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Old
12-06-2012, 12:33 PM
  #226
J17 Vs Proclamation
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
And therefore one league - KHL - is ideal for Europe. Or close cooperation ET and KHL.

Yes, domestic leagues woudl be ruined, but who cares? Now they are developing leagues, they can stay developing league if a few teams from country joins KHL. No difference .. yes, there is one - this leagues will not be farm leagues of NHL anymore but ONLY KHL. It is not true that they would be farm leagues of KHL and NHL at the same time.
Who cares? The fans who follow that the league. The fans whose team aren't incoporated into the KHL, and are left to rot and die. The kids in the systems of those teams that aren't included into the elite. Left to rot and die.

The whole idea is contradictory. You moan about Europe being a feeder league to the NHL. If you make the KHL a pan European league (But lets be honest, the bulk % will be Russian with the elite rich teams from other nations) all you effectively do is make the rest of Europe a feeder league to the KHL. It's hypocrisy.

The people who want this KHL pan European league can be separated into two categories. Those that are naive enough to think the economics of it could rival the NHL. And Russians who wish to have a stronger domestic league. I am fine with the latter, as long as you don't wrap it up in some crusade type mission to save Europe from the NHL. It's about making your league, your product stronger. I am fine with that. If i lived in the market, i'd want a stronger domestic product too. But please, please stop trying to pretend you have an alternate reason. Otherwise you're being a hypocrite.

Why do Swedes, Finns or Germans want to watch their teams play in Russia, instead of playing domestic rivals? Teams like Brynas or Assat won't have the economic might to play in this proposed league. Where is the incentive for the fans there? How does that help a great youth system like Brynas has?

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12-06-2012, 12:46 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
Proclamation, if anyone is "fanatical" in this debate, it's you with your emphasis on "money, money, money". Who says that a league or teams playing in it must be profitable? That's the American notion, where sports is viewed as business. As I'm sure you know, the KHL today almost entirely relies on sponsorship. That's the European notion of sports, if you will. Who said that the two notions are incompatible in a single league? Last time I checked, only a small minority of NHL teams was profitable, and the rest were incurring losses. And so, the few profitable NHL teams are in essence "sponsoring" the majority of NHL teams who aren't profitable. You can say that the NHL is "sponsoring itself" from within, internally, whereas the KHL is being sponsored externally, by Russian oligarchs. What's the big difference?
The reason Europe as an entity cannot compete with the NHL is because the money is not there. The revenue is much lower and the owners have less capital to frivolously spend. That is why European salaries cannot rival NHL salaries, and thus Europe cannot compete with the NHL for star players, because they cannot offer the same money.

Very simple concept. Not difficult to comprehend. I am well aware of how the KHL is funded, and how NHL teams are funded. That was not my point (Although the structure of KHL funding means it is far more susceptible in difficult climates).

The NHL system has it's faults, flaws and unsavoury ideals. This doesn't change the fact that it is an economic juggernaut compared to anything in Europe, and capable of providing salaries for the vast majority that no European league, KHL included, can begin to compete with. There is a difference between giving Ovechkin/Kovalchuk huge funds to lure them back, and giving 3rd or 4th tier stars millions.

I expect the KHL to continue to prosper and have an excellent impact on Russian hockey. Assuming the investment remains that is. But they are very very far away from legitimately competing with the NHL salary wise.

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Also, please stop arguing with strawmen. I never said that the notion of a world-wide hockey league was not fantasy. Rather, I argued that what is "fantasy" in 2012 can turn into reality in 2032, just as many "fantasies" of the past turned into present-day realities. If you told me in the summer of 1989 that the Berlin Wall would tumble down and the Soviet Union woud dissolve within a few years, I would have considered you unhinged. Yet here we are today -- it's all real.
Odd you implement the classic strawman argument, when you are saying without rational data or evidence, that things can change. The notion that things can change is not evidence for anything.

If i told you that the Soviet Union would dissovle in 1989 you would have laughed. Of course, you would have had no real knowledge of the actual economic issues and restraints within the system, so why wouldn't you laugh? In hindsight, it is not suprising the Stalinist system collapsed. The system was so economically flawed that it is indeed laughable.

But lets stick to hockey, rather than pointless historical anecdots and idealist "things change" without any context or analysis. It is entirely useless.

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12-06-2012, 12:55 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
But they are very very far away from legitimately competing with the NHL salary wise.
Who cares? Money is your mantra, not mine. Budgets don't score goals on the ice. It's not important for European hockey teams to compete with NHL teams salary-wise, but hockey-wise. Once European hockey teams are competitive enough, then a world-wide hockey league becomes meaningful.

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In hindsight, it is not suprising

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12-06-2012, 12:59 PM
  #229
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Who cares? Money is your mantra, not mine. Budgets don't score goals on the ice. It's not important for European hockey teams to compete with NHL teams salary-wise, but hockey-wise.
A big lol at that point ! Why do you think do 99% of the European players want to play in the NHL? Because places like Columbus or Phoenix are dream places to live? No, because of MONEY !!

Do you think top calibre players would prefer to play for a Western European team for 500,000$ if the same guy could earn 3,000,000$ in the USA/CAN?

Or do you think guys like Samuel Etoo are playing in one of the world's most dangerous places like Dagestan because of the "intense" atmosphere? No, because the guy gets 20 Mio net a year.

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12-06-2012, 01:00 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
Well. The only three leagues in Europe that are farm leagues (and only the Swedes for NHL, the others for KHL) are Elitserien, SM-liiga and Czech Extraliga. All the other ones like DEL, EBEL or NLA are even signing lot of NHL players. And the fans love their domestic leagues because they are very entertaining and exciting during all of the season.
bold part - yes, this is one point of view. I have another. All euro leagues, which agreed to IIHF-NHL transfer agreement, are NHL farm leagues. I know only about KHL and Czech league which does not agree with this model.

Why I have such attitude? Look, there are many restrictions for euro leagues which adopted this transfer deal. And NHL pays small sum of money for players. These league supported NHL model of paying for Euros. So, they are farm league of NHL. Why the hell, they agreed with it? There was another option - not to sign it, work together (Finns, Swedes, Russians etc) to make better deal.

One more time, I dont say your point of view is wrong or so... I am just saying that there is another point of view

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12-06-2012, 01:03 PM
  #231
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If Slovakia has a club in KHL, so KHL becomes slovak league as well. The same for Sweden, Finland etc.

NHL does not have (and never will have) euro clubs, so is threat for euro leagues.

Quote:
Why do Swedes, Finns or Germans want to watch their teams play in Russia, instead of playing domestic rivals?
because of better product on ice??

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12-06-2012, 01:05 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
Who cares? Money is your mantra, not mine. Budgets don't score goals on the ice. It's not important for European hockey teams to compete with NHL teams salary-wise, but hockey-wise. Once European hockey teams are competitive enough, then a world-wide hockey league becomes meaningful.
Am i the NHL? Am i capitalism? Money is the driving force in markets. It dictates where the employers go. It's great that you have a free spirit philosophy regarding money, and i applaud you for escaping the real world.

I can close my eyes and i am having intercourse with a beautiful lady. Her sister then walks in. I finish my fun, walk downstairs and tell my chef what i wish to consume for breakfast. I drive my ferrai to the tennis court and proceed to play doubles with Charlie Sheen, David Attenborough and Scarlett Johansson. After my sweat, i fly into space to see the aliens living on Mars. I then rest there, in my beautiful 7th holiday home. I am not obliged to be quiet there.

Unfortunately i just opened my eyes again. My money is gone. It was all a lie.

It is truely wonderful for you that you think money is not the reason international hockey is structured the way it is. Very pure of you. Of course, simply ridiculous.

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12-06-2012, 01:06 PM
  #233
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One more time, I dont say your point of view is wrong or so... I am just saying that there is another point of view
I also can't say it's completely out of the world what you mention but you have to see that only very few players stay in the NHL for many years. Guys like the Sedin brothers or Ovechkin etc., okay. But usually even good players stay in the NHL for only a couple of years and than they are valuable reinforcements for the domestic european leagues because they bring the game to a higher level, can give their experiences to younger guys. It's not all bad with that.

PS:

And what about examples of Lev Prague and Slovan Bratislava. Even them being in the KHL does not mean the best Czech/Slovak players of the KHL are playing in their native countries. They could chose any of the other teams, too. So where is the advantage then for Cze/Svk?

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12-06-2012, 01:09 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
J17 Vs Proclamation
If Slovakia has a club in KHL, so KHL becomes slovak league as well. The same for Sweden, Finland etc.

NHL does not have (and never will have) euro clubs, so is threat for euro leagues.


because of better product on ice??
You're making the wrong asusmption that Slovakia is an entire entity. Slovan is an independent entity within the framework of Slovakia. What happens with Slovan does not directly correlate to what happens in other markets within Slovakia.

I would take your view more seriously if you wern't such a hypocrite on the subject.

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12-06-2012, 01:10 PM
  #235
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So where is the advantage then for Cze/Svk?
we have more players in KHL than we had last season, because there is one slovak club based on slovaks.

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12-06-2012, 01:13 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
Do you think top calibre players would prefer to play for a Western European team for 500,000$ if the same guy could earn 3,000,000$ in the USA/CAN?
Vicente, I'm not talking about "top calibre players" but about teams. If European teams are competitive enough against NHL teams on a regular basis, then a world-wide hockey league makes sense. If they aren't competitive enough, then such a league doesn't make sense. As to who exactly needs to play for those European hockey teams, and for exactly how much money, I don't know -- that may be your and Proclamation's obsession, but not mine. All I'm saying is it makes sense to unite the world's best hockey teams in a global league. If all the world's best hockey teams are indeed collected in the NHL only, then a global league makes no sense. But what doesn't make sense in 2012 can make sense in 2032, because the situation can change.

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12-06-2012, 05:01 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
Vicente, I'm not talking about "top calibre players" but about teams. If European teams are competitive enough against NHL teams on a regular basis, then a world-wide hockey league makes sense. If they aren't competitive enough, then such a league doesn't make sense. As to who exactly needs to play for those European hockey teams, and for exactly how much money, I don't know -- that may be your and Proclamation's obsession, but not mine.
But you have to see, too, that there can't be equally competitive teams from two continents if the teams of one continent can pay much higher salaries and thus sign all the good players of the other continent. That is just the problem we had in the recent 30 years.

I also would like to see guys like Ovechkin or Crosby sign with my local DEL team Kölner Haie but without money it's impossible.

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12-06-2012, 06:00 PM
  #238
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But you have to see, too, that there can't be equally competitive teams from two continents if the teams of one continent can pay much higher salaries and thus sign all the good players of the other continent.
"Much higher" and "all the good players" -- certainly not. I'm not convinced, though, that this is true even right now. And I can't see how anyone can predict what the situation will be 20 years from now. To say even in 2012 that "all the good players" have already been signed by the NHL is an insult to many top-quality hockey players with long-term contracts in the KHL. Let me only mention a name like Mozyakin. Do you seriously believe he's worth less than any random NHL 3rd-liner, or perhaps even 2nd-liner? He might be up there with the NHL's best. Perhaps there'll be dozens of such Mozyakins in future, and a team composed of them might well beat any NHL team on any given night.

I already see a clear, new trend forming in recent years. European players who 10 or 15 years ago would have given their everything to try and fight for an NHL roster spot overseas, just no longer give a damn and choose to return to Europe instead. That doesn't mean they aren't good hockey players. It's just that the KHL is already more interesting to them than constantly moving on the fringes of NHL and AHL. Many would today prefer the role of a KHL 2nd-liner over that of an NHL 4th-liner. (Branko Radivojevič anyone?) Does that mean that a KHL team composed of such players is weaker than an NHL team? Not necessarily. Two players could well be of a similar level of quality, but with their quality being otherwise equal, it's understandable for an NHL team to offer a contract to the North American-born rather than the European-born player, if only because of the narrow-rink adaptation issues, language barriers, etc.

Two more examples: Lev's young defenceman Juraj Mikuš was offered the prolongation of his contract with the Toronto Marlies, with the option of possibly fighting for a roster spot on the Maple Leafs in later years. 10 years ago, he would have stayed, but now he's back in Europe playing in the KHL. Another example is last year's Calder Cup winner, Slovan's goaltender Janus. Do you really think that a team composed of the likes of Mozyakin, Mikuš and Janus could not be competitive against any random NHL team? I don't think so. And we're only seeing the beginnings of the trend described above, with the KHL only in its 5th season. Similarly, I'm convinced there are many superb players in the Swedish, Finnish, or Czech league that no NHL fan has ever heard about, but that doesn't mean that a team composed of such players wouldn't be competitive in games against NHL teams.

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12-06-2012, 06:10 PM
  #239
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Faterson

I support your previous statement/post. I would add example of Lehtera, who reportedly had offer from STL Blues last summer, but refused and resigned with Sibir. Look at stats, he is in top 10 in points. Do you guys think he would have no chance to make Blues roster?

Remember Kuznetsov?? Refused Caps.

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12-06-2012, 09:05 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
"Much higher" and "all the good players" -- certainly not. I'm not convinced, though, that this is true even right now. And I can't see how anyone can predict what the situation will be 20 years from now. To say even in 2012 that "all the good players" have already been signed by the NHL is an insult to many top-quality hockey players with long-term contracts in the KHL. Let me only mention a name like Mozyakin. Do you seriously believe he's worth less than any random NHL 3rd-liner, or perhaps even 2nd-liner? He might be up there with the NHL's best. Perhaps there'll be dozens of such Mozyakins in future, and a team composed of them might well beat any NHL team on any given night.
It is true, I agree.
What ice rinks would you suggest for GHL? For example, players like Mozyakin would be more effective on european rinks.
As for me, I like bigger ice, it gives advantage to more skilled players.
When I watch NHL games, sometimes it seems to me that they play inside the bus, which is full of passengers in a rush hour.

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12-06-2012, 09:59 PM
  #241
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That's a good metaphor.

I would keep everything as it is in terms of rinks. Even now within Europe, Finnish rinks are a bit narrower than Russian rinks. So what? It makes the game of hockey more variable and challenging, in that visiting teams need to adapt to an ice rink slightly (or not so slightly, between NHL and KHL) different from their home arena. There's no need to standardize and unify everything to the last detail. This is also customary in baseball -- each baseball stadium and its playing field is slightly different (also in terms of dimensions) and has its own peculiarities.

As I suggested, I would only schedule 10 out of 82 games in a season to be played on the other continent, as part of 2 transatlantic road-trips per 5 games each, so I don't quite understand the hysterical reactions by Proclamation & others. Is 10 out of 82 games per season really that many?

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12-07-2012, 01:38 PM
  #242
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Faterson and Vorky, it's quite funny that you mention all these guys who prefer to stay in KHL instead of seeking their chance in the NHL. That is exactly a point that shows how well the KHL is working and that it doesn't need to be merged into a crazy Global League...

That also shows that if salaries wouldn't change dramatically even in a Global league the same people as right now would join North American teams and the others would stay in Europe. Only difference would be the format of the league but there would be the same open questions.

Sometimes you guys seem to forget that I am PRO KHL and thus anti GHL.

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12-07-2012, 01:52 PM
  #243
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To be clear, I dont support idea of GHL. Too complicated, unreal.

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12-07-2012, 01:57 PM
  #244
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Vicente
To be clear, I dont support idea of GHL. Too complicated, unreal.
Okay, so then I guess we are on the same side.

And Faterson should be too. If he wants to see good hockey in Europe, first address is KHL.

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12-07-2012, 03:28 PM
  #245
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Okay, so then I guess we are on the same side.

And Faterson should be too. If he wants to see good hockey in Europe, first address is KHL.
Faterson lives in a deluded world judging by much of his ramblings on the topic.

Good hockey already exists in Europe. Very good hockey.

The Lehtera example has two meanings behind it. Firstly, European hockey is stylistically different. Not all players can adapt and excel at the two variants (Large and small ice). Many quality European players don't transition well to NA ice, and vica versa (As we see with Evander Kane for example). Or it takes too long to transition, and thus is financially rewarding to stay in Europe. This leads to the second point, some teams in Europe (largely the KHL) can offer good money to players who are not guaranteed NHL time. Making millions as a higher tier guy in the KHL or potentially AHL/limited time in NA to adapt to different philosophies?

None of this has anything to do however with the elite talent. The elite European talent, those can practically step into the NHL right way, or require maybe 1-2 year in the AHL at a young age (Not like 23 or 24) will always favour the NHL the way things are currently structured ; that is where the money is. It is this simple. No need to discuss anything else. The market and distrubtion is driven by money, and the money is still by far more prevailent in the NHL.

This is why a Global league is nonsense. Nothing would change. I think Vicente is on the same page but asserting it in a different fashion. I think Vorky understands, but seems to think i have a different agenda.

Faterson is just sitting in the dope bank listening to unicorns rap about the rainbow ghetto.

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12-07-2012, 04:34 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
This is why a Global league is nonsense.
Sorry, in none of what you wrote I found an explanation of why it is "nonsense", and I read it at least twice. What far more resembles "nonsense" to me is today's situation, with all the best European players fleeing to a different continent so they never get to play competitive games on the continent and in the country where they were born.

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Nothing would change.
Who says something needs to "change" in the sense you mean? All I'm saying is it might be beneficial and attractive, at some point in the future, to sacrifice about a quarter of the games in the 82-game season schedule to regular confrontations between North-American and European hockey -- provided the participating European clubs are competiitive enough to defeat NHL clubs on a nightly basis.

That arrangement only counts on 10 games per season to be played on a different continent. Otherwise, the leagues might go on as they do today, no change required -- except that about 1 in every 4 games would be against a team from a different continent, and points from those games would, naturally, be included in the league tables. Perhaps you guys wouldn't find regular confrontations between North-American and European hockey attractive, but I would, and I bet so would many other hockey fans.

The current KHL season is only 52 games long -- but if it were 82 games long as proposed (and as usual in the NHL), you'd get to see 20 games of your favourite team against North-American opponents, in addition to the entire current KHL season, plus 10 more bonus games. What's wrong with that, in principle?

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12-07-2012, 04:48 PM
  #247
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Perhaps you guys wouldn't find regular confrontations between North-American and European hockey attractive, but I would, and I bet so would many other hockey fans.
It is not that I dont want games among Europe and NHL, but I dont think it is real to have common league. Tourney can be, like Victoria Cup.

- NHL does not want competition with euro clubs, only exibitions
- NHL drafts rules are against EU law (maybe not)

It is not problem to make a schedulle for global league, if both sides want to create such league. It is not real in my eyes. That is a reason I dont support the idea.

Maybe sometimes in future... ok, but firstly Europe must be united in one league or competition. And it is a big problem for Europe. Secondly, all euro federations/leagues must have the same attitude to NHL transfer policy - Russia and Czech rep vs Finland, Sweden etc. Third, NHL transfer agreement with Europe must be advantageous for Europe as well, not like today.

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12-07-2012, 04:56 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by Faterson View Post
Sorry, in none of what you wrote I found an explanation of why it is "nonsense", and I read it at least twice. What far more resembles "nonsense" to me is today's situation, with all the best European players fleeing to a different continent so they never get to play competitive games on the continent and in the country where they were born.
You've been explicity told numerous times. It does not work economically, because the European markets involved are significantly weaker economically. Unless Europe can offer salaries to rival the NHL, this will not change.

European players going to the NHL is simply a business career, similar to any other industry. People go where the money is. If i was offered good/better money to work in a different country, i would take it. I want to experience more than simply my own country.

The notion that people should remain in domestic outlets to work because they were born there is nonsense. You are somehow assocating yourself with these atheletes because you were born on the same continent. Don't. They are simply people you do not know moving elsewhere because it suits them. Patriotism/Nationalism is inherently flawed at the best of times, but you seem to lack any coherent understanding of why the situation is why it is.


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Who says something needs to "change" in the sense you mean? All I'm saying is it might be beneficial and attractive, at some point in the future, to sacrifice about a quarter of the games in the 82-game season schedule to regular confrontations between North-American and European hockey -- provided the participating European clubs are competiitive enough to defeat NHL clubs on a nightly basis.
How are these European clubs going to compete with the NHL teams? Better players. How do they acquire these players? Money. Where does this money come from? You haven't solved or answered anything. Instead you insist on dancing around the issue, proposing idealistic notions lacking any validity or realism behibd them.

Tell me how European teams become more competitive.

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That arrangement only counts on 10 games per season to be played on a different continent. Otherwise, the leagues might go on as they do today, no change required -- except that about 1 in every 4 games would be against a team from a different continent, and points from those games would, naturally, be included in the league tables. Perhaps you guys wouldn't find regular confrontations between North-American and European hockey attractive, but I would, and I bet so would many other hockey fans.
Drivel. You've jumped phase 1 and are now discussing phase 8. How you get there, not what you do when you get there, is the discussion. If a poor man in Brazil wants to fly to London and live in Park lane, one doesn't ask him what he'll do when he is there, one asks him how he is going to get there.

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The current KHL season is only 52 games long -- but if it were 82 games long as proposed (and as usual in the NHL), you'd get to see 20 games of your favourite team against North-American opponents, in addition to the entire current KHL season, plus 10 more bonus games. What's wrong with that, in principle?
You haven't established how the principle works. It's like declaring your intention to time travel, without telling us how.

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12-07-2012, 05:06 PM
  #249
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J17 Vs Proclamation

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How are these European clubs going to compete with the NHL teams? Better players. How do they acquire these players? Money. Where does this money come from?
you claim there is not money in Europe to compete with NHL. But money is in the rest of world. Btw, who owns Machester City, Manchester United, Chelsea London? Money from Arab coutries, US or Russia. No problem for euro hockey clubs to get money from these countries if....

Imagine, NHL is creating Euro conference of 10 more teams.Where does this money come from? I would say US, Canada, Asia etc. The same economics can be applied to Faterson model of global league. But as I wrote, NHL does not support the idea, so unreal.

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12-07-2012, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Maybe sometimes in future...
Yes, exactly. We're talking about the long-term future here, not the 2013/14 season, not even 2017/18.

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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
ok, but firstly Europe must be united in one league or competition.
That's correct! It would be ideal to have 30 (or so) top-quality European teams to compete with the 30 (or so) NHL teams. But for this to happen, each European country (including Russia) woud have to sacrifice the bulk of the teams from its current top national league, so that only the very best teams from the various European national leagues would get to play in the world-wide hockey league. It would basically mean the end of European national hockey leagues as we know them today. And I don't think European countries are ready to do that -- today. It can only be a long-term vision.

Speaking of realistic expansion news, the new SKA coach Yalonen said today he can imagine a Finnish team joining the KHL within 2 or 3 years. I don't think he was only being polite to Russian journalists in saying that. It would be a huge step forward if KHL caught foot in Finland -- and I find Germany and Switzerland to be equally crucial, mainly because they're economic super-powers. Then, Sweden might "relent", too, and send a team to the KHL. Regarding the Czech Republic, it would be more beneficial for the KHL if Lev ceased to exist, or merged with Sparta, so that a traditional Czech club gets to play in the KHL. It should be traditional clubs from each country, not artificial, KHL "custom-ordered" clubs.


Last edited by Faterson: 12-07-2012 at 05:15 PM.
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