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The Lockout Thread: Good Things Come To Those Who Wait

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Old
12-05-2012, 08:42 PM
  #826
Chicago Made Punk
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They left (what my post referenced), apparently had a brief discussion, and went back.

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12-05-2012, 08:42 PM
  #827
MD
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Kevin Allen ‏@ByKevinAllen
Podium is being set up. Someone must have something to say about what is happening here at the negotiations.

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12-05-2012, 08:46 PM
  #828
Caniac125330
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Bettman might be addressing the media soon.

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12-05-2012, 08:49 PM
  #829
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Hmmmmm.


Please?

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12-05-2012, 08:58 PM
  #830
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https://twitter.com/NHLPodium

So amazing. Over 2,000 followers in like 10 minutes.

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12-05-2012, 09:25 PM
  #831
Finlandia WOAT
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12-05-2012, 09:35 PM
  #832
Oogie Boogie
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Source: "Not looking great" after latest talks tonight between owners, players.

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12-05-2012, 09:47 PM
  #833
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New Poll: Anton vs. The Podium.

I hate to say it, but I think the Podium wins.

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12-06-2012, 12:18 AM
  #834
Anton Dubinchuk
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New Poll: Anton vs. The Podium.

I hate to say it, but I think the Podium wins.
The podium's burn on Crosby was epic...

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12-06-2012, 08:10 AM
  #835
tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavex View Post
@HeleneStJames
Source: "Not looking great" after latest talks tonight between owners, players.
All kinds of mixed signals are coming out of that session. Evidently Jeremy Jacobs literally motioned for the owners to just get up and leave, taking everything off the table. By the end of the night there was huge movement on Make Whole and other key issues. Some players aren't happy about not being in the room. Apparently the sides have moved apart on some issues.

You could write every possible outcome on a deck of cards, shuffle and pick 5 at random, and use that information write a credible column on what happened yesterday.

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Old
12-06-2012, 09:03 AM
  #836
Boom Boom Anton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
All kinds of mixed signals are coming out of that session. Evidently Jeremy Jacobs literally motioned for the owners to just get up and leave, taking everything off the table. By the end of the night there was huge movement on Make Whole and other key issues. Some players aren't happy about not being in the room. Apparently the sides have moved apart on some issues.

You could write every possible outcome on a deck of cards, shuffle and pick 5 at random, and use that information write a credible column on what happened yesterday.
That's the problem with trying to track complex negotiations minute by minute, hour by hour, or even day by day.... There can be drastic swings back and forth within those short spans of time and trying to read all the signals correctly is pretty difficult. For instance, if a group walks out, did they walk out to caucus on a particular point before responding? Did they walk out to let the other party discuss a point in private? Did they walk out as a negotiating ploy? Did they walk out to let both parties cool off a bit on a contentious issue? etc...

All in all though, I think the news is pretty positive. There seems to be much more dialogue and movement on issues than we've seen in some time.

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12-06-2012, 09:40 AM
  #837
tarheelhockey
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Well, the highly productive players/owners format was just axed. The two Grinches are going back into the room. So we're about to find out whether yesterday's progress was meaningful or just another slope on the roller coaster.

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Old
12-06-2012, 11:52 AM
  #838
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What's new here? The Players and owners have agreed on a revenue split and everything concerning real dollars but they want different HHR regulations including 10 yrs before UFA, 5 year entry level contracts, etc.

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12-06-2012, 12:03 PM
  #839
tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooked on Ponics View Post
What's new here? The Players and owners have agreed on a revenue split and everything concerning real dollars but they want different HHR regulations including 10 yrs before UFA, 5 year entry level contracts, etc.
At this point, it's basically a matter of the league "paying" the PA for every step they take closer to a true 50/50 split. There are a couple of key concessions that both sides seem unwilling to make, such as contract limits. Right now it's a question of each side squeezing the other as hard as they can without stopping talks completely, looking for that one last win. Thus the tension, the attitude of a guy like Jacobs to just shut it down, and the sense that things are literally proceeding one line-item at a time.

I do think it's going to happen, because both sides are going to suffer mutinies if things fall through. The leadership on both sides is surely aware of this and will stop the squeezing if disaster comes too close. But for the time being there is just a completely overblown sense of tension and combativeness over issues that seem to have been almost-settled for a long time now.

I'd hate to go through a process like this and be expected to go back to work and have a cordial relationship with my employer, and likewise I'd hate to be an employer expected to show support and loyalty to my employees after this. There really has to be a better way to bargain these deals other than this scorched-earth approach.

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12-06-2012, 12:15 PM
  #840
Boom Boom Anton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I'd hate to go through a process like this and be expected to go back to work and have a cordial relationship with my employer, and likewise I'd hate to be an employer expected to show support and loyalty to my employees after this. There really has to be a better way to bargain these deals other than this scorched-earth approach.
There's always Bettman and Fehr that will take the brunt of the hate when all of this is over so the relationship between a player and his owner/GM will probably not change much. Also, time and large contracts heal many wounds. I'm sure Suter and Parise love the Minnesota management no matter what happens in these discussions.

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12-06-2012, 12:26 PM
  #841
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Considering that the owner's originally proposed a 57-43 percent split in their favor, I believe that the contracts limits is their sticking point now. They won't give in as easily as they did with the revenue split. Players had the upperhand in the last CBA, and I think the owners recognize that they deserve it this time. Knowing Fehr and company, they will add fuel to the fire even if it ends in a full season lockout.

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12-06-2012, 02:48 PM
  #842
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Originally Posted by Hooked on Ponics View Post
Considering that the owner's originally proposed a 57-43 percent split in their favor, I believe that the contracts limits is their sticking point now. They won't give in as easily as they did with the revenue split. Players had the upperhand in the last CBA, and I think the owners recognize that they deserve it this time. Knowing Fehr and company, they will add fuel to the fire even if it ends in a full season lockout.
How so?

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12-06-2012, 02:54 PM
  #843
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How so?
Players took 57% revenue shared. There was also no limit to contract years, only 3 year ELC, and I think signing bonuses are getting excluded from new CBA.

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12-06-2012, 03:01 PM
  #844
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Originally Posted by Hooked on Ponics View Post
Players took 57% revenue shared. There was also no limit to contract years, only 3 year ELC, and I think signing bonuses are getting excluded from new CBA.
I think we are talking about two different things, because at the onset of the prior CBA the players took it straight on the chin (salary roll backs and a cap). As it stood in the last year of the deal, yes the players looked to be doing pretty well.

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12-06-2012, 03:15 PM
  #845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooked on Ponics View Post
Players took 57% revenue shared. There was also no limit to contract years, only 3 year ELC, and I think signing bonuses are getting excluded from new CBA.
What determines the "winner" of any negotiation is the comparison of terms before and after the agreement. The players clearly lost the previous negotiation, but that's also an indication of how good they had it previously.

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Old
12-06-2012, 05:16 PM
  #846
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From what I understand, here is what happened:

The owners and the players work hard at negotiating and get to an agreement on "Make Whole" (at this point, I'll admit that I have no idea what this means, only that many posters seem to love typing it and that it is a point of contention). The NHL presents an offer to the players.

The players (and Fehr) wait... and wait... and wait... and then demand a mediator when wasn't on call... and then wait...then come back with a bunch of other demands along with this compromise on make whole. Remember, we still have the backloading/cap circumvention contracts, international play, rule changes and the use of the AHL to dump unwanted contracts to negotiate on.

From my perspective, it seems that once Fehr arrived, the plan became to intentionally piss the owners off. It is classless and will only succeed in creating more bad blood, and committing even the moderate owners (like Buckle, who is evidently very angry) to the "Crush the Union" hardliner cause. I think that Fehr is trying to squeeze every last drop out of the NHL, as they have made it no secret that they want hockey back. Several outcomes:

--The owners are bluffing in an attempt to get Fehr to alleviate the pressure and get back to the negotiating table in good faith. If Fehr falls for this, he eases up, and we get more negotiations (and hopefully a CBA!) post haste.
--The owners are bluffing, and Fehr calls it, in which case we get back to the negotiating table anyway.
--The owners are not bluffing, in which case, Fehr has really pissed them off and screwed both himself, and the fans.

EDIT: The NHLPA has submitted an offer that "addresses League concerns" to Bill Daly.

I hope that this isn't another one of the ridiculous offers we saw earlier.


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Old
12-06-2012, 05:26 PM
  #847
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Oh boy, we get the pouty PA presser in a few minutes. This will be fun. Don Fehr can **** himself with his stalling tactics. Oh yes, let's force mediation when the mediators aren't available and it clearly worked last time...

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Old
12-06-2012, 05:48 PM
  #848
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The NHLPA offer (at the time of this post):

--Agree on "Make Whole" (does this mean no rollbacks? I really don't know)
--8 years, with an opt out at 6.
"A complete agreement on dollars"-- Don Fehr (just moments ago)

It's fairly good PR, and really close to what the NHL proposed. Unless Gary has a good explanation, he should not reject this. At least work with it.

Apparently Fehr is very optimistic that a deal can get done. This weekend has been absurd. And the main board thread is funny as hell. Optimism to pessimism to podium to optimism to pessimism (10 minutes ago) and now wildly optimistic.

I wonder what the owners were so upset about? From Fehr's angle, this seems like a couple of great steps forward.

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Old
12-06-2012, 05:49 PM
  #849
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Wow, the supposed announcement of doom from Fehr turned into a potential end to this madness.

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12-06-2012, 05:50 PM
  #850
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Sounds like there's no real reason for this thing to last much longer.

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