AM
  #245
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
thats right. last season. rookie goalie(that beat the vezina goalie). previous season....rookie goalie. season before that....rookie goalie(still a rookie)....season before that....rookie goalie(that was so much a rookie that he was still a rookie the next season).

how often has a team won a cup with a rookie goalie since the capitals have been in the nhl? 1? 2?
Just because I love the Habs I will mention Dryden and that abominable traitor Roy... So, at least 2 goalies were rookies that led their team to Cup wins in the last 40 years...

To be fair, I think it was Washington's coaching that lost them their potential Cup wins, not the rookie goalies. I know that when we beat Washington a couple of years ago it was a combination of Halak playing out of this world and Washington's coach not being able to adjust to the style Montreal played. The Capitals have a good team, and with a slight upgrade ondefence, and a rejuvenated Ovechkin, your team will be at the top of the standings, again. I just worry about Ovechkin's mental toughness at this point. You really need him to rebound from last year and lead your team forward. Hopefully (for you, not my Habs) the new coach will be able to get the best out of him. If Oates can not get him going, it will be time to try and deal him.

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12-06-2012, 08:34 AM
  #246
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Originally Posted by nmbr_24 View Post
Nobody likes watching Marchand dive, nobody liked it when Savard used to dive.

Bruins fans don't like when a player dives and if you think that Marchand having a stupid game is equal to what Vancouver was doing every single game then I can't help you.
Marchand is too much like Claude Lemieux. They both have (had) the amazing ability to agitate and put up points, but they are (were) both dirty and disgusting players. I was happy when Lemieux left. I will be happy when Marchand either matures and becomes a better player, or he retires.

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12-06-2012, 10:53 AM
  #247
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straight forward. this goal is awful

One goal in a series that they won doesn't really mean much of anything. I saw Quick give up a crappy goal in the playoffs too, in 2011 I saw Tim Thomas have no less than 3 pretty horrible games.

Bad goals happen and Holtby was better than Thomas in that series, no doubt about it. Thomas let in a couple of weak goals.

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12-06-2012, 11:10 AM
  #248
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Originally Posted by nmbr_24 View Post
One goal in a series that they won doesn't really mean much of anything. I saw Quick give up a crappy goal in the playoffs too, in 2011 I saw Tim Thomas have no less than 3 pretty horrible games.

Bad goals happen and Holtby was better than Thomas in that series, no doubt about it. Thomas let in a couple of weak goals.
While Holtby was great in the series, people are seriously overrating him if they think he was the main reason we won. The reason we won was that we were playing incredibly defensive style of hockey, super trap one could say and add Holtby playing reliably it resulted in a win. Also Boston forwards werent very good at that series.

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12-06-2012, 12:44 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by cneely View Post
You didn't say anything negative at all. You did say that you find it a useless stat and he should be expected to lead the league. I disagree, that's all. I think he deserves more credit than that.
i said i find it a useless stat for people too trumpet in determing a players value, worth or dominance.

You took it three steps to the right.

In comparison though, would you find were he ranked in playoff scoring last year to be an indicator of his value, worth or dominance?

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12-06-2012, 12:58 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by LSnow View Post
While Holtby was great in the series, people are seriously overrating him if they think he was the main reason we won. The reason we won was that we were playing incredibly defensive style of hockey, super trap one could say and add Holtby playing reliably it resulted in a win. Also Boston forwards werent very good at that series.
I still think Holtby was the main reason the Caps won, great D was 2nd. My point still stands though, Holtby was not even close to the reason they lost in the playoffs.

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