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Marc Staal to St. Louis

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Old
12-05-2012, 07:09 PM
  #101
Mike Liut
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Originally Posted by Beacon View Post
Shattenkirk and Tarasenko for Staal, #2 in 2013 and #1 in 2014. Considering that we are competing for the Cup, I wouldn't do it for less than this.

Haha. The Blues are competing for a cup this year, why would you make them worse?

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12-05-2012, 08:16 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Mike Liut View Post
Haha. The Blues are competing for a cup this year, why would you make them worse?
Why do the Rangers, who are also competing for the Cup, have to trade Staal at all?

We aren't the ones shopping Staal. If you want him, give us something that makes us better. I don't care if you guys get worse; all I care about is the Rangers. People keep making these proposals asking for Staal, but it seems that they don't realize that we don't have to trade him.

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12-05-2012, 08:38 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
Whoa. I'm a Ranger fan as well, but that's a pretty high projection you got there for Stepan.
He just put up 51 points in his 21 year old season. Players don't peak at 21. There's no reason to believe he isn't a 60 point player and a small offensive upgrade over Backes in coming years.

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12-05-2012, 08:55 PM
  #104
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I'm sure Carolina would take Marc Staal.

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12-05-2012, 09:08 PM
  #105
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I read through this entire thread, and the common ground I came up with is:

Stepan, Staal

for

Backes, Shattenkirk

Needless to say, I think both teams would rather not do that trade.

I tried to think of a proposal that would help both teams, but I couldn't come up with one. I think these two shouldn't make any major trades.

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12-05-2012, 09:14 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
Why do the Rangers, who are also competing for the Cup, have to trade Staal at all?

We aren't the ones shopping Staal. If you want him, give us something that makes us better. I don't care if you guys get worse; all I care about is the Rangers. People keep making these proposals asking for Staal, but it seems that they don't realize that we don't have to trade him.


Neither side actually has to trade anyone. Nobody here has the power to pull of a trade between these two teams in real life.

So if you aren't willing to consider the other side, why bother having a conversation at all?

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12-05-2012, 09:17 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post


Neither side actually has to trade anyone. Nobody here has the power to pull of a trade between these two teams in real life.

So if you aren't willing to consider the other side, why bother having a conversation at all?
Uh, you do know it was a Blues fan who started this thread, right?

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12-05-2012, 09:26 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmlhockeyfan View Post
I'm sure Carolina would take Marc Staal.
Well considering the offers in that thread, it didn't look like they would.

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12-05-2012, 09:36 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Uh, you do know it was a Blues fan who started this thread, right?
Uh, yeah.

Did you know it was a Rangers fan who said he didn't care about the Blues side of the deal that I was responding to?

Blues fans in this thread have consistently advanced the conversation.

Chill out dude.

My point was not to show that threads in the Trade Rumors/Proposals board are ultimately pointless because we can't actually make these trades, but rather to point out that they aren't any fun without a back and forth dialouge between both sides.

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Old
12-05-2012, 09:52 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
Uh, yeah.

Did you know it was a Rangers fan who said he didn't care about the Blues side of the deal that I was responding to?

Blues fans in this thread have consistently advanced the conversation.

Chill out dude.

My point was not to show that threads in the Trade Rumors/Proposals board are ultimately pointless because we can't actually make these trades, but rather to point out that they aren't any fun without a back and forth dialouge between both sides.
Explain to me why I should care if the Blues get worse.


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12-05-2012, 11:38 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
Explain to me why I should care if the Blues get worse.
You shouldn't, just like I don't care if the Rangers get worse. I don't think anyone will be losing sleep because kaneone doesn't care if the Blues get worse.

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12-06-2012, 01:44 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
Explain to me why I should care if the Blues get worse.
Why should you care? So as not to be a dick.

Seriously, your one sided views will lead nowhere.

If you don't play along with the game, the game halts in its tracks (like it is currently doing), and nobody has fun. I could easily say in every thread, "Gimme more, I don't care how it affects you." And people would stop responding, the quality of posts would deteriorate, less people would visit the site, and we would all have to go elsewhere to try to find our fix of knowledgable hockey conversation.

Why should I care about making a legit proposal in first place? Nothing will happen from it. Most of us are here trying to have a good hockey conversation with knowledgable, like-minded people. I could post, "Teh Blues shud trade K. Russell 4 M. Staal, that'd rulz!" but the quality of the conversation deteriorates in a hurry. But that is the trade I'd like to see, so why shouldn't I post that? In order to facilate a conversation. So instead, we ask what the other side wants/needs, make proposals, get feedback, give feedback, listen to counterproposals, give feedback, get feedback, etc. until a conclusion is reached. Otherwise, we would all just be trying to shout over each other, like crickets chirpping on a summer's eve, all trying to out-do one another, but without even the payoff the crickets may enjoy.

You may not care, nor should you per se. However, to bastardize a phrase, "If you can't say something useful, don't say nothing at all."


Back on track: Just because Staal was the top defender on the Rangers before his concussion, and just because he would make an excellent partner for Pietrangelo doesn't mean that Staal is worth the trade value of a top teir, true #1 defenseman. While his defense is great, and his transition game above average, he still has never topped 30 points. Let's not value him like Keith, Suter, Chara, etc. I think the Brent Burns trade would be a great framework for a trade for a defenseman of Staal's caliber. I understand that the Rangers aren't interested in a quantity for quality swap at this point. Guess there isn't a deal to be made that works for both. (see how that works, I could just rolled with the Burns trade framework since I don't really care about the Rangers...

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Old
12-06-2012, 06:57 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmlhockeyfan View Post
I'm sure Carolina would take Marc Staal.
So would the Rangers.

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12-06-2012, 07:51 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by GoofSlashFoig View Post
You shouldn't, just like I don't care if the Rangers get worse. I don't think anyone will be losing sleep because kaneone doesn't care if the Blues get worse.
I'm not asking for anyone to lose sleep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
Why should you care? So as not to be a dick.

Seriously, your one sided views will lead nowhere.

If you don't play along with the game, the game halts in its tracks (like it is currently doing), and nobody has fun. I could easily say in every thread, "Gimme more, I don't care how it affects you." And people would stop responding, the quality of posts would deteriorate, less people would visit the site, and we would all have to go elsewhere to try to find our fix of knowledgable hockey conversation.

Why should I care about making a legit proposal in first place? Nothing will happen from it. Most of us are here trying to have a good hockey conversation with knowledgable, like-minded people. I could post, "Teh Blues shud trade K. Russell 4 M. Staal, that'd rulz!" but the quality of the conversation deteriorates in a hurry. But that is the trade I'd like to see, so why shouldn't I post that? In order to facilate a conversation. So instead, we ask what the other side wants/needs, make proposals, get feedback, give feedback, listen to counterproposals, give feedback, get feedback, etc. until a conclusion is reached. Otherwise, we would all just be trying to shout over each other, like crickets chirpping on a summer's eve, all trying to out-do one another, but without even the payoff the crickets may enjoy.

You may not care, nor should you per se. However, to bastardize a phrase, "If you can't say something useful, don't say nothing at all."


Back on track: Just because Staal was the top defender on the Rangers before his concussion, and just because he would make an excellent partner for Pietrangelo doesn't mean that Staal is worth the trade value of a top teir, true #1 defenseman. While his defense is great, and his transition game above average, he still has never topped 30 points. Let's not value him like Keith, Suter, Chara, etc. I think the Brent Burns trade would be a great framework for a trade for a defenseman of Staal's caliber. I understand that the Rangers aren't interested in a quantity for quality swap at this point. Guess there isn't a deal to be made that works for both. (see how that works, I could just rolled with the Burns trade framework since I don't really care about the Rangers...
The trade proposals here for Staal are just asking for the fair trade. Why should we want fair value for a player that the two teams clearly don't value the same? The offers I've been seeing don't get us any better. If you actually want Staal, you would give up what some of us want, and by doing that, you'd get worse. How is that my problem?

The proposal I saw for Staal would give us someone who isn't as good defensively, but better offensively, and a player who will be in our bottom 6. That may seem "fair," but why the hell do we want that? The only way we will give up our #1 defenseman is if you give up a lot, which clearly you don't want to do.

And clearly in your last paragraph, you're showing how we don't value him the same. How can we have a legitimate proposals when we don't have the same value for him? I mean, we couldn't even ask for Schwartz in a package?


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Old
12-06-2012, 09:34 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Vatican Roulette View Post
I read through this entire thread, and the common ground I came up with is:

Stepan, Staal

for

Backes, Shattenkirk

Needless to say, I think both teams would rather not do that trade.

I tried to think of a proposal that would help both teams, but I couldn't come up with one. I think these two shouldn't make any major trades.
No chance

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Old
12-06-2012, 10:30 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
I'm not asking for anyone to lose sleep.



The trade proposals here for Staal are just asking for the fair trade. Why should we want fair value for a player that the two teams clearly don't value the same? The offers I've been seeing don't get us any better. If you actually want Staal, you would give up what some of us want, and by doing that, you'd get worse. How is that my problem?

The proposal I saw for Staal would give us someone who isn't as good defensively, but better offensively, and a player who will be in our bottom 6. That may seem "fair," but why the hell do we want that? The only way we will give up our #1 defenseman is if you give up a lot, which clearly you don't want to do.

And clearly in your last paragraph, you're showing how we don't value him the same. How can we have a legitimate proposals when we don't have the same value for him? I mean, we couldn't even ask for Schwartz in a package?
Wow. See, was that so hard? A legit, well reasoned, explained thought process that continues the conversation.

It is a value of thread, and the OP threw out some names. If they weren't to your liking, throw out some different ones instead.

But it is obvious that you overvalue Staal because he plays for your team. While I understand that you want an overpayment, to suggest that he would return something similar to what Weber, Keith, or Chara would is absurd.

After some back and forth conversation, Schwartz was put back on the table. Why? Because Blues fans listened to Rangers fans and put him back on the table.

You seem to think the Blues should trade Backes and Pietrangelo for Staal and Rupp. That would work great for you, right?

This sentenance says everything, "If you actually want Staal, you would give up what some of us want, and by doing that, you'd get worse. How is that my problem?" You come to the table assume that the Blues MUST get worse in order for the Rangers to get better. No deals can EVER be made if you are more concerned with the otherside losing, look no further than the NHL and NHLPA. There are such things as "WIN-WIN" trades, which is what we are trying to find.

When you make closed statements like 'not enough', 'no interest in that guy', or 'I don't care about your team's needs', it ends conversations. You provide no feedback, so we have no idea what the Rangers wants and needs are. Withouth that information, we make stupid assumtions, like you might be interested in a ~40+ point 23 year old defenseman. How are we supposed to know any better if you don't contribute?

Also, I thought McDonagh was your top defender. Put up more points with a better plus/minus than Staal ever has. Staal has never topped 30 points, and he is a +7 in five NHL seasons. McDonagh put up 32 points last season, and is a +41 over two NHL seasons. How again is Staal better?

Neither Staal or McDonagh are in the same category as Chara or Weber. You want an overpayment of the level it would take to get Chara or Weber? Fine. Then say that. Don't be a jerk and shoot down questions without contributing to the conversation. You came into this thread pissed-off, despite it being a value-of thread and not a proposal thread. Chill out dude.

You say you don't want to make any deal unless it makes the Rangers better. Why can't you see the same applies for the Blues? Blues fans are trying to see how Rangers fans value Staal, and if there is a deal that could help both teams. You are only interested in shooting those ideas down without offering any of your own. Its kinda sad really.

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