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Leland Irving, why doesn't he play with the Heat ??

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12-05-2012, 06:21 AM
  #26
zrep
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Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
Because he'd be subject to waivers if hockey ever starts this year. If the season is officially cancelled, he'll see more games, since he'll be UFA at the end of this season.

He's signed to a professional tryout, which means he can't appear in more than a specific number of games. It does mean that he can continue to practice with the team indefinitely.
i'm n ot sure to understand
and the only solution is the waivers ?

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12-05-2012, 06:33 AM
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I can honestly say that I am happy with his progress. However, I only think Irving won't be more than a #1B goalie in his career. I would have been happier if he played a season in Europe, I suppose.
Wow. The Flames 2006 first round draft pick is an AHL back up in 2012 and you are happy with his progress? You guys can rag on Flamesfan all you want, he's right.

If the lockout ends tomorrow Kiprusoff and Karlson take the two spots on the Flames which makes Irving still an AHL number 3. And Brust and Taylor are not even on Flames contracts. There are currently 3 goalies in Utah so it's even hard to send him to the ECHL to get some games played.

You are right Stewie, he should be in Europe. Playing. If I was Leland I would be spending my time in the pressbox learning Russian.

And even though he played well at times with the Flames last year in SEVEN starts he had ONE win. NHL GMs' notice things like that. Remember Curtis Mcelhinney? Hey, best of luck Irving, I just don't see it happening with the Flames.

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12-05-2012, 06:47 AM
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Kirant, we have what we have. Yes, the # of games are small, but if we go back to last year it has to be concerning the amount of game action he has been able to get into. You want your stud goalie to get alot of games, not a couple a month.
This is the only point FLAMESFAN made that I don't agree with. Irving is/was being groomed as Kipprusoffs' back up. Meaning that he must stay sharp even if his starts are 2 or even 3 weeks apart. So far he is showing that he can't do that.

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12-05-2012, 08:14 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Guido Sarducci View Post
This is the only point FLAMESFAN made that I don't agree with. Irving is/was being groomed as Kipprusoffs' back up. Meaning that he must stay sharp even if his starts are 2 or even 3 weeks apart. So far he is showing that he can't do that.
Thanks Guido. I think people have to understand it's OK to be critical and still be a fan.

What I had meant by that quote though was I'm not happy with him starting a few games a month in the AHL. I agree with you 100% for him at the NHL level, as Kipper would carry the mail there. Looking back, there really was no reason to sign Karlsson. They had no faith in him last year, and would Irving have really done any worse the year before? Instead he has barly played the past year, and I do think it has affected him.

Like I said earlier, I'm just as unhappy with the organization for the way the whole thing has been managed. But it is also on Irving himself if he can't show he is the best option in Abbottsford, and still the heir to Kipper's throne.

At any rate, I'm sure he gets the start tonight. Brust & Taylor have not been lights out their last few games, so this is his chance to showcase himself.

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12-05-2012, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Guido Sarducci View Post
Wow. The Flames 2006 first round draft pick is an AHL back up in 2012 and you are happy with his progress? You guys can rag on Flamesfan all you want, he's right.

If the lockout ends tomorrow Kiprusoff and Karlson take the two spots on the Flames which makes Irving still an AHL number 3. And Brust and Taylor are not even on Flames contracts. There are currently 3 goalies in Utah so it's even hard to send him to the ECHL to get some games played.

You are right Stewie, he should be in Europe. Playing. If I was Leland I would be spending my time in the pressbox learning Russian.

And even though he played well at times with the Flames last year in SEVEN starts he had ONE win. NHL GMs' notice things like that. Remember Curtis Mcelhinney? Hey, best of luck Irving, I just don't see it happening with the Flames.
How can you say Karlsson would get the backup job he lost it last year as they brought up Irving to play the games instead of Karlsson. There is no way to know who would get the backup role but last year Irving was more of the backup then Karlsson was.

Yes he had 1 win in 7 starts, he also faced more shots per game than Kipper did. Hockey is a team sport if you can't blame the goalie that had .912 Sv% including 1 game where he got blown out to be the main reason we lost 6 of those games.

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12-05-2012, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
How can you say Karlsson would get the backup job he lost it last year as they brought up Irving to play the games instead of Karlsson. There is no way to know who would get the backup role but last year Irving was more of the backup then Karlsson was.

Yes he had 1 win in 7 starts, he also faced more shots per game than Kipper did. Hockey is a team sport if you can't blame the goalie that had .912 Sv% including 1 game where he got blown out to be the main reason we lost 6 of those games.
Glen, at some point you have to stop making excuses. I don't care how many shots he faces, or if his groin is a little sore, or if he's had a baby (and you did use this as an excuse last year). End results are the bottom line, and how many wins does he have in either league over the past year?
Many of you were claiming Irving was one of the best goalie prospects in the league. I'm simply saying if he was he'd be showing more.
Answer me this: When would Irving have had more value - 18 months ago when he was a regular starter and one of the best goalies in the AHL or now? What if we just outright lose him as a FA? To suggest that we may have to look at other options shouldn't be met with so much hostility.
This whole mentality that to post on here you have to gush about our prospects, and if you bring up a concern a bunch of posters jump down your throat is pretty sad.

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12-05-2012, 01:10 PM
  #32
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Wow. The Flames 2006 first round draft pick is an AHL back up in 2012 and you are happy with his progress? You guys can rag on Flamesfan all you want, he's right.
Read the rest of my post - a career ceiling of a 1B goalie isn't exactly superstar material. I never thought he was a great pick to begin with (esp. considering the better goalies had already been taken), and any praise I send his way is mostly due to my own surprise.

I think part of the problem is the revolving door of prospect/backups over the years (McHardtospelly, Phil the Sieve) and Irving has had better results than those folks.

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12-05-2012, 01:14 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN View Post
Glen, at some point you have to stop making excuses. I don't care how many shots he faces, or if his groin is a little sore, or if he's had a baby (and you did use this as an excuse last year). End results are the bottom line, and how many wins does he have in either league over the past year?
Many of you were claiming Irving was one of the best goalie prospects in the league. I'm simply saying if he was he'd be showing more.
Answer me this: When would Irving have had more value - 18 months ago when he was a regular starter and one of the best goalies in the AHL or now? What if we just outright lose him as a FA? To suggest that we may have to look at other options shouldn't be met with so much hostility.
This whole mentality that to post on here you have to gush about our prospects, and if you bring up a concern a bunch of posters jump down your throat is pretty sad.
I never did use the baby excuse another poster did.

I have never made excuses but judging a goalie on wins like like judging a forward on shifts played they don't tell you much. Unless of course you believe Bryzgalov is a better goalie than Kipper because he won a much better % of games started.

I am not making excuses I am frustrated that he isn't in the nhl yet but like my previous post pointed out you are criticizing him for things that aren't true or out of his control.

Again I can't state this enough wins don't equal the talent of the goalie. Hockey is a team sport so to judge 1 player on the effectiveness of the team is moronic, I have no problem with people being critical about our prospects but all I am asking for is a valid argument not he doesn't play enough in the ahl, not he has regressed (not true), not he didn't that great of numbers and ignore the fact he was hurt and did well in the nhl, not he wouldn't be a backup right now as he was last year. If you are going to criticize him then say what you don't like about his game etc, if you think having to defend your position on him with facts is sad then I guess you are going to have a hard to posting your opinion's here.


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12-05-2012, 01:30 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
I never did use the baby excuse another poster did.

I have never made excuses but judging a goalie on wins like like judging a forward on shifts played they don't tell you much. Unless of course you believe Bryzgalov is a better goalie than Kipper because he won a much better % of games started.

I am not making excuses I am frustrated that he isn't in the nhl yet but like my previous post pointed out you are criticizing him for things that aren't true or out of his control.

Again I can't state this enough wins don't equal the talent of the goalie. Hockey is a team sport so to judge 1 player on the effectiveness of the team is moronic, I have no problem with people being critical about our prospects but all I am asking for is a valid argument not he doesn't play enough in the ahl, not he has regressed (not true), not he didn't that great of numbers and ignore the fact he was hurt and did well in the nhl, not he wouldn't be a backup right now as he was last year.
Well, then I apologise for claiming it was you. You said in your post that you do not make excuses, then go on to make them again.
I agree that wins isn't the end all stat for a goalie, and really any stat is due to the team regardless of position. Are you not to use any stat at all to judge a player?
I've said some of this is on management, some on the lockout, but some has to be put on him as well. Just answer my question - did he have more value 18 months ago? The answer is yes, therefore he has regressed.

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12-05-2012, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN View Post
Well, then I apologise for claiming it was you. You said in your post that you do not make excuses, then go on to make them again.
I agree that wins isn't the end all stat for a goalie, and really any stat is due to the team regardless of position. Are you not to use any stat at all to judge a player?
I've said some of this is on management, some on the lockout, but some has to be put on him as well. Just answer my question - did he have more value 18 months ago? The answer is yes, therefore he has regressed.
18 months ago when he hadn't played in the nhl? I would say no proving he is at least a nhl backup has improved his value. What excuses did I give for him? Of course stats are useful but don't only use the least useful one.


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12-05-2012, 01:50 PM
  #36
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18 months ago when he hadn't played in the nhl? I would say no proving he is at least a nhl backup has improved his value. What excuses did I give for him? Of course stats are useful but don't only use the least useful one.
Then we will continue to go in circles on this. If you are OK with his playing time & progress, and think everything is fine then so be it. Maybe you are a glass is half full kind of guy.
I don't think the same as you, which is why I am concerned.

Excuses you have made in this thread: His injury, which didn't stop him from playing in the NHL, but affected him in the AHL. His lack of wins, his lack of playing time this year, the team was bad in front of him, losses are not his fault, etc, etc.

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12-05-2012, 02:08 PM
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Then we will continue to go in circles on this. If you are OK with his playing time & progress, and think everything is fine then so be it. Maybe you are a glass is half full kind of guy.
I don't think the same as you, which is why I am concerned.

Excuses you have made in this thread: His injury, which didn't stop him from playing in the NHL, but affected him in the AHL. His lack of wins, his lack of playing time this year, the team was bad in front of him, losses are not his fault, etc, etc.
I don't think injuries are an excuse, they clearly effected him in both which is why I don't think the 1 win is a big concern. His lack of playing time is not his doing hindsight is 20-20 and he should have gone over seas. I never said losses aren't his fault but they aren't solely his fault just as wins aren't solely his fault either there is a difference.

I don't mean for any of this to seem as a personal attack because you are of course allowed to have your opinion and I think it is completely valid to be concerned about him. But I think the reasons you have given to be concerned are overreactions or simply nothing. I have seen alot of his games quite a few in person and he almost always stands out as the best player on the Heat (I haven't seen him live this year). If there are things to be concerned about I would say it is the weak goals as he seems to play better when seeing constant action he seems to fight the puck when he hasn't seen a shot in a while. He also tends to be under aggressive which helped in the nhl as he wasn't caught of position.

I think worrying that he went 1-3-3 in the nhl is pointless as our last 3 backups went a combined 11-21-9 including Toskala's 2-0 streak. Meaning the other 2 goalies have 9 wins between them in over 5 years.

I am actually happy we have taken our time to develop Irving the right way (many starts in the ahl) as it worked for goalies like Howard(didn't make the nhl fully until 25-26), Cory Crawford (nothing special but a solid 1B goalie, didn't make the nhl until 25-26),Josh Harding(didn't make the nhl until 24-25) while none of superstars and Irving won't all are solid 1 or 1B goalies that is what Irving will be solid but nothing special. Maybe you have had higher expectations?

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12-05-2012, 02:43 PM
  #38
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Your Missing the Point Guys and Gals

In the "A" out side of Oklahoma City(Oilers Nuge,Hallsy,Eberle and Schultz) and Adirondack(Flyers = Schenn, Courturier) The Goalies are the Stars of this league look at Barry Brust my god he broke Johnny Bower's Shutout record. And the Only reason Bower Was in the AHL was because in his 20's after the war when he played for Indianapolis, and Cleveland of the AHL, because there were only 6 NHL teams who carried one Goalie. I mean around 44 or 45 Lester Patrick the Owner and coach of the Rangers Started and won game 3 of the Stanley Cup finals because his Goalie was Injured. What we are all missing is the NHL is gonna start up real soon. Forget Vancouver's Problems of having 4 NHL Ready Goalies in Luongo Schnieder and Eddie Lack and Matt Clime those are the guys in Chicago that are playing for the Chicago Wolves along with future Canucks Blue Line Stud Kevin Connoution and Power Forward Zack Kassian. Now The Flames have an so much in one Position with Kipper, Brust, Irving, and Taylor. Why dont we trade Kipper and have Brust and Taylor in Calgary for the rest of this shortened season giving Irving the reign in Abbotsford and see what we have down there, Because we all know who the Flames are this season we are battling the Oilers for the 9th seed if we are lucky. why not get value out of Kipper and see what we have in the NHL with Brust and Taylor. Then Leland Irving can play in Abbotsford

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12-05-2012, 02:48 PM
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In the "A" out side of Oklahoma City(Oilers Nuge,Hallsy,Eberle and Schultz) and Adirondack(Flyers = Schenn, Courturier) The Goalies are the Stars of this league look at Barry Brust my god he broke Johnny Bower's Shutout record. And the Only reason Bower Was in the AHL was because in his 20's after the war when he played for Indianapolis, and Cleveland of the AHL, because there were only 6 NHL teams who carried one Goalie. I mean around 44 or 45 Lester Patrick the Owner and coach of the Rangers Started and won game 3 of the Stanley Cup finals because his Goalie was Injured. What we are all missing is the NHL is gonna start up real soon. Forget Vancouver's Problems of having 4 NHL Ready Goalies in Luongo Schnieder and Eddie Lack and Matt Clime those are the guys in Chicago that are playing for the Chicago Wolves along with future Canucks Blue Line Stud Kevin Connoution and Power Forward Zack Kassian. Now The Flames have an so much in one Position with Kipper, Brust, Irving, and Taylor. Why dont we trade Kipper and have Brust and Taylor in Calgary for the rest of this shortened season giving Irving the reign in Abbotsford and see what we have down there, Because we all know who the Flames are this season we are battling the Oilers for the 9th seed if we are lucky. why not get value out of Kipper and see what we have in the NHL with Brust and Taylor. Then Leland Irving can play in Abbotsford
Bolded: Based on what? The fact they are talking?


Brust and Taylor are on ahl contracts only and that is a terrible idea. There may be some goalies doing real well in the ahl but top prospects like Jacob Markstrom, Eddie Lack, Riku Helenius are putting as good or worse number than Irving. Irving has played more than enough in the AHL as last year showed he is ready for the NHL he won't learn anything more in the AHL the way he see what we "have" in Irving is by giving him a shot at the next level.


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12-05-2012, 03:07 PM
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why not get value out of Kipper and see what we have in the NHL with Brust and Taylor. Then Leland Irving can play in Abbotsford
Because neither Brust or Taylor have NHL contracts and I don't believe the Flames have enough free contract spaces to sign them to NHL deals. (at least, with the rules from the last CBA)

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12-05-2012, 03:50 PM
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If the Flames traded Kipprusoff, signed Brust and Taylor to NHL deals and then sent Karlson to Abbottsford to be with Leland Irving the NHL would investigate the Flames for possible draft tampering. Not to mention the outrage from the people who have already paid for their 12/13 season tickets. Even the Oilers were able to give the illusion of icing an NHL team the last few seasons.

Besides, even if you are of of the opinion that the Flames should trade Kiprusoff the start of the season is likely when his trade value is at its lowest.

I'm just curious ryundt, what sort of value would you have to get for Kiprusoff to essentially throw the season?

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12-06-2012, 08:15 AM
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Hmmmmmm. I wonder what Gleninator, Stewie, Ininite Iggy and Rolen all have to say about lastnight's performance? Looking at the highlites of those goals, that was terrible. 3 goals on 8 shots. Totally a game the Heat should have won.
I called the start, it was a chance for him to prove something, and he did anything but. I will admit, it's just one game, it's early in the season still, blah blah blah.
At what point do people start to question what we are doing with him?

I don't think he dresses for awhile now.....

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12-06-2012, 11:39 AM
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Hmmmmmm. I wonder what Gleninator, Stewie, Ininite Iggy and Rolen all have to say about lastnight's performance? Looking at the highlites of those goals, that was terrible. 3 goals on 8 shots. Totally a game the Heat should have won.
I called the start, it was a chance for him to prove something, and he did anything but. I will admit, it's just one game, it's early in the season still, blah blah blah.
At what point do people start to question what we are doing with him?

I don't think he dresses for awhile now.....
Pretty hard to win games without scoring goals...

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12-06-2012, 11:52 AM
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Hmmmmmm. I wonder what Gleninator, Stewie, Ininite Iggy and Rolen all have to say about lastnight's performance? Looking at the highlites of those goals, that was terrible. 3 goals on 8 shots. Totally a game the Heat should have won.
I called the start, it was a chance for him to prove something, and he did anything but. I will admit, it's just one game, it's early in the season still, blah blah blah.
At what point do people start to question what we are doing with him?

I don't think he dresses for awhile now.....
Leland looked like crap last night. Only one game though. Where were you when I asked which games he had played poorly in twice? You have one example after the fact now. Can you name any others? No, you can't.

The entire team played like garbage, they scored 0 goals and although they controlled the play at times, they never generated real scoring chances. Irving could of came out and stood on his head and they still would've lost. Throw away game.

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12-06-2012, 12:13 PM
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Leland looked like crap last night. Only one game though. Where were you when I asked which games he had played poorly in twice? You have one example after the fact now. Can you name any others? No, you can't.

The entire team played like garbage, they scored 0 goals and although they controlled the play at times, they never generated real scoring chances. Irving could of came out and stood on his head and they still would've lost. Throw away game.
What game did he play good in then? I never answered your question because I had never stated (until now) that he did. I think he has been average so far, and bad lastnight. And to be honest I was hoping for more from him. He is solidly the third fiddle now.

I've simply gone against the grain and am pointing out that (this is probably the 3rd thread I've been saying this....) we should not be content with what we have in Leland Irving, that automatically penciling him in as NHL backup, that claiming he's one of the best goalie prospects in the league was all premature IMO.

As for saying the team played like crap, check out Ward's postgame comments. I have never seen a coach so happy with his team after a loss. When a team completly oushoots the opponent, and your goalie gives up bad goals, the loss goes on the goalie. Pretty cut & dry with this one.

Anyways, I stated earlier that I doubt he dresses fow awhile, but I hope Ward gives him a chance to bounce back next game. The longer he sits on this, the less he plays, the more doubt will come into his mind.

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12-06-2012, 12:13 PM
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Wow. The Flames 2006 first round draft pick is an AHL back up in 2012 and you are happy with his progress?
Goalies are a much different case, as they generally take longer to develop. Hell, look at Tim Thomas!

Regardless, I agree with Stewie in the fact that I see him as a guy who can be a #1B. If I had to compare him to someone, I'd say Brian Boucher. The guy can carry the load for a while, but he isn't a guy you want as that permanent #1.

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12-06-2012, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN View Post
Hmmmmmm. I wonder what Gleninator, Stewie, Ininite Iggy and Rolen all have to say about lastnight's performance? Looking at the highlites of those goals, that was terrible. 3 goals on 8 shots. Totally a game the Heat should have won.
I called the start, it was a chance for him to prove something, and he did anything but. I will admit, it's just one game, it's early in the season still, blah blah blah.
At what point do people start to question what we are doing with him?

I don't think he dresses for awhile now.....
So because I think he is a good prospect I have to justify a bad permanence. He had a bad game no doubt but if you had actually taken the time to read my last response I said games in which he faces low level of shots he struggles in. That is exactly what happened. How do you figure they should have won? They didn't score a goal.

What more do you want done with him? If the season gets cancelled he will most likely be given more starts or go to Europe until then he just has to do what he can.

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12-06-2012, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN View Post
What game did he play good in then? I never answered your question because I had never stated (until now) that he did. I think he has been average so far, and bad lastnight. And to be honest I was hoping for more from him. He is solidly the third fiddle now.

I've simply gone against the grain and am pointing out that (this is probably the 3rd thread I've been saying this....) we should not be content with what we have in Leland Irving, that automatically penciling him in as NHL backup, that claiming he's one of the best goalie prospects in the league was all premature IMO.

As for saying the team played like crap, check out Ward's postgame comments. I have never seen a coach so happy with his team after a loss. When a team completly oushoots the opponent, and your goalie gives up bad goals, the loss goes on the goalie. Pretty cut & dry with this one.

Anyways, I stated earlier that I doubt he dresses fow awhile, but I hope Ward gives him a chance to bounce back next game. The longer he sits on this, the less he plays, the more doubt will come into his mind.
Who said he was a top goalie prospect? That seems wrong to me and I like Irving. How is it wrong to say he could be an nhl backup this year when you know he was last year when he stole the job from Karlsson. Why is it so hard for you to admit he had 6 real good games in the nhl and won the backup job last year. Why do you find it so hard to believe he starts as the backup this year and beats Karlsson again?

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12-06-2012, 12:25 PM
  #49
InfinityIggy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN View Post
What game did he play good in then? I never answered your question because I had never stated (until now) that he did. I think he has been average so far, and bad lastnight. And to be honest I was hoping for more from him. He is solidly the third fiddle now.

I've simply gone against the grain and am pointing out that (this is probably the 3rd thread I've been saying this....) we should not be content with what we have in Leland Irving, that automatically penciling him in as NHL backup, that claiming he's one of the best goalie prospects in the league was all premature IMO.

As for saying the team played like crap, check out Ward's postgame comments. I have never seen a coach so happy with his team after a loss. When a team completly oushoots the opponent, and your goalie gives up bad goals, the loss goes on the goalie. Pretty cut & dry with this one.

Anyways, I stated earlier that I doubt he dresses fow awhile, but I hope Ward gives him a chance to bounce back next game. The longer he sits on this, the less he plays, the more doubt will come into his mind.
His start on Nov.17 he was fantastic, to answer your question:

"Leland Irving made his third start of the season, stopping 36 of 38 shots. The Americans outshot the Heat by a 38-21 margin."

Irving WON that game for team, and stood on his head. Funny how you only show up to point out the lesser games. He has been average to good in his other 3 starts.


No, thats not how it works. If your team doesn't score, the goalie can give up 1000 goals. The loss is still on the team because they could not have put the puck in the net. The forwards like I said had good puck possession but poor scoring chances. The defense was somewhere between below average and awful at times.


Last edited by InfinityIggy: 12-06-2012 at 12:33 PM.
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12-06-2012, 12:30 PM
  #50
TheHudlinator
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
No, thats not how it works. If your team doesn't score, the goalie can give up 1000 goals. The loss is still on the team because they could not have put the puck in the net. The forwards like I said had good puck possession but poor scoring chances. The defense was somewhere between below average and awful at times.
Including the first goal when the defense gave the puck right to the point.

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