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Old
11-30-2012, 01:06 PM
  #601
HockeyFan100
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Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post
Anyway, this thread exists and there's some strange answers: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1299095

Steve Downie 13
Matt Hunwick 1
Shane O'Brien 5
Paul Stastny 1
Jamie McGinn 1 (this one from an Avs fan which I really don't get)
None 3
Majority of them 1
Gabriel Landeskog 2
Cody McLeod 2
Matt Duchene 2
Erik Johnson 2
Ryan O'Byrne 1
Ryan O'Reilly 1
J.S. Giguere 2
Johnson/Landeskog/"all the Irish" 1
PA Parenteau 1
Tyson Barrie 1

Mainly Oilers fans voting Landeskog, a Rangers fan voting PAP and Blues fans for EJ. I do like how Downie now has a new conference of teams to piss off though.
Well I had to pick someone... Not a huge fan of McG anyways.

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:35 PM
  #602
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New post lockout masterplan, with about 1% chance of happening.

Trade Stastny straight up for Yandle.

Sign UFA's Getzlaf and Perry.

Sign Radar to Duchene's $3.5M deal. Hejduk retires and Kobasew is sent packing. O'Byrne is probably let go, because that just seems like something the Avs will do.

Getzlaf and Perry may be over Anaheim at this point given the direction and experience the last few years. They get 5 year max contracts at $6.5M. Not sure they'd be $7M max contract length guys after 60 and 57 point seasons, and a freshly signed CBA that will probably spawn the most conservative contracts during it's span.

That will put them about a million under the cap at $58.990M. Then they can trade Jones in 2014, and try to move Hejda as well to open up room for raises and improving the D if Elliott/Barrie and the like haven't really taken the next step. The cap most likely will go up as well like under the last deal.

Jones - Getzlaf - Perry
McGinn - Duchene - PAP
Lando - O'Reilly - Downie
Olver - Heard - McLeod

Yandle - EJ
Hejda - O'Brien
Zanon - Wilson

Extras - Barrie, Hunwick, Mitchell

Obviously the D still needs some improving outside the top pairing, but it's better than it is now, and that forward group is among, if not the best in the league. Plus it allows guys like Sgarbossa and Hishon to develop and make the team when they're ready, and when injuries hit. Room will open up for them in a year or two when the Avs have to shed salary.

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12-01-2012, 09:16 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
New post lockout masterplan, with about 1% chance of happening.

Trade Stastny straight up for Yandle.

Sign UFA's Getzlaf and Perry.

Sign Radar to Duchene's $3.5M deal. Hejduk retires and Kobasew is sent packing. O'Byrne is probably let go, because that just seems like something the Avs will do.

Getzlaf and Perry may be over Anaheim at this point given the direction and experience the last few years. They get 5 year max contracts at $6.5M. Not sure they'd be $7M max contract length guys after 60 and 57 point seasons, and a freshly signed CBA that will probably spawn the most conservative contracts during it's span.

That will put them about a million under the cap at $58.990M. Then they can trade Jones in 2014, and try to move Hejda as well to open up room for raises and improving the D if Elliott/Barrie and the like haven't really taken the next step. The cap most likely will go up as well like under the last deal.

Jones - Getzlaf - Perry
McGinn - Duchene - PAP
Lando - O'Reilly - Downie
Olver - Heard - McLeod

Yandle - EJ
Hejda - O'Brien
Zanon - Wilson

Extras - Barrie, Hunwick, Mitchell

Obviously the D still needs some improving outside the top pairing, but it's better than it is now, and that forward group is among, if not the best in the league. Plus it allows guys like Sgarbossa and Hishon to develop and make the team when they're ready, and when injuries hit. Room will open up for them in a year or two when the Avs have to shed salary.
A new CBA doesn't guarantee owners won't still pay up tons of money. It's just they probably won't get away with long deals or using them to circumvent the cap. So there will be plenty of teams willing to sign both of the Ducks stars. There are too many teams out there that will find away to move salary to get those two. Teams like Philly, Toronto, etc despite high payrolls...always try for the big duc...fish. Unless we see another season of Duchene and Stastny not being big performers, I can't see the Avs going after the big two from the Ducks. Love the idea just don't see the reality...especially since the cap will raise each season by a few million even under the proposed offers making teams able to retain key pieces unless they spend 4-5 million on 40-50 point players.

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Old
12-02-2012, 07:43 AM
  #604
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Pass on Getzlaf.

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Old
12-04-2012, 11:58 AM
  #605
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Originally Posted by Zandar View Post
A new CBA doesn't guarantee owners won't still pay up tons of money. It's just they probably won't get away with long deals or using them to circumvent the cap. So there will be plenty of teams willing to sign both of the Ducks stars. There are too many teams out there that will find away to move salary to get those two. Teams like Philly, Toronto, etc despite high payrolls...always try for the big duc...fish. Unless we see another season of Duchene and Stastny not being big performers, I can't see the Avs going after the big two from the Ducks. Love the idea just don't see the reality...especially since the cap will raise each season by a few million even under the proposed offers making teams able to retain key pieces unless they spend 4-5 million on 40-50 point players.
Not saying teams won't pony up a lot of money, but year one will most likely be the most conservative of the CBA, and Getzlaf and Perry had very subpar production years last season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post
Pass on Getzlaf.
I know the idea will likely not happen, but for the sake of argument why do you feel that way? Avs need to bring in a top D somehow. Not really any available on the UFA market, and Stastny may be their best option to use.

Getzlaf alone might be a gamble, but if Perry came along with him I think the chances are better that both could return to a PPG with a change of scenery, and each other as line mates. Basically swapping Stastny for a bigger nastier center that has put up PPG+ seasons but lately has scored at the same pace as Staz who has only topped out around a PPG. If Stastny is used to bring in a D, would you feel comfortable with Duchene and O'Reilly as the top two centers production wise, and if not what would a better option be to replace Staz?

Again, not advocating trading Stastny per se, or that this hypothetical situation would ever happen.

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Old
12-04-2012, 12:06 PM
  #606
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It's not even worth speculating about trading Stastny for a defender and replacing him with Getzlaf + Perry. Even the most optimistic of people seen the futility in that discussion.

For the record, there's no logical basis in that anyways. Stastny would have to be traded first and all NHL GM's know you don't trade a guy in hopes of signing another to replace the asset you moved unless they are an abundant position in the market.

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Old
12-04-2012, 12:16 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
It's not even worth speculating about trading Stastny for a defender and replacing him with Getzlaf + Perry. Even the most optimistic of people seen the futility in that discussion.

For the record, there's no logical basis in that anyways. Stastny would have to be traded first and all NHL GM's know you don't trade a guy in hopes of signing another to replace the asset you moved unless they are an abundant position in the market.
Sorry, guess we should go back to talking about...............wait there's nothing else to talk about.

You're trying to intellectualize this too much anyway, and still not thinking it through at the same time. They could trade Stastny ahead of time, because they NEED a D. Even if they don't replace him, this still may be a viable option, with hopes of Duchene taking the next step production wise, and a backup plan of bringing in someone else down the road via UFA or trade/prospect that could supplement the production if he can't.

Then they go into the UFA period with Getzlaf and Perry on the table, and the option to give them an offer to be top line players of a young team ready to take the next step, and secondary scoring behind them that they didn't have in Anaheim.

There's plenty of logical basis for it to happen. Doesn't mean it will, or that it isn't highly unlikely which I made a point of saying, but it's a hypothetical situation brought upon by the sheer boredom of nothing hockey related to talk about.

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12-04-2012, 12:54 PM
  #608
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I understand, just don't see the point in it.

Did you know that in the past 4 seasons Colorado is 15-30-3 (4-15-3 the past 3 years!) without Stastny in the lineup? With a -49 GF/GA ratio?

We go from a 2.27 GF/G to 2.75 GF/G just with him in the lineup. We drop from 3.29 GA/G to 3.0 GA/G with him in the lineup. We have a 50% better chance to win a game with Stastny in the lineup than without him over 4 years.

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12-04-2012, 01:01 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Sorry, guess we should go back to talking about...............wait there's nothing else to talk about.

You're trying to intellectualize this too much anyway, and still not thinking it through at the same time. They could trade Stastny ahead of time, because they NEED a D. Even if they don't replace him, this still may be a viable option, with hopes of Duchene taking the next step production wise, and a backup plan of bringing in someone else down the road via UFA or trade/prospect that could supplement the production if he can't.

Then they go into the UFA period with Getzlaf and Perry on the table, and the option to give them an offer to be top line players of a young team ready to take the next step, and secondary scoring behind them that they didn't have in Anaheim.

There's plenty of logical basis for it to happen. Doesn't mean it will, or that it isn't highly unlikely which I made a point of saying, but it's a hypothetical situation brought upon by the sheer boredom of nothing hockey related to talk about.
Sure its fun to throw around ideas but even the best laid plans don't take into the long term. Lets just say the cap goes up 5 million TOTAL for the next 3 seasons. While we may see some savings moving players here and there we still have to account for who replaces them and for upcoming raises. The Avs are at 55 million withOUT O'Reilly signed so based on the projected "conservative" cap scenario, the Avs have about 10 million to work with to sign O'Reilly and for acquisitions and pay raises. Unless we see the signs of the apocalypse, there is no way Landeskog, Duchene, Downie, EJ, Varlamov, McGinn, etc. couldn't see a bump of a million or more EACH. If we are not careful we will see some of the issues Pittsburgh & Chicago are/were dealing with where the cap was ate up by a lot of the core with no room to pay the complimentary scorers and quality depth players. Do you really want players like Dupuis, Talbot, Cooke, Bickell or Bolland as top 6 scoring forwards? Sure Sakic and Forsberg made even players like Lacroix, Jones, Nieminen, and company look like top 6 forwards... so while having the Stastny for D swap and the acquisition of the Anaheim stars seems plausible...it just isn't possible.

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12-04-2012, 06:31 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
I understand, just don't see the point in it.

Did you know that in the past 4 seasons Colorado is 15-30-3 (4-15-3 the past 3 years!) without Stastny in the lineup? With a -49 GF/GA ratio?

We go from a 2.27 GF/G to 2.75 GF/G just with him in the lineup. We drop from 3.29 GA/G to 3.0 GA/G with him in the lineup. We have a 50% better chance to win a game with Stastny in the lineup than without him over 4 years.
That's pretty interesting...

As for Foppa2118's proposals, I'm surprised people are shutting this down. There is seriously nothing else to talk about right now.

Do teams trade star players? Yes.
Do teams go out and sign the two best players in the free agent market? Yes.

It's got like a 0.0000000001% chance of happening, but no sense in saying no sense in discussing.

Guys like McGinn, Downie, Jones, or Pap would easily be sacrificed if it meant the former Hart Trophy winner, or a guy who has been over a point a game 4 out of the last 5 seasons.

Perry and Getzlaf could easily be next year's Suter/Parise. And Paul Stastny is in no way so tremendous that if the right offer came along he wouldn't be traded. Any of the Avs players would be.

I think if this were to happen, you would need to find a taker for Jones. It would also slow O'Reilly's development as an offensive player I'd bet. Powerplay time would now be split between Duchene, Getz, Perry, Landeskog, and probably PAP. As for the points, my bet would be Yandle and EJ play almost the entire PP. I guess he could be the 6th forward, but if some other player like McGinn was on a hot streak it would probably be RO'R to lose PP time. He would also most likely be asked to pick up defensively for the absence of Stastny further pushing him to a 3rd line role.

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Old
12-04-2012, 06:51 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
I understand, just don't see the point in it.

Did you know that in the past 4 seasons Colorado is 15-30-3 (4-15-3 the past 3 years!) without Stastny in the lineup? With a -49 GF/GA ratio?

We go from a 2.27 GF/G to 2.75 GF/G just with him in the lineup. We drop from 3.29 GA/G to 3.0 GA/G with him in the lineup. We have a 50% better chance to win a game with Stastny in the lineup than without him over 4 years.
I've never been a proponent of trading Stastny. In fact I've always been one of the people here that has pointed out his importance.

I'm not talking about throwing Stastny away, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. If it's that you don't think this will ever happen, that I couldn't argue with because it was just a fantasy idea thrown out there.

I don't see how you could be against bringing in Getzlaf and Perry while sacrificing Stastny though in principle. They are both better players, and proven PPG+ guys. Something that I don't think Stastny has in him. He doesn't have enough pure talent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zandar View Post
Sure its fun to throw around ideas but even the best laid plans don't take into the long term. Lets just say the cap goes up 5 million TOTAL for the next 3 seasons. While we may see some savings moving players here and there we still have to account for who replaces them and for upcoming raises. The Avs are at 55 million withOUT O'Reilly signed so based on the projected "conservative" cap scenario, the Avs have about 10 million to work with to sign O'Reilly and for acquisitions and pay raises. Unless we see the signs of the apocalypse, there is no way Landeskog, Duchene, Downie, EJ, Varlamov, McGinn, etc. couldn't see a bump of a million or more EACH. If we are not careful we will see some of the issues Pittsburgh & Chicago are/were dealing with where the cap was ate up by a lot of the core with no room to pay the complimentary scorers and quality depth players. Do you really want players like Dupuis, Talbot, Cooke, Bickell or Bolland as top 6 scoring forwards? Sure Sakic and Forsberg made even players like Lacroix, Jones, Nieminen, and company look like top 6 forwards... so while having the Stastny for D swap and the acquisition of the Anaheim stars seems plausible...it just isn't possible.
It will require some adjusting down the line in terms of cap space, but we see this every year. Teams like Philly or NY bring in big salary guys every year, and find a way to clear space down the line with trades, or clever thinking.

It's certainly manageable, especially when trading Jones after his second year, and finding a way to move Hejda (obviously easier said than done) would open up $8M alone.

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12-04-2012, 09:11 PM
  #612
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in terms of "because **** it why not" pipedreams,

Duchene for McDonagh
Stastny for Yandle
Jones for Nielsen
1st round pick for Goc
sign Getzlaf
sign Perrty

Landy-Getz-PAP
McGinn-Sgarbossa-Perry
Nielsen-ROR-Downie
plug-Goc-goon

McD-EJ
Siemans-Yandle
Gaunce-Elliott

offense would take a small hit but the defense would be miles better

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12-04-2012, 09:13 PM
  #613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
in terms of "because **** it why not" pipedreams,

Duchene for McDonagh
Stastny for Yandle
Jones for Nielsen
1st round pick for Goc
sign Getzlaf
sign Perrty

Landy-Getz-PAP
McGinn-Sgarbossa-Perry
Nielsen-ROR-Downie
plug-Goc-goon

McD-EJ
Siemans-Yandle
Gaunce-Elliott

offense would take a small hit but the defense would be miles better
Where is Barrie?

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Old
12-05-2012, 07:40 AM
  #614
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I know the idea will likely not happen, but for the sake of argument why do you feel that way? Avs need to bring in a top D somehow. Not really any available on the UFA market, and Stastny may be their best option to use.

Getzlaf alone might be a gamble, but if Perry came along with him I think the chances are better that both could return to a PPG with a change of scenery, and each other as line mates. Basically swapping Stastny for a bigger nastier center that has put up PPG+ seasons but lately has scored at the same pace as Staz who has only topped out around a PPG. If Stastny is used to bring in a D, would you feel comfortable with Duchene and O'Reilly as the top two centers production wise, and if not what would a better option be to replace Staz?

Again, not advocating trading Stastny per se, or that this hypothetical situation would ever happen.
I don't really like Getzlaf to be honest. As much as I think Stastny is overvalued by Avs fans if he plays with consistent linemates here he can put up at least 70 points a season, and that would come a lot cheaper than Getzlaf would.

Trading Stastny for a D is a no for me because I don't trust O'Reilly to play top 6 minutes full time yet. I don't know where the D we need will come from, but it's not completely essential right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
in terms of "because **** it why not" pipedreams,

Duchene for McDonagh
Stastny for Yandle
Jones for Nielsen
1st round pick for Goc
sign Getzlaf
sign Perrty

Landy-Getz-PAP
McGinn-Sgarbossa-Perry
Nielsen-ROR-Downie
plug-Goc-goon

McD-EJ
Siemans-Yandle
Gaunce-Elliott

offense would take a small hit but the defense would be miles better
Why trade for Nielsen if you aren't playing him at centre?

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12-05-2012, 11:08 AM
  #615
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Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post
I don't really like Getzlaf to be honest. As much as I think Stastny is overvalued by Avs fans if he plays with consistent linemates here he can put up at least 70 points a season, and that would come a lot cheaper than Getzlaf would.

Trading Stastny for a D is a no for me because I don't trust O'Reilly to play top 6 minutes full time yet. I don't know where the D we need will come from, but it's not completely essential right now.



Why trade for Nielsen if you aren't playing him at centre?
I like Stastny too, but you wouldn't trade Stastny straight up for Getzlaf? I don't think there would be much if any cap difference between the two, so that shouldn't play a big factor.

To me the bigger concern in trading Stastny, and not replacing him would be Duchene. O'Reilly would be the #2 center, and I don't think there's any doubt he is suitable for that role.

The doubt is whether Duchene can find enough consistency in his game to put up 70+ pts in a number one role every year.

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12-06-2012, 10:31 AM
  #616
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Re our center depth: At present, our high, or upper end is far from anywhere NEAR the top of the league production wise. That being said, our bottom third centermen (don't even know who out of Stazz, Duchy or O'Reilly that is tbh) is quite a bit better than a fair amount of the opposition.

Does that make our top three centermen as a core top five in the league? At present, no. Not by a mile. Potentially though, yes.

In order for our centermen to play to their potential, they need to be surrounded by an additional one to two blue chip, marquee wingers.

I really wish had kept all of Fleishmann, Mueller and Liles, who we all pretty well let go (after giving stuff up to acquire the first two) for nothing.
I agree that the Avs need an additional one or two top tier wingers to extract every bit of potential from the centers. I think O'Reilly and Staz are those top centers, and that Dutchy should be traded for one of the elusive wingers needed. Here's what I propose:

To Colorado - Evander Kane + 2nd round pick

To Winnipeg - Matt Duchene


Evander Kane scored 30 goals as a 20 year old! He's exactly what the Avs need! He's only gonna get better from here!

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12-06-2012, 11:49 AM
  #617
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Originally Posted by Daddy Longlegs View Post
I agree that the Avs need an additional one or two top tier wingers to extract every bit of potential from the centers. I think O'Reilly and Staz are those top centers, and that Dutchy should be traded for one of the elusive wingers needed. Here's what I propose:

To Colorado - Evander Kane + 2nd round pick

To Winnipeg - Matt Duchene


Evander Kane scored 30 goals as a 20 year old! He's exactly what the Avs need! He's only gonna get better from here!
If the Avs wanted Kane over Duchene, they would have chose him back in 2009. A 2nd round pick is worthless when dealing with franchise players.

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12-06-2012, 12:52 PM
  #618
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Originally Posted by Daddy Longlegs View Post
I agree that the Avs need an additional one or two top tier wingers to extract every bit of potential from the centers. I think O'Reilly and Staz are those top centers, and that Dutchy should be traded for one of the elusive wingers needed. Here's what I propose:

To Colorado - Evander Kane + 2nd round pick

To Winnipeg - Matt Duchene


Evander Kane scored 30 goals as a 20 year old! He's exactly what the Avs need! He's only gonna get better from here!
I'd say Avs only consider it if that 2nd turns into a 1st or a prospect like Scheiflie or Burmistrov.

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12-06-2012, 01:54 PM
  #619
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If the Avs wanted Kane over Duchene, they would have chose him back in 2009. A 2nd round pick is worthless when dealing with franchise players.
I'm not sure I want Kane here. There were whispers of his behavior coming from Winnipeg and he got sent home from the KHL and the team said "Unfortunately, Evander Kane could not adapt to hockey in the KHL".

Duchene is a low maintenance kind of guy and I like that.

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12-06-2012, 08:24 PM
  #620
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I'm not sure I want Kane here. There were whispers of his behavior coming from Winnipeg and he got sent home from the KHL and the team said "Unfortunately, Evander Kane could not adapt to hockey in the KHL".

Duchene is a low maintenance kind of guy and I like that.
I don't think Kane's attitude will be or ever has been a problem. This team needs wingers! And currently have 3 good centers. Duchene is the most risky, and still has reasonably high trade value! In a year or two, you might be begging for a one for one trade for Scheifele alone! Nows the time to move Duchene IMO. He has decent hands and quick feet, but his hockey IQ just isn't there. In a year or two, the rest of the hockey world will realize that and then we won't get nearly as much in return for him.

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12-06-2012, 08:38 PM
  #621
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddy Longlegs View Post
I don't think Kane's attitude will be or ever has been a problem. This team needs wingers! And currently have 3 good centers. Duchene is the most risky, and still has reasonably high trade value! In a year or two, you might be begging for a one for one trade for Scheifele alone! Nows the time to move Duchene IMO. He has decent hands and quick feet, but his hockey IQ just isn't there. In a year or two, the rest of the hockey world will realize that and then we won't get nearly as much in return for him.
Or if we do make this trade then in a year or two, we might be begging for a trade back.

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12-07-2012, 12:03 AM
  #622
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I see mister longlegs has found the avs board again. I get that you have this sick obsession with Duchene but I'm not sure how you expect to get him by send proposals once a month on the Internet? Do you think Sherman reads HF and cares what we have to say? Or are you hoping for a wizard of oz kind of thing, where if you say it enough times it becomes true?

I think we can all agree that Kane is the next Iginla and the avs would be stupid for not trading for mister debt beat. Is that what you're looking for?

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Old
12-07-2012, 04:41 PM
  #623
Zandar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddy Longlegs View Post
This team needs wingers! And currently have 3 good centers. Duchene is the most risky, and still has reasonably high trade value! He has decent hands and quick feet, but his hockey IQ just isn't there.
Wait when did the Avs need wingers? They added McGinn, Downie and Landeskog last season alone. Then went out and picked up PA in July. Throw in Jones and a possible Hejduk/Olver and the Avs are strong on the wings.

Duchene is the most risky of the centers because his potential is so HIGH. So his perceived value would be high. Even is he turns into an above average player, he's still a damn good second line forward (who can be a center or winger).

Decent hands? Hockey IQ just isn't there? Did it run off and join with Kane or were you referring to Kane? I like Kane as a player but I believe you are over selling one while under selling the other. Duchene has more goals and points in his career and a chunk of that was with Svatos, Tucker, Olver and an aging Hejduk.

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Old
12-08-2012, 07:43 AM
  #624
Ceremony
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Ryan Wilson is playing in a charity game. On the same team as JM Liles and... Todd Bertuzzi: https://twitter.com/otterN9NE/status...675392/photo/1

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Old
12-08-2012, 09:14 AM
  #625
Pierce Hawthorne
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So apparently Jake Gardiner is already a top pairing Defender...

We should trade all three of our Centres for Gardiner and Bozak, we'd easily be getting the better value. Gardiner is gonna be the next Niedermayer.

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