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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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12-05-2012, 05:50 PM
  #301
Xokkeu
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Originally Posted by Macman View Post
There's a huge difference between choosing not to bring your best and not being able or allowed to bring your best. That's the difference between the Canada Cup and every other tournament played to that point. It gave all of hockey's top countries the opportunity to bring their absolute best for the first time. If some didn't once or twice, that's their problem.
Both Canada and the US usually have enough players to field extremely competitive teams in the World Championships. However, we both seem to have players who don't care enough and that's our problems.

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12-05-2012, 05:55 PM
  #302
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I am more afraid of the Americans than the Russians. Mostly due to better defense/goaltending.

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12-05-2012, 05:59 PM
  #303
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To say that "World Championships" isn't best on best is the same as saying "European Championships" in soccer isn't best on best because Brazil and Argentina isn't participating.

Every nations comes with the best players they have at the time the tournament is. Everyone who are not available are not there for some reason. Playoffs, injured, said no(and that is that nations problem, address it and they won't say no).

True, the Stanley Cup has helped leveling the field, but it isn't always the best players who are left in that tournament either. Pittsburgh might get knocked out early, Washington early, Detroit early and so on...


If Brazil and/or several other teams in soccer have 7 guys out with injuries or suspensions in the FIFA World Cup, it's still a best on best tournament. Nations play with their best players available at the time. Stop cherry-picking for it to suit a purpose.
That is a terrible analogy. If FIFA held the World Cup in May and most of the best players were not playing it would not be considered a best vs best tournament.

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12-06-2012, 03:36 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
The Olympics is a global event, so that obviously was priority #1 for the Soviets.

The Canada Cup was an unknown/obscure tournament outside of the hockey community and fans.


"All our thoughts are directed toward the Olympics. We use the Canada Cup as a good school." - Slava Fetisov.
Agree. Canada cup/world cup is/was an obscure invitational tournament created by and for Canadians.
Ofcourse, becaus of their emense arroganse, there's some level of satisfaction in defeating the Canadians at their own terms; their home ice, their rules.
But that's where it ends. Saying it's on par with the Olympics is just proof of their bloated egos.
Hardly anyone outside of Canada even cares or knows what it is.

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12-06-2012, 03:50 AM
  #305
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I agree with you to a degree. It was propaganda but so was Fetisov's comment. Winning the Olympics meant more to the Soviet masters, but I'll never believe that pounding inferior competition at the Olympics meant anywhere near as much to guys like Fetisov as pounding Canada's best did in '81. Let's put it this way, I never saw the Big Red Machine celebrate after a world or Olympic gold like they did in Montreal.
the Big Red Machine never really existed except maybe for 3 years from 1979-81... but beyond those 3 years it was always more like the Big Red Hype.. They exploited the rules to their advantage and good for them...they were the best so called "armatures" on the planet..but when it came to playing the best of the best, they were never the Big Red Machine except for that brief 3 year window... That debate has been long since settled.

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12-06-2012, 04:42 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
the Big Red Machine never really existed except maybe for 3 years from 1979-81... but beyond those 3 years it was always more like the Big Red Hype.. They exploited the rules to their advantage and good for them...they were the best so called "armatures" on the planet..but when it came to playing the best of the best, they were never the Big Red Machine except for that brief 3 year window... That debate has been long since settled.
Hype? Perhaps in your own alternative feel-good universe. They were extremely dominant for much longer than that but perhaps you weren't born at the time or didn't much witness them playing for some other reason. Look at Canada Cup 1987 for example where they really gave Canada a run for the money despite the ref "standards" and a hostile home crowd.

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12-06-2012, 04:49 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by RorschachWJK View Post
Hype? Perhaps in your own alternative feel-good universe. They were extremely dominant for much longer than that but perhaps you weren't born at the time or didn't much witness them playing for some other reason. Look at Canada Cup 1987 for example where they really gave Canada a run for the money despite the ref "standards" and a hostile home crowd.
in the end they lost thats all that matters

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12-06-2012, 04:50 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Slimmy View Post
Agree. Canada cup/world cup is/was an obscure invitational tournament created by and for Canadians.
Ofcourse, becaus of their emense arroganse, there's some level of satisfaction in defeating the Canadians at their own terms; their home ice, their rules.
But that's where it ends. Saying it's on par with the Olympics is just proof of their bloated egos.
Hardly anyone outside of Canada even cares or knows what it is.
So why did/do most if not every country who participate(d) in it send their "A" team? Seems like they cared about it.

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12-06-2012, 05:07 AM
  #309
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To sum up:

WJC's don't count because it's kids, are limited to two or three year's worth of players, or only the last two years are relevent. At best it shows that Canada has depth but c'mon, how many people play hockey in Canada.

Canada Cup/ World Cup despite being best-on-best is irrelevent because maybe one or two people outside of Canada even knows what the event is, "evil" Canada fixes the tourney, or was played on that wacky NHL-size ice surface that the majority of players play on professionally.

Olympics were a fluke because Canada lost some meaningless round robin games or won on a flukey OT goal and only won in North America.

WHC's are relevent despite the fact that a sigificant number of Canada "A" players cannot play or "if they are so deep it should not matter who plays for Canada" or it is semantically "best-on-best" because it's the best of the players who can play in the event.

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12-06-2012, 05:15 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
in the end they lost thats all that matters
What really matters is that it was great hockey entertainment, perhaps some of the best ever, despite the clear flaws in the tournament itself. This is what all of it boils down to: entertainment.

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12-06-2012, 05:28 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
So why did/do most if not every country who participate(d) in it send their "A" team? Seems like they cared about it.
Becaus they were available. And becaus they live(ed) in NA. What would be the point in sending an inferior team if all the NHL'ers wanted to play? It was practically an NHL all-star tourney with teams divided by nationality. Atleast the WC. Good competition.
Doesn't mean it's highly regarded in each respective country.

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12-06-2012, 06:46 AM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Slimmy View Post
Becaus they were available. And becaus they live(ed) in NA. What would be the point in sending an inferior team if all the NHL'ers wanted to play? It was practically an NHL all-star tourney with teams divided by nationality. Atleast the WC. Good competition.
Doesn't mean it's highly regarded in each respective country.
What? 1987 Canada Cup alone outshines anything that has happened in the WHC's.

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12-06-2012, 07:00 AM
  #313
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
What? 1987 Canada Cup alone outshines anything that has happened in the WHC's.
WC as in World Cup. Or did I misinterpret your post?

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12-06-2012, 07:57 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Slimmy View Post
Becaus they were available. And becaus they live(ed) in NA. What would be the point in sending an inferior team if all the NHL'ers wanted to play? It was practically an NHL all-star tourney with teams divided by nationality. Atleast the WC. Good competition.
Doesn't mean it's highly regarded in each respective country.
I think you are confusing two points here. I don't think anyone should have to justify or defend what they like. As a fan if you like the World Championships then great, if you like the Canada / World Cup then good on 'ya. The difference in terms of this discussion is which tournaments were a better indicator of national hockey ability. Since the C/WCup had a much higher percentage of each countries top players attend I would argue they are a much better measuring stick. I don't see how the tournaments are regarded after the fact means anything.

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12-06-2012, 08:32 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I think you are confusing two points here. I don't think anyone should have to justify or defend what they like. As a fan if you like the World Championships then great, if you like the Canada / World Cup then good on 'ya. The difference in terms of this discussion is which tournaments were a better indicator of national hockey ability. Since the C/WCup had a much higher percentage of each countries top players attend I would argue they are a much better measuring stick. I don't see how the tournaments are regarded after the fact means anything.
What I am saying is Canada Cup and World Cup are/were invitationals where NA (NHL) set the agenda, with their rules and on their terms. If the NHL don't give two ***** about actually sanctioned international tournaments like the WHC, is the rest of the world supposed to stop turning? Tough luck the NHL give the domestic hockey federations the finger when the yearly legit tournament, deciding who is the world champion of hockey, is played.

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12-06-2012, 08:48 AM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Slimmy View Post
What I am saying is Canada Cup and World Cup are/were invitationals where NA (NHL) set the agenda, with their rules and on their terms. If the NHL don't give two ***** about actually sanctioned international tournaments like the WHC, is the rest of the world supposed to stop turning? Tough luck the NHL give the domestic hockey federations the finger when the yearly legit tournament, deciding who is the world champion of hockey, is played.
Name me another major sport that has an annual world championship? Football, basketball, rugby, track and field, cricket? It's not feasible. Maybe if the WHC were every four years you could get up on your pedestal and complain about a lack of accommodation.

Name me another sport where one league dominates all others in attracting the top talent and does not have a lot of influence over the Intl governing body.

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12-06-2012, 09:27 AM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Slimmy View Post
What I am saying is Canada Cup and World Cup are/were invitationals where NA (NHL) set the agenda, with their rules and on their terms. If the NHL don't give two ***** about actually sanctioned international tournaments like the WHC, is the rest of the world supposed to stop turning? Tough luck the NHL give the domestic hockey federations the finger when the yearly legit tournament, deciding who is the world champion of hockey, is played.
There is a history here that you obviously are not aware of. For decades the IIHF did everything in its power to keep NHLers out of their tournaments and for a time out right banned them from playing. In fact it wasn't until Europe's top players began to play in the NHL that the IIHF slowly started to change. You must understand that although roughly 70% or more of the world's hockey players have always been from North America because Europe is made up of many smaller countries the IIHF by the nature of its set up has always been dominated by Europeans. As such the IIHF has had a bias in favour of Europeans from day 1. The way the IIHF has conducted itself over the years is one of the reasons why the World Championships have so little respect in NA.

I realize that because Europe has more countries that most Europeans feel it is their right to control international bodies like the IIHF, but I'm sorry I just don't see it that way. You may think the World Championships are "legit", but most North Americans would disagree. We just put value in and like different things, nothing wrong with that.

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12-06-2012, 10:05 AM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
There is a history here that you obviously are not aware of. For decades the IIHF did everything in its power to keep NHLers out of their tournaments and for a time out right banned them from playing. In fact it wasn't until Europe's top players began to play in the NHL that the IIHF slowly started to change. You must understand that although roughly 70% or more of the world's hockey players have always been from North America because Europe is made up of many smaller countries the IIHF by the nature of its set up has always been dominated by Europeans. As such the IIHF has had a bias in favour of Europeans from day 1. The way the IIHF has conducted itself over the years is one of the reasons why the World Championships have so little respect in NA.

I realize that because Europe has more countries that most Europeans feel it is their right to control international bodies like the IIHF, but I'm sorry I just don't see it that way. You may think the World Championships are "legit", but most North Americans would disagree. We just put value in and like different things, nothing wrong with that.
Absolutely Agree. I've been to a few World Championships in Europe, 3 actually. The hockey was crap, but drinking and partying with the Latvians was a blast.

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12-06-2012, 10:36 AM
  #319
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The IIHF should move it to September if they want it to stop being a B level tournament.

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12-06-2012, 10:37 AM
  #320
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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
The IIHF should move it to September if they want it to stop being a B level tournament.
It's more like A-.

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12-06-2012, 11:38 AM
  #321
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
Name me another major sport that has an annual world championship? Football, basketball, rugby, track and field, cricket? It's not feasible. Maybe if the WHC were every four years you could get up on your pedestal and complain about a lack of accommodation.

Name me another sport where one league dominates all others in attracting the top talent and does not have a lot of influence over the Intl governing body.
In soccer, inbetween major tourneys like the WC and the EC, for us here in Europe (in North and South America
there's Copa America), there are qualifications being played. In other words, there are games played yearly,
eather qualification games or the actual tournament games.
I do agree, however, that there is much healthier competition between leagues in soccer, where as the NHL can pretty
much do as it want's. Hoping that will change with the KHL and possibly another european league, but that is another matter.

NHL would give the finger to the Olympic games as well if it weren't for popular demand domestically.
Now, I don't blame the NHL for wanting to make money, that's why the league exists, but putting the blame solely on the IIHF
dismissing it as anti-north american or pro-european is making it a little bit too easy.
NA fans of international tournaments seem to be eating out of the hand of the NHL board of directors.
The NHL is the only winner in making the relationship between hockey countries infected. They have no incentive
what so ever to broker some kind of deal with an international governing body and let players under contract participate.
If canadiens and americans put pressure on the NHL to come to terms with the IIHF, we could see some progress.
But with he current animosity between NA and Europe over the tournament, nothing will change.

So, again, I cant' blame the NHL for wanting to make money and looking to what is in the best interest for the league
as a product, but I can blame them for the ongoing conflict with the IIHF.

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12-06-2012, 11:59 AM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Slimmy View Post
Agree. Canada cup/world cup is/was an obscure invitational tournament created by and for Canadians.
Ofcourse, becaus of their emense arroganse, there's some level of satisfaction in defeating the Canadians at their own terms; their home ice, their rules.
But that's where it ends. Saying it's on par with the Olympics is just proof of their bloated egos.
Hardly anyone outside of Canada even cares or knows what it is.
And no one outside of europe gives a **** about the World Championships. 2 of the 3 biggest hockey countries dont give a crap about it.

Sure some minor hockey countries do, but so what?

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12-06-2012, 12:01 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
Name me another major sport that has an annual world championship? Football, basketball, rugby, track and field, cricket? It's not feasible. Maybe if the WHC were every four years you could get up on your pedestal and complain about a lack of accommodation.

Name me another sport where one league dominates all others in attracting the top talent and does not have a lot of influence over the Intl governing body.
agree that the WHC should not be every year .. but.. every 4 years that it is on, the NHL should have a break in its schedule allowing the best players to be part of this. Get rid of the All star game(farce) that year and extend the break calling it WHC break.

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12-06-2012, 12:04 PM
  #324
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agree that the WHC should not be every year .. but.. every 4 years that it is on, the NHL should have a break in its schedule allowing the best players to be part of this. Get rid of the All star game(farce) that year and extend the break calling it WHC break.
Hell no. I dont want to risk my teams star players getting hurt for the WHC. Its bad enough when it happens at the Olympics (Hasek ).

The Olympics wont reschedule because it REQUIRES winter, and is FAR bigger than hockey.

The WHC refusing to reschedule around the biggest league in the world, a league that is older than it is, and that contains like 99% of the worlds best players is just further evidence that the IIHF is a europe first organization.

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12-06-2012, 12:04 PM
  #325
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While I don't think Russia is far behind, I still believe Canada is the #1. If you were to pit the best of the best of these two in a seven game series, it's going to be a close series. However, when you look at the quantity as well as quality produced from Canada, it puts them ahead. Russia has done an amazing job developing some of these young forwards, but I don't believe they're at the same level. Russia is definitely #2 though.

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