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Lockout II - Moderated: Talk about your plenty, Talk about your ills...

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Old
12-06-2012, 07:21 AM
  #876
EHCler
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Biggest move foreward ist cutting the difference in the "make Whole". Just agree on the freaking $ 300 Mio. and both sides can sell this as a fair compromise. Nice try by the owners by adding the 50 Mio. pensions.

Now its time for Union to make a new offer on this part. As from now on both sides are loosing money if season is cancelled this is a loose loose situation. Shame it needed to come down to this, but getting it right this time even by maing sacrifices hopefully insure these things will not happen again.

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12-06-2012, 07:23 AM
  #877
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If the owners would be all on the same page this would not be an issue. They would make a gentleman agreement with each other that they would not offer longer contracts and the issue is solved.

Lets see who would be the first one to break it and how other owners react. They just do not trust each other or are on the same page.
And once that happened the PA would take the owners to court for collusion and win the way they did in baseball when the owners tried to illegally collude to dry up free agency. You have to have it in writing.

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12-06-2012, 07:27 AM
  #878
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No problem with Christmas games. It's part of sports. Major sports in America do it. For athletes, being away from your families is part of the gig. They don't take off for Easter, which the Catholic Church will tell you is more important.
I don't have an issue with watching it (although I personally wouldn't want to attend a Christmas game as a fan either) but in a CBA where the players are already conceding on almost every front it's going to be a near-impossible sell.

You could just do it as a one-year trial...have a Hockey Night in America and Canada tripleheader at 3-7 and 10:30, six games in total. If the ratings don't spike then don't do it again after this year.

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12-06-2012, 07:39 AM
  #879
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Originally Posted by NJDevs26 View Post
I don't have an issue with watching it (although I personally wouldn't want to attend a Christmas game as a fan either) but in a CBA where the players are already conceding on almost every front it's going to be a near-impossible sell.

You could just do it as a one-year trial...have a Hockey Night in America and Canada tripleheader at 3-7 and 10:30, six games in total. If the ratings don't spike then don't do it again after this year.
Preface it with a showing of D2 on CBC. All day hockey stuff.

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12-06-2012, 07:42 AM
  #880
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Apologies if already posted.. TSN believes the league proposal breaks down like this.

1) 10 year CBA

2) UFA and Arbitration to remain status quo from previous CBA

3) Contract limits at 5 years but teams can resign their own players to 7 year terms

4) Make Whole increased to 300M which is half way between previous offer and PA request.

No word on HRR split.

No word on PA proposal.

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12-06-2012, 07:56 AM
  #881
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1) 10 year CBA
2) UFA and Arbitration to remain status quo from previous CBA
3) Contract limits at 5 years but teams can resign their own players to 7 year terms
4) Make Whole increased to 300M which is half way between previous offer and PA request.
I assume the HRR split is 50/50 + Make Whole.

Surely to God, the players can now see that the October offer by the league really did contain the owners' "line in the sand": 50/50 and contract term limits. The league simply isn't going to sign a deal that doesn't contain those items, and the players are going to have to decide now if they can live with that, or if they want to press the big red button labeled "Decertification" and blow the whole thing up.

The PA has been playing this "wait for the owners' best offer, it will come, it will come," game since this whole mess started, and so here they are in December looking at essentially the same deal they could have signed in October, minus a cool half-billion in salary. Brilliant strategy, guys. Looks like it worked out just great for ya

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12-06-2012, 08:11 AM
  #882
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
The PA has been playing this "wait for the owners' best offer, it will come, it will come," game since this whole mess started, and so here they are in December looking at essentially the same deal they could have signed in October, minus a cool half-billion in salary. Brilliant strategy, guys. Looks like it worked out just great for ya
That's why I'm worried this could still fall apart...there's little more incentive for the players to sign this deal than there was in October and Don hasn't gone in the room yet. Where's the cherry on top to give the players something to 'win'? They got status quo in FA and arbitration, whoopdie doo.

Increasing make whole is another red herring like the 50-50 was. Make whole isn't paying full value of the contracts and 50-50 is still a decrease for the players. A neccesary decrease but still a decrease. Contract limits are a HUGE step back for the players. Yeah NBA players can make $100 million on 5-year contracts but that just isn't possible in the NHL with the hard cap, no 'Bird rights' that encourage overpaying and the general economics of the sport. The biggest contract goes from the monstrosities signed this offseason to at best a flat 7-70 deal and only for Crosby-type players.

I honestly still think the players are just looking for something, anything to hang their hat on as an improvement in order to justify all the givebacks and the owners aren't offering that. I don't know what the cherry on top is, but you can't reasonably expect the players to give, give, give and like it just because they're not giving (or getting) in a few smaller areas or because they 'have no choice'. They have a choice till the eleventh hour of the drop-dead date.


Last edited by NJDevs26: 12-06-2012 at 08:17 AM.
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12-06-2012, 08:16 AM
  #883
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That's why I'm worried this could still fall apart...there's little more incentive for the players to sign this deal than there was in October and Don hasn't gone in the room yet. Where's the cherry on top to give the players something to 'win'? They got status quo in FA and arbitration, whoopdie doo.

Increasing make whole is another red herring like the 50-50 was. Make whole isn't paying full value of the contracts and 50-50 is still a decrease for the players. A neccesary decrease but still a decrease. Contract limits are a HUGE step back for the players. Yeah NBA players can make $100 million on 5-year contracts but that just isn't possible in the NHL with the hard cap, no 'Bird rights' that encourage overpaying and the general economics of the sport. The biggest contract goes from the monstrosities signed this offseason to at best a flat 7-70 deal and only for Crosby-type players.

I honestly still think the players are just looking for something, anything to hang their hat on as an improvement in order to justify all the givebacks and the owners aren't offering that. I don't know what the cherry on top is, but you can't reasonably expect the players to give, give, give and like it just because they're not giving in a few smaller areas.
Contract limits only affect a few all-star players as most players sign contracts that are shorter than three years...

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12-06-2012, 08:23 AM
  #884
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Contract limits only affect a few all-star players as most players sign contracts that are shorter than three years...
Most players weren't signing longer contracts anyway before GM's started figuring backdoor ways around the cap and used longer deals as the wedge to get through the backdoor. Take away variance/backdiving deals and limit signing bonuses and you don't have the need for contract limits. Contract limits are just a way of running up the score and saving the owners insurance money.

Again, where's the incentive for the players to agree to it other than 'they have to'? Just because it only affects 5%-10% whatever it doesn't mean it's not a giveback. By that standard, the players shouldn't care if they get 30% of HRR in year 5 of the CBA since only 5-10% of the players are going to be around for it anyway.

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12-06-2012, 08:52 AM
  #885
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I doubt the PA will want to get rid of bonuses so that isn't going to give them their win. If the players are still in the mindset of we need something back then we aren't going anywhere with that. Nor should the league because that is a childish mentality.

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12-06-2012, 08:57 AM
  #886
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Just wondering, how much of this 'make whole' is sitting out there in dead contracts? Pronger, Savard, Redden, etc. Players and/or teams who have players who have no intention on playing another NHL game?

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12-06-2012, 09:02 AM
  #887
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The classic - good cop, bad cop routine

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12-06-2012, 09:03 AM
  #888
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Don't tell Brian Lawton that Jacobs is killing the mood. He's the one saying that it's Jacobs and not Burkle who is supposedly the catalyst. Eklund too. So, you know some of what's actually happening.

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12-06-2012, 09:09 AM
  #889
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Just wondering, how much of this 'make whole' is sitting out there in dead contracts? Pronger, Savard, Redden, etc. Players and/or teams who have players who have no intention on playing another NHL game?
Redden will be back in the NHL. Why pay a cap hit of $6.5m and then have to pay for his replacement as well.

As for the rest, they are getting paid so it's only fair they get their share.

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12-06-2012, 09:11 AM
  #890
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Again, where's the incentive for the players to agree to it other than 'they have to'? Just because it only affects 5%-10% whatever it doesn't mean it's not a giveback.
Well.. this time around, there just may not be a 'big cherry on top'. The owners learned from the last CBA that they just can't leave the kinds of loopholes that they left last time, or they'll get used & abused. It sounds like the owners did agree to a number of smaller NHLPA demands in earlier sessions; those may be the 'wins' that the PA will have to take from this, or that the owners have walked back their other demands on arbitration, ELC, and even UFA, and are willing to stick with status quo on those.

If the players really want open the mystery door named 'decertification' it's certainly their right, but they had better fully understand that nobody knows for sure what is behind that door, other than the certainty that this season, and all their salaries, will vanish when they open it.

I think that's all that's left for the players now. I think that was all that was left in October. They have squeezed as much from the owners in this process as they are going to get, so either take the deal or blow the whole thing up. Sometimes an honorable loss is just the best you can do. That's life.

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12-06-2012, 09:11 AM
  #891
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Redden will be back in the NHL. Why pay a cap hit of $6.5m and then have to pay for his replacement as well.

As for the rest, they are getting paid so it's only fair they get their share.
That's assuming there will be amnesty, which there probably will, but there isn't yet.


Everyone starting to say about how close this was to blowing up, and it's going to happen every day until there's a deal. Chalk that up to the league trying to make the players look like heroes.

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12-06-2012, 09:14 AM
  #892
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
Well.. this time around, there just may not be a 'big cherry on top'. The owners learned from the last CBA that they just can't leave the kinds of loopholes that they left last time, or they'll get used & abused. It sounds like the owners did agree to a number of smaller NHLPA demands in earlier sessions; those may be the 'wins' that the PA will have to take from this, or that the owners have walked back their other demands on arbitration, ELC, and even UFA, and are willing to stick with status quo on those.

If the players really want open the mystery door named 'decertification' it's certainly their right, but they had better fully understand that nobody knows for sure what is behind that door, other than the certainty that this season, and all their salaries, will vanish when they open it.

I think that's all that's left for the players now. I think that was all that was left in October. They have squeezed as much from the owners in this process as they are going to get, so either take the deal or blow the whole thing up. Sometimes an honorable loss is just the best you can do. That's life.
I agree with what you and others have said about the owners best offer-it is looking right now like a tactical mistake by the players to "wait until the owners best offer", when it is seeming that offer was in Oct. The owners have said time and again what the main areas they won't move on are since Oct, and they've held to it.

I don't know how much more tweaking the owners will do-probably not much at all-this probably is effectively their "take it or there's the door to decert and we'll see where that goes" offer IMO.

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12-06-2012, 09:15 AM
  #893
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Originally Posted by JMT21 View Post
Apologies if already posted.. TSN believes the league proposal breaks down like this.

1) 10 year CBA

2) UFA and Arbitration to remain status quo from previous CBA

3) Contract limits at 5 years but teams can resign their own players to 7 year terms

4) Make Whole increased to 300M which is half way between previous offer and PA request.

No word on HRR split.

No word on PA proposal.
With that 10-year CBA, the owners better hope that they aren't screwing themselves over with this CBA agreement like they did with the last one, because they'll have a longer time to wait in order to try to fix it.

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12-06-2012, 09:26 AM
  #894
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How much sponsorship money do they stand to lose? If it's like $20m, then not much point in rushing back. It's also a way to give the sponsors a break. Call it a good faith peace offering.

I really think the players should concede on the contract term limits. I like the idea that current teams get to offer their FA's an additional 2 years (something I suggested a while ago). Gets a little murky though when you consider trades. A team shouldn't be able to sign a player for 7 years and then immediately turn around and trade him. Perhaps in this situation a player must stay with the signing team for the first two seasons.

I can see why it would be a sticking point though. It's a hard earned right that the players are giving up, but it's something that every team in the league is going to be pretty united on. Way too much risk with these long term contracts.
100% if 61 games then it drops to 75%

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12-06-2012, 09:28 AM
  #895
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Well.. this time around, there just may not be a 'big cherry on top'. The owners learned from the last CBA that they just can't leave the kinds of loopholes that they left last time, or they'll get used & abused. It sounds like the owners did agree to a number of smaller NHLPA demands in earlier sessions; those may be the 'wins' that the PA will have to take from this, or that the owners have walked back their other demands on arbitration, ELC, and even UFA, and are willing to stick with status quo on those.

If the players really want open the mystery door named 'decertification' it's certainly their right, but they had better fully understand that nobody knows for sure what is behind that door, other than the certainty that this season, and all their salaries, will vanish when they open it.

I think that's all that's left for the players now. I think that was all that was left in October. They have squeezed as much from the owners in this process as they are going to get, so either take the deal or blow the whole thing up. Sometimes an honorable loss is just the best you can do. That's life.
What I don't understand is that the owners also should know once decertification is on the table then it's out of their hands too as to what happens next. They should also know a Fehr led PA isn't going to be 'broken'. They should want to give enough to get a deal too, the onus can't be entirely on the PA. They know once contract limits are in place they're never coming out, just like the cap.

Are the owners really prepared to kill the season over something that isn't going to change HRR?

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12-06-2012, 09:28 AM
  #896
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With that 10-year CBA, the owners better hope that they aren't screwing themselves over with this CBA agreement like they did with the last one, because they'll have a longer time to wait in order to try to fix it.
That's a good point. A longer CBA means a longer time for the economic environment to drift, and for one side or the other to start suffering. Thus a bigger adjustment needed, and more entrenched opponents at the negotiating table in 2022.

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12-06-2012, 09:32 AM
  #897
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I assume the HRR split is 50/50 + Make Whole.

Surely to God, the players can now see that the October offer by the league really did contain the owners' "line in the sand": 50/50 and contract term limits. The league simply isn't going to sign a deal that doesn't contain those items, and the players are going to have to decide now if they can live with that, or if they want to press the big red button labeled "Decertification" and blow the whole thing up.

The PA has been playing this "wait for the owners' best offer, it will come, it will come," game since this whole mess started, and so here they are in December looking at essentially the same deal they could have signed in October, minus a cool half-billion in salary. Brilliant strategy, guys. Looks like it worked out just great for ya
The 50/50 and term limits were obvious in August. This deal is not "essentially the same as the one in October." The owners offers have gotten better for the players in every round. They won't get better in the revenue split, but I'd be extremely surprised if contract limits are 5 years in the deal. There will be limits, but it will be 6-8 years instead.

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12-06-2012, 09:41 AM
  #898
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If what Shannon reported is true, I don't see how the leagues proposal is unfair to players.

10 year CBA
$300M make whole
Unchanged UFA and arbitration rules
5% contract variance
5 year contract length (7 for own players)

If the players manage to screw this one up, they deserve what they have coming.

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12-06-2012, 09:41 AM
  #899
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Appears that Bettman and Fehr will be joining the party today. Glad I didn't get my hopes up.

With these two egos in the room, this thing is doomed to fail

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12-06-2012, 09:45 AM
  #900
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Appears that Bettman and Fehr will be joining the party today. Glad I didn't get my hopes up.

With these two egos in the room, this thing is doomed to fail
They're looking to protect their jobs and reputations. If this all gets resolved with the appearance of not needing them or being better off without them, then... well you know.

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