It really good to see these Major Sport buildings in same area. It creates a "sports flow" over a full calendar year for same restaurants etc. NBA together just a big plus.
Really stabilizes the economy in Detroit downtown.
I've once visited Detroit and walked through the area where the new Arena is probably built. It's just na no-brainer there where is nothing at the moment. High-way crossroads etc. It just works.
As much as I love the Joe and its quirks, the Wings are due for a new facility. If they are going to build one, I just hope to god that they do it right.
With a $650 million price tag, this thing doesn't get built without some sort of municipal finance component. I personally would give them their own special taxing district and allow them to charge a premium sales tax until they recover their construction and development costs. I would not want to see guarantees of sales tax revenues or up front capital from the city or state.
Stadiums don't really do much for the economy, mostly just divert income streams from other things. Studies done by teams and leagues tend to just look at the revenue generated by the new stadium without looking if it's actually a net benefit for the region rather than the guy who owns the stadium.
And Bob is correct, as nice as Comerica and Ford Field are, they haven't really made much of a difference as far as Detroit's fortunes are concerned.
As far as revitalization goes sports stadiums also have the problem that outside the 6-7 hours that encompass the pre-game arrivals, the game and the aftermatch, they can be pretty deserted (and this includes the attached entertainment options). They certainly don't bring about the sort of urban vibrancy you'd hope for with such a major investment. That's a general problem with "commuter-based" regeneration. Livability is the first concern and Detroit has so much to do on that front.
That said, the Wings *do* probably need a new arena in the next 10-15 years or so. I'd just prefer it if private sector actors paid for it. Don't forget, once finished it would likely be a total cash cow for Ilitch.
The money Ford Field has brought to Detroit has to be much bigger than you guys are pretending. First of all anything brought in is a net gain, because it is not being played in Pontiac. So the Super Bowl and Final Four which are billion dollar events and huge advertising and marketing events for whatever city is just nothing. Now if they spent too much money and did a poor job that is on the city of Detroit again not the Ford family and people that helped bring that downtown.
I also think you guys are underselling how much the area around there has improved. The DAC has seen increased membership and there are very successful businesses that have popped up around there. Parking has increased and improved. I know people hate the idea of investing public money but it is all about how you do it. Indianapolis, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh have all used these to help struggling areas and improve the city. We also don't know how much money is being kicked in yet. As much as it would upset some of you I only know of one city that wouldn't kick the funding and because of that they get virtually nothing from the stadium as they had to give huge tax breaks a lot of other things since they wouldn't pony up. That would be the San Francisco Giants and long term for the city that is going to worse than partnering up.
And as stated before, removing the Wings from downtown and building something we know will take all the concerts, Wings games, a potential Pistons future, GLI and heck if he is angry enough what if they put an events center in next door and build this in say Troy. Boom you lost the Auto show as well. That would be a crippling blow, so it is easy to say this brings nothing and bemoan the existence of Pro Sports impact on the economy. However it brings some money no matter how you look at it and it is on the city of Detroit to get the right deal.
Last edited by The Zetterberg Era: 12-05-2012 at 01:18 PM.
The money Ford Field has brought to Detroit has to be much bigger than you guys are pretending. First of all anything brought in is a net gain, because it is not being played in Pontiac. So the Super Bowl and Final Four which a billion dollar events and huge advertising and marketing events for whatever city is just nothing. Now if they spent to much money and did a poor job that is on the city of Detroit again not the Ford family and people that helped bring that downtown.
I also think you guys are underselling how much the area around there has improved. The DAC has seen increased membership and there are very successful businesses that have popped up around there. Parking has increased and improved. I know people hate the idea of investing public money but it is all about how you do it. Indianapolis, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh have all used these to help struggling areas and improve the city. We also don't know how much money is being kicked in yet. As much as it would upset some of you I only know of one city that wouldn't kick the funding and because of that they get virtually nothing from the stadium as they had to give huge tax breaks a lot of other things since they wouldn't pony up. That would be the San Francisco Giants and long term for the city that is going to worse than partnering up.
And as stated before, removing the Wings from downtown and building something we know will take all the concerts, Wings games, a potential Pistons future, GLI and heck if he is angry enough what if they put an events center in next door and build this in say Troy. Boom you lost the Auto show as well. That would be a crippling blow, so it is easy to say this brings nothing and bemoan the existence of Pro Sports impact on the economy. However it brings some money no matter how you look at it and it is on the city of Detroit to get the right deal.
First of all, I'm not talking about it being in the city vs not being in the city.
I've yet to hear a serious proposal to move the Wings from Detroit.
Second of all... you keep saying "we fail to understand" all this BS about money.
Just because you think stadiums mean all kinds of money doesn't mean its true.
Read about it. It's debatable.
There's only so much disposable income to go around and stadiums suck that up. It can be argued that tickets to wings game takes money out of the local restaurant downtown in your little hamlet.
First of all, I'm not talking about it being in the city vs not being in the city.
I've yet to hear a serious proposal to move the Wings from Detroit.
Second of all... you keep saying "we fail to understand" all this BS about money.
Just because you think stadiums mean all kinds of money doesn't mean its true.
Read about it. It's debatable.
There's only so much disposable income to go around and stadiums suck that up. It can be argued that tickets to wings game takes money out of the local restaurant downtown in your little hamlet.
So it might be the other way. Fine I will grant your angle of thinking that it might not make money, if you will allow for the fact if done correctly there is also a lot to gain from a stadium. It is in execution.
Also just because you don't think Ilitch would ever leave the downtown area is a funny way to look at it. Sure he helps the downtown whenever possible but it is interesting you think that should be used against him. Also the fact the Ilitch family very likely is about to see a change in who is in charge of these decisions soon. His children didn't grow up in Detroit and don't have the same attachment. They didn't go to Cooley High and while they might have a lot of land in Detroit if they were to publically shop this it might turn out different. Ilitch was close to moving the Tigers out of downtown looking at sites in the Northville/Novi area because funds were slow. You might not believe him and I would have a hard time seeing him using it as anything but leverage. But I don't know what Denise Ilitch thinks or if she cares all that much, she might just take the best deal and walk away.
Like I said a city like Troy which lost K-Mart and has space and good access for this along with tons of lodging, malls, restaurants should do everything in their power to land this. Auburn Hills and Rochester Hills should be very interested in keeping the Pistons in town. Northville and Novi should be interested as well. There is a benefit in my opinion if done correctly and there should be interest. You argue it is debatable fine, I see what you are saying when people do this wrong or when a team is already there what is to gain. I just think there are things to gain and the Wings are going to get a new building soon one way or another, if Detroit doesn't see the gain fine, but don't come crying if they wind up somewhere else in the area either.
So it might be the other way. Fine I will grant your angle of thinking that it might not make money, if you will allow for the fact if done correctly there is also a lot to gain from a stadium. It is in execution.
Also just because you don't think Ilitch would ever leave the downtown area is a funny way to look at it. Sure he helps the downtown whenever possible but it is interesting you think that should be used against him. Also the fact the Ilitch family very likely is about to see a change in who is in charge of these decisions soon. His children didn't grow up in Detroit and don't have the same attachment. They didn't go to Cooley High and while they might have a lot of land in Detroit if they were to publically shop this it might turn out different. Ilitch was close to moving the Tigers out of downtown looking at sites in the Northville/Novi area because funds were slow. You might not believe him and I would have a hard time seeing him using it as anything but leverage. But I don't know what Denise Ilitch thinks or if she cares all that much, she might just take the best deal and walk away.
Like I said a city like Troy which lost K-Mart and has space and good access for this along with tons of lodging, malls, restaurants should do everything in their power to land this. Auburn Hills and Rochester Hills should be very interested in keeping the Pistons in town. Northville and Novi should be interested as well. There is a benefit in my opinion if done correctly and there should be interest. You argue it is debatable fine, I see what you are saying when people do this wrong or when a team is already there what is to gain. I just think there are things to gain and the Wings are going to get a new building soon one way or another, if Detroit doesn't see the gain fine, but don't come crying if they wind up somewhere else in the area either.
Ilitch has a plan to build in a way to complement his other properties.
I don't see why state taxpayers and the city of detroit need to pony up to help Mike Ilitch at a time when schools and cities are undergoing massive cuts -- and while the state is threatening to eliminate even more funding (personal property tax).
I see no good reason to subsidize the pro sports industry. Not in good times. Definitely not in hard times
Well if it works out we know he will claim it, see the Auto bailout which actually started under former President George W. Bush.
In all seriousness given just how tough that job is, it has not been lost on me that he has spoke out about the NHL lockout. Sure the football and basketball (especially for him, we know what a big fan he is of that sport) lockouts were talked about, but Obama hasn't just let this pass without expressing an opinion on it. I might not always agree with all of his positions, but I like that he actually weighed in.
Quote:
"Every time these things happen, I just want to remind the owners and the players: You guys make money because you've got a whole bunch of fans out there who are working really hard," Obama said.
"They buy tickets, they're watching on TV … y'all should be able to figure it out. Get this done"
He also did this in the very heart of his campaign push. It was answering a question on Leno from a fan, but don't think he doesn't have approval on a lot of what is asked.
That's not really that indicative of anything, it basically just means the DDA gets 12 million $ to help in the development. If that remains the only financial commitment on part of the taxpayer even I'd be happy enough to go along with it.
Well if it works out we know he will claim it, see the Auto bailout which actually started under former President George W. Bush.
In all seriousness given just how tough that job is, it has not been lost on me that he has spoke out about the NHL lockout. Sure the football and basketball (especially for him, we know what a big fan he is of that sport) lockouts were talked about, but Obama hasn't just let this pass without expressing an opinion on it. I might not always agree with all of his positions, but I like that he actually weighed in.
He also did this in the very heart of his campaign push. It was answering a question on Leno from a fan, but don't think he doesn't have approval on a lot of what is asked.
Pistons will be renting and Wings (Ilitch) will own the building. Good way to make extra money. I would prefer those awful Pistons stay away from the Wings, but sadly money is money.
The only thing I care about is whether or not having basketball games so often will effect the Wings schedule and ice quality. Other than that, I don't see anything wrong with it. I'm sure it will be designed as hockey barn first, since it's the Ilitch family funding it.
Old school falls apart. New school attracts new money.
My old high school was built in 1917 or something...
Yes, it requires more maintenance. Upgrades are expensive.
But it's a beautiful building. And it's the kind of building that attracts students.
History attracts money. I used to go to Tiger Stadium because it was Tiger Stadium. I've been to Comerica Park once.
Now, at 30 years old, the Joe isn't historic. It's just old. And it's never been a "beautiful" building. But really, neither was Tiger Stadium.
Going back to my high school and doing elementary school math....what if you let the Joe age, but with renovations, over the next 30 years...by the time it's 50, it's an historic building.
How much do those renovations cost you over time?
How much money are you losing by not building new?
Conversely, how much are you saving by spending $650,000 million + financing?
How many years does it take to pay that off?
With today's life expectancy, will it still be in operation when finished??
One quick question: is there anything to indicate the Pistons will play in the new arena? I keep reading mixed use and events and that leads me to believe there will be retail businesses, dining/bar options, and concerts. I haven't seen anything yet that clearly states the Pistons would move from Auburn Hills to play in the new arena. If anyone has anything concrete as far as articles that suggest this as a possibility I'd be interested in having you post them in the thread.
Nothing against the Pistons and I'm sure Mr. I would like to have them back in Detroit to draw even more people and money into the city. Like most hockey fans I selfishly want us to continue to have a great ice surface and most arenas that house both hockey and basketball teams seem to have very poor ice. So I'm kind of hoping people are assuming the Pistons will be a tenant due to Ilitch making an offer to buy the team but that they will instead stay out in Auburn Hills since they have a nice arena and are not owned by Ilitch.
The Joe is probably past the point of fixing up, it would take serious renovations. I love the old seat set up how youre so steep over the ice and hope it stays like that but the walkways and concession area are absolute garbage. You can barely walk in there.
One quick question: is there anything to indicate the Pistons will play in the new arena? I keep reading mixed use and events and that leads me to believe there will be retail businesses, dining/bar options, and concerts. I haven't seen anything yet that clearly states the Pistons would move from Auburn Hills to play in the new arena. If anyone has anything concrete as far as articles that suggest this as a possibility I'd be interested in having you post them in the thread.
Nothing against the Pistons and I'm sure Mr. I would like to have them back in Detroit to draw even more people and money into the city. Like most hockey fans I selfishly want us to continue to have a great ice surface and most arenas that house both hockey and basketball teams seem to have very poor ice. So I'm kind of hoping people are assuming the Pistons will be a tenant due to Ilitch making an offer to buy the team but that they will instead stay out in Auburn Hills since they have a nice arena and are not owned by Ilitch.
Thanks in advance.
The Pistons will have that option, but it is more like the capability. They can have U of M, MSU and tourney games. There is also the realistic capability that the University of Detroit or Wayne State uses it. Especially the first one if they play their cards right could turn back into a decent brand.
As far as concert venues I have the feeling it will jump ahead of the Palace. The people in Auburn Hills have to be worried. I don't know that they will really move, but that threat now is there in a big way.
On a different note since this is being set up from the beginning I would want one thing. I want them to set up the arena with the capability to play on international ice too. At least an idea of how they would do it.
Also with two close to 20,000 seat areans sitting here the next WJC in the USA should be held in Detroit. I know because of the GLI (which is great) that is an interesting situation and I don't know the plans for Joe Louis but if they can figure out how to bring that to town while both are still up and running that would be really cool. But I think it would be cool if they had the World Juniors for a year. Also they could maybe give Grand Rapids a little love and play the GLI up there for that year.
Wouldnt be bad to have Detroit host the world juniors, especially with Canada being so close and Buffalo being successful in large part due to the proximity to the border.
Joe Louis and this new arena could be the focus of arenas for the tourney. How much does the wolverines rink seat? I know that just got some nice renos done as well
