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Philadelphia Phillies (MLB): The "Ruf"fled Offseason Thread

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Old
12-06-2012, 03:28 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by CootaRoo View Post
The guy can't even play 3B and you want him at 2B?
Yes. I'd rather have Michael Young on the roster to be the backup 2b then have Galvis sit in the dugout and get 30 games next year. They did the same thing with Dom Brown and it screwed up his development.

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12-06-2012, 03:40 PM
  #602
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Yes. I'd rather have Michael Young on the roster to be the backup 2b then have Galvis sit in the dugout and get 30 games next year. They did the same thing with Dom Brown and it screwed up his development.
The difference is that a few years back Brown was the organizational savior and Galvis has never been projected as much more than a journeyman/utility infielder. I certainly won't argue that Cholly had a heavy hand in ruining Brown's developmental curve, though.

As I'm sure you know, I'd prefer the team say no to Michael "the Matador" Young at the hot corner and let Frandsen and Galvis stop-gap the position for the year and then re-evaluate next year's FA market vs. Asche's progression.

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12-06-2012, 03:49 PM
  #603
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Evan Grant ‏@Evan_P_Grant_
Michael Young has rejected a trade to the #Phillies and will remain with the #Rangers

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12-06-2012, 03:51 PM
  #604
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Everyone keeps plugging Revere in the leadoff slot, but he doesn't actually project there well with his mediocre OBP. Imo, his low K rates, insanely high GB%, elite speed and respectable AVG all point to him being the prototypical 2-hole hitter. He is going to put the ball in play more often than not (moving runners) and beat out DP throws (minimizing superfluous outs) - that is exactly what you want in that slot in a traditional lineup... he is Polanco-lite with (even) less power and more speed at the plate.
Yeah Revere is best hitting second. His career numbers suggest that as well. He's pretty much the prototype. You can do a lot of different things with him there- bunt, hit and run, move a runner, hook one in the hole.

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Yes. I'd rather have Michael Young on the roster to be the backup 2b then have Galvis sit in the dugout and get 30 games next year. They did the same thing with Dom Brown and it screwed up his development.
Galvis is going to be on the roster barring any unforeseen circumstances. Charlie said it last year, prior to his suspension, that he would stay on the active roster even when Chase came back. He'll get ABs. Between injuries and days offs. Afterall, if Young joins the team, you have the oldest infield in the league. Michael Bourn spent an entire season as a reserve OF. He turned out alright. Besides, he's the only other guy on this roster besides Rollins that can play a ML quality SS.

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12-06-2012, 03:51 PM
  #605
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Evan Grant ‏@Evan_P_Grant_
Michael Young has rejected a trade to the #Phillies and will remain with the #Rangers
Fake account yo.

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12-06-2012, 03:52 PM
  #606
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Evan Grant ‏@Evan_P_Grant_
Michael Young has rejected a trade to the #Phillies and will remain with the #Rangers
I'm not too disappointed. He's 36, a terrible defender, and you just acquired a similar hitter in Revere. Where they go from here? IDK.

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12-06-2012, 04:34 PM
  #607
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Evan Grant ‏@Evan_P_Grant_
Michael Young has rejected a trade to the #Phillies and will remain with the #Rangers
Interesting, because @Evan_P_Grant has nothing to say on the matter!

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12-06-2012, 04:36 PM
  #608
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I'm not too disappointed. He's 36, a terrible defender, and you just acquired a similar hitter in Revere. Where they go from here? IDK.
If Michael Young falls through, then they probably just go with Kevin Fransden. Youkilis already has several multi-year offers that I want no part of.

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12-06-2012, 04:42 PM
  #609
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Fake account yo.
Amy Fadool got me.

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12-06-2012, 04:52 PM
  #610
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Amy Fadool got me.
Fadool'd!

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Old
12-06-2012, 09:31 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by CootaRoo View Post
I'm not sure if you were being serious, so I'll just leave this here for you:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...ners-announced
So it appears I was mistaken. Thank you for the correction.

I guess I am just blinded by Jimmy's stubbornness and unwillingness to do the right thing and accept what his new role should be on the team. I still think the Phillies need to move away from this core because I really don't think they are going to win again with it.

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12-06-2012, 10:18 PM
  #612
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So it appears I was mistaken. Thank you for the correction.

I guess I am just blinded by Jimmy's stubbornness and unwillingness to do the right thing and accept what his new role should be on the team. I still think the Phillies need to move away from this core because I really don't think they are going to win again with it.
Say what you want about Jimmy, but he was the second best SS in the league last year. Its hard to find a SS that can make an impact in all three phases of the game. I do wish they would move some of their aging pieces while they still have some value, but they can't with the new TV deal approaching.

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12-06-2012, 11:09 PM
  #613
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I don't really get all the talk about changing approaches for certain guys. Especially guys in their 30s. These guys have certain skills and certain deficiencies, just like hockey players. You wouldn't expect Nik Grossmann to "change his approach" and start chipping in 30-40 points a year.

Jimmy is still an elite SS, if not an elite leadoff hitter. Although in 2011 his OBP was just about the major league average for leadoff hitters. Revere's not a prototypical leadoff guy either- unless he improves which is possible since he's still young.

As for Michael Young, I hope he declines. As has been pointed out in this thread, he was a negative value to the Rangers last year. That's not the kind of guy we should be giving up any assets for. I don't think 2012 was an aberration for him. Even though he rebounded in 2011, his 2010 was not very good and his defense is progressively getting worse.

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12-07-2012, 12:13 PM
  #614
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
LH hitter. Can't see Cholly putting three lefties in row even if Revere hit them pretty well last year.
Right now I see him at 7 or 8. But Charlie will do what's best for the club. Revere will be our leadoff hitter of the future for sure. We still need a RH power bat either at the corners or 3rd. Plus a setup man and maybe a cheap 5th or 6th guy in the rotation.

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12-07-2012, 12:32 PM
  #615
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If Michael Young falls through, then they probably just go with Kevin Fransden. Youkilis already has several multi-year offers that I want no part of.
If that is the case then they really need a RH power bat in the outfield! I still hold out hope for Ruf, but I would not bet the house on him. Amaro is no dummy. Plus he has Pat to lean on and that is a good thing. I agree with you about Youkilis. I would like him in the lineup but not at those terms that are being leaked about. Cody Asche may need more than one more year in the minors but he right now is their hope at the hot corner.

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12-07-2012, 12:58 PM
  #616
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Revere will be our leadoff hitter of the future for sure.
He has never projected as a lead-off hitter and will likely never succeed in the role - he didn't even take walks in the minors.

The most frustrating thing about the trade is it just reinforces the Phillies "old-school" mentality. They look at a guy's batting average and HR totals much more than their OBP and SLG and completely ignore the more advanced stats like WAR (which is why they broke the bank on the Howard contract even though he was a slightly above average ML 1B at the time - and declining). If Revere had a .300 average and .380-.400 OBP I'd be fine with an embarrassing slugging percentage... but he has only averaged 1 walk for every 20 PAs in his young career thus far which just isn't acceptable going forward if he wants to carve out a long term starting position in the majors, imo.

Someone on another forum asked a very poignant question... if Revere had been a Phillies prospect coming through the system, would he have even gotten a serious look this ST? I still think Gillies could provide most of Revere will this upcoming season (in between hammy pulls, of course) offensively with better defense (actually has an arm) and better projected tools for the future.

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12-07-2012, 01:51 PM
  #617
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Originally Posted by CootaRoo View Post
He has never projected as a lead-off hitter and will likely never succeed in the role - he didn't even take walks in the minors.

The most frustrating thing about the trade is it just reinforces the Phillies "old-school" mentality. They look at a guy's batting average and HR totals much more than their OBP and SLG and completely ignore the more advanced stats like WAR (which is why they broke the bank on the Howard contract even though he was a slightly above average ML 1B at the time - and declining). If Revere had a .300 average and .380-.400 OBP I'd be fine with an embarrassing slugging percentage... but he has only averaged 1 walk for every 20 PAs in his young career thus far which just isn't acceptable going forward if he wants to carve out a long term starting position in the majors, imo.

Someone on another forum asked a very poignant question... if Revere had been a Phillies prospect coming through the system, would he have even gotten a serious look this ST? I still think Gillies could provide most of Revere will this upcoming season (in between hammy pulls, of course) offensively with better defense (actually has an arm) and better projected tools for the future.
Revere was worth 2.4 WAR last year according to BBRef and 3.4 according to fangraphs. That was in only 124 games. Gillies might have more offensive potential and has a better arm but I doubt he covers ground the way Revere does. Even if he stays a 7th or 8th hitter he'll provide value on the bases and defensively. If he gets on base enough to hit 2nd, even better. And furthering the comparison with Gillies, the biggest mark in Revere's favor is that he can actually stay on the field. It would be a huge mistake for the Phillies to count on Gillies at all given his injury history.

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12-07-2012, 02:40 PM
  #618
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Charlie Manuel said he wasn't sure if he would bat Revere 2nd in the order because he's LH and he didn't wasn't sure if he wanted to put three LHers in a row. He did caveat all that by saying he can't really make a projected lineup until he sees who else the team gets.

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12-07-2012, 02:50 PM
  #619
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
Revere was worth 2.4 WAR last year according to BBRef and 3.4 according to fangraphs. That was in only 124 games. Gillies might have more offensive potential and has a better arm but I doubt he covers ground the way Revere does. Even if he stays a 7th or 8th hitter he'll provide value on the bases and defensively. If he gets on base enough to hit 2nd, even better. And furthering the comparison with Gillies, the biggest mark in Revere's favor is that he can actually stay on the field. It would be a huge mistake for the Phillies to count on Gillies at all given his injury history.
Statistics.

There are lies, damned lies and statistics. -Mark Twain

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12-07-2012, 04:47 PM
  #620
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Statistics.

There are lies, damned lies and statistics. -Mark Twain
Yeah, let's just use the good ol' fashioned eye test. I'm sure that never fails.

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Old
12-07-2012, 05:05 PM
  #621
CootaRoo
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Yeah, let's just use the good ol' fashioned eye test. I'm sure that never fails.
This one would be appropriate for Snotbubbles:

"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please."

-Mark Twain

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12-07-2012, 05:18 PM
  #622
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Charlie Manuel said he wasn't sure if he would bat Revere 2nd in the order because he's LH and he didn't wasn't sure if he wanted to put three LHers in a row. He did caveat all that by saying he can't really make a projected lineup until he sees who else the team gets.
You waste his base stealing if you bat him down in the order- especially in the NL. He needs to hit second.

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12-07-2012, 07:43 PM
  #623
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Yeah, let's just use the good ol' fashioned eye test. I'm sure that never fails.
Who said the eye test didn't fail? but I can tell you that I trust that more than trying to mathematically quantify someone's range in the field.

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12-07-2012, 07:43 PM
  #624
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You waste his base stealing if you bat him down in the order- especially in the NL. He needs to hit second.
Why, are only the first two batters allowed to steal bases?

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12-07-2012, 07:48 PM
  #625
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Why, are only the first two batters allowed to steal bases?
If you want to maximize stolen bases and, in turn, runs...you put speed at the top of the order. I'm sure you know this...but it needed to be reiterated. I hope Revere's great speed and good hitting won't be wasted in the 7-8 spot.

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