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12-06-2012, 08:20 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
In looking over bios to answer that question, I came across this quote of yours, which I think makes a very good case for Lehman as part of a great generation:





Looking back over everything that's easily at hand, I see no question that Vezina and Benedict were significantly ahead of Lehman in reputation, but it's absolutely legitimate to question whether team factors and geography (say, being the long-term goalie on a great team in Montreal) had as much to do with those reputations as anything. And typical of the era, there really aren't any objective measurements that don't boil down to team performance. So I'd say it's kind of up in the air whether Lehman was behind the other two, and if so by how much.

If you go purely by reputation, Lehman seems to be the Brodeur of the group. I'd like to do a little better than parroting the common wisdom, but I'm not sure where to look for reliable evidence that would trump the common wisdom.
Let's look at the PCHA. 1915 season saw a very sharp upward spike in scoring during the second half. Why?

Hugh Lehman's GAA average out west improved sharpley out west after 1917:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Lehman

note between 1907 and 1917, Lehman's best GAA was 3.97.

Contrast Georges Vezina thru 1917:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_V%C3%A9zina

The PCHA was more about entertainment than hockey. Example. Meaningless games in the standings at the end of the season were not played. This raises issues about the best goalie, best GAA questions. In the O6 the meaningless games at the end of the season were played, impacting the Vezina race, AST selections and other awards and honours.

Questioning Lehman's numbers and performance out west is based in fact. The PCHA issues still await answers.

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12-06-2012, 11:58 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Let's look at the PCHA. 1915 season saw a very sharp upward spike in scoring during the second half. Why?

Hugh Lehman's GAA average out west improved sharpley out west after 1917:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Lehman

note between 1907 and 1917, Lehman's best GAA was 3.97.

Contrast Georges Vezina thru 1917:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_V%C3%A9zina

The PCHA was more about entertainment than hockey. Example. Meaningless games in the standings at the end of the season were not played. This raises issues about the best goalie, best GAA questions. In the O6 the meaningless games at the end of the season were played, impacting the Vezina race, AST selections and other awards and honours.

Questioning Lehman's numbers and performance out west is based in fact. The PCHA issues still await answers.
Vancouver's scoring more than doubled over the second half of 1915, and that alone accounts for most of the scoring rise. So I'd say it's mostly a case of one great team getting rolling.

Different leagues scoring at different rates. Lehman led his league in GAA 3 times 1907 through 1917, while Vezina only did it once.

How many games were cancelled? One that Coleman thought was cancelled, was actually played, and is included in the stats at Hockey-Reference and the HHoF site. (An exhibition between the same teams a week later was cancelled.) Another two were played, but as exhibitions of 6-man hockey.

The two games between Montreal and Vancouver in 1924. Lehman makes 37 stops in the first 2 periods of game 2 after breaking his nose in game 1.

Game One - Canadiens 3 - Vancouver 2

Game Two - Canadiens 2 - Vancouver 1

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12-06-2012, 12:11 PM
  #153
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This is how serious hockey was taken in canada in early 1900's by famed writer Trente Frayne."Tens of thousands of dollars were bet on each game often thosands changed hands on each goal.Miners in the crowd fought in the rinks during games and up an down the streets after them,and during that wild period the best players were performing in this backward league formed to take advantage of the silver discovery"This was in 1909 Ottawa Senotors vs Montreal Wanderers.Game was played in Northern Ontario.The book is called Mad Men of Hockey.If the same violence happened today people would be in jail.Violence was so much in those days people just don't understand.That's what hockey means to Canada.

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12-06-2012, 03:10 PM
  #154
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Vancouver's scoring more than doubled over the second half of 1915, and that alone accounts for most of the scoring rise. So I'd say it's mostly a case of one great team getting rolling.

Different leagues scoring at different rates. Lehman led his league in GAA 3 times 1907 through 1917, while Vezina only did it once.

How many games were cancelled? One that Coleman thought was cancelled, was actually played, and is included in the stats at Hockey-Reference and the HHoF site. (An exhibition between the same teams a week later was cancelled.) Another two were played, but as exhibitions of 6-man hockey.

The two games between Montreal and Vancouver in 1924. Lehman makes 37 stops in the first 2 periods of game 2 after breaking his nose in game 1.

Game One - Canadiens 3 - Vancouver 2




Game Two - Canadiens 2 - Vancouver 1
Alternative view of the 1914-15 PCHA season.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914%E2...15_PCHA_season

Three team league, not competitive. The standings were determined by Feb 16,1915 with app three weeks of games to play.

Tickets had to be sold. Offence fills seats. Last 4 games of their season, after clinching, Vancouver averaged 12 GF/G previously just over 5GF /G. They gave up 5GA/G.

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12-06-2012, 03:28 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by thom View Post
This is how serious hockey was taken in canada in early 1900's by famed writer Trente Frayne."Tens of thousands of dollars were bet on each game often thosands changed hands on each goal.Miners in the crowd fought in the rinks during games and up an down the streets after them,and during that wild period the best players were performing in this backward league formed to take advantage of the silver discovery"This was in 1909 Ottawa Senotors vs Montreal Wanderers.Game was played in Northern Ontario.The book is called Mad Men of Hockey.If the same violence happened today people would be in jail.Violence was so much in those days people just don't understand.That's what hockey means to Canada.
To be honest, this doesn't sound like hockey itself being taken seriously so much as being part of a culture that encouraged gambling and violence. The same things happened at baseball games, but I wouldn't say that baseball was taken more seriously then than in the 1950s.

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12-06-2012, 04:01 PM
  #156
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Does anyone know where I could find the WHL schedule for 1926? I'd like to see what summaries and commentary exist, but going through day-by-day isn't practical right now.

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12-06-2012, 04:38 PM
  #157
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Your point is correct hockey in the 50's was taken more serious I just wanted to point out that some took it to the cliff.But yes hockey was more important in the 50's

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12-06-2012, 05:07 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
In looking over bios to answer that question, I came across this quote of yours, which I think makes a very good case for Lehman as part of a great generation:





Looking back over everything that's easily at hand, I see no question that Vezina and Benedict were significantly ahead of Lehman in reputation, but it's absolutely legitimate to question whether team factors and geography (say, being the long-term goalie on a great team in Montreal) had as much to do with those reputations as anything. And typical of the era, there really aren't any objective measurements that don't boil down to team performance. So I'd say it's kind of up in the air whether Lehman was behind the other two, and if so by how much.

If you go purely by reputation, Lehman seems to be the Brodeur of the group. I'd like to do a little better than parroting the common wisdom, but I'm not sure where to look for reliable evidence that would trump the common wisdom.
As much as I'd love to take credit for everything, those were Nayld Psycho's words, not mine. He made the ATD Lehman profile that I copied into the goalies before 1950 thread.

If Lehman is the Brodeur to Vezina/Benedict's Hasek/Roy, the question then becomes how far behind them he falls? And there is always the possiblity that Lehman was actually just as good as Vezina/Benedict, but hurt by the he was far away from the media centers out east and then his league folded, so he isn't as remembered.


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12-06-2012, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Alternative view of the 1914-15 PCHA season.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914%E2...15_PCHA_season

Three team league, not competitive. The standings were determined by Feb 16,1915 with app three weeks of games to play.

Tickets had to be sold. Offence fills seats. Last 4 games of their season, after clinching, Vancouver averaged 12 GF/G previously just over 5GF /G. They gave up 5GA/G.
That "not competitive league" beat the NHA for the Stanley Cup that spring.


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12-06-2012, 05:17 PM
  #160
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That "not competitive league" beat the NHA for the Stanley Cup that spring.
Not to mention, a year later Seattle gets formed with 4 players plucked straight off an NHA roster providing a huge boost to the league's competitiveness.

The WHA thing needs a lot more support to try to downgrade the PCHA imo. We talk a lot about how the 70s were watered down, but does anyone honestly believe it was a "split league" era like we have in Lehman's career?

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12-06-2012, 05:21 PM
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Not to mention, a year later Seattle gets formed with 4 players plucked straight off an NHA roster providing a huge boost to the league's competitiveness.

The WHA thing needs a lot more support to try to downgrade the PCHA imo. We talk a lot about how the 70s were watered down, but does anyone honestly believe it was a "split league" era like we have in Lehman's career?
Exactly. The PCHA won Stanley Cups in 1915 and 1917 and was tied in 1919 before the flu cancelled the series. Does anyone actually think the WHA champion would have that record against the NHL champion in the 1970s, even if they had home ice advantage for the series?

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12-06-2012, 05:24 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Alternative view of the 1914-15 PCHA season.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914%E2...15_PCHA_season

Three team league, not competitive. The standings were determined by Feb 16,1915 with app three weeks of games to play.

Tickets had to be sold. Offence fills seats. Last 4 games of their season, after clinching, Vancouver averaged 12 GF/G previously just over 5GF /G. They gave up 5GA/G.
They also scored 26 goals in the 3 game Cup match against Ottawa. Ottawa didn't need to give up goals to sell tickets did they?

The wiki link is just straight from The Trail of the Stanley Cup. It says that games were cancelled in 3 straight years, but the final game in 1914 wasn't cancelled.

Edmonton Journal, Feb. 28, 1914

Calgary Herald, Feb. 28, 1914

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12-06-2012, 05:34 PM
  #163
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Not Competitive.

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That "not competitive league" beat the NHA for the Stanley Cup that spring.
Vancouver was 13-4, Portland was 9-9, Victoria was 4-13. No competitive balance.

NHA had lost players to WWI - Allan Scotty Davidson captain and leader of the 1914 SC Champions Toronto team was gone, never to return.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotty_Davidson

Effectively Hugh Lehman's circumstances were similar to Bill Durnan and Bernie Parent whose efforts get denigrated for playing in the NHL during stretches where the competitive balance did not meet some undefined ideal. Lehman should either be viewed in the same light or Durnan and Parent are owed a huge apology for the way they have been treated.

Posters are always raising the lack of competitive balance in the 1940s NHL, 1970s NHL.

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12-06-2012, 05:40 PM
  #164
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1915 Ottawa

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They also scored 26 goals in the 3 game Cup match against Ottawa. Ottawa didn't need to give up goals to sell tickets did they?

The wiki link is just straight from The Trail of the Stanley Cup. It says that games were cancelled in 3 straight years, but the final game in 1914 wasn't cancelled.

Edmonton Journal, Feb. 28, 1914


Calgary Herald, Feb. 28, 1914
Ottawa was the best of a weakened NHA - WWI. see previous post.

1914 dates are pre WWI(28 July 1914 11 November 1918) do not matter.

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12-06-2012, 05:44 PM
  #165
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Exactly. The PCHA won Stanley Cups in 1915 and 1917 and was tied in 1919 before the flu cancelled the series. Does anyone actually think the WHA champion would have that record against the NHL champion in the 1970s, even if they had home ice advantage for the series?
Depends. Exactly how different were the rules between the WHA and NHL in 1970 compared to the difference between the PCHA and NHA, and how much "foul play" was involved in winning those Cups in 1915/17 (specifically)? Think about the state of the NHA at that point, and why/how the NHL consequently came to be. The "1915-17: World War I and the end of the NHA" wiki entry elaborates at length, but the Toronto Shamrock's wiki entry also adds:

"The team had also acquired NHA scoring champion Tommy Smith before Livingtone took over. A tug of war developed over Smith's services. The Pacific Coast Hockey Association claimed Smith was their property; Livingstone, just as stubbornly, insisted he belonged to Toronto. The PCHA's bosses, Lester Patrick and Frank Patrick, threatened they would raid the NHA for players the next season."

...

"Meanwhile, Toronto's other NHA club, the Toronto Blueshirts, had fallen from first place to fourth. On the west coast, the Patrick brothers announced an expansion team, the Seattle Metropolitans and the PCHA zeroed in on the Blueshirts' roster, signing many of their top players. Livingstone purchased the Toronto Blueshirts and owned two NHA teams but after the PCHA raids only had enough players for one team. He transferred Shamrocks players to the Blueshirts, and only the Blueshirts competed in the 191516 NHA season. When Livingstone failed to sell the Shamrocks, the NHA seized the franchise, which was left dormant for the year. The National Hockey Association reactivated the abandoned Shamrocks franchise in 191617, awarding it to a Canadian military team, the Toronto 228th Battalion. The league became the National Hockey League the following season and neither of the Toronto NHA franchises were included in the new league."

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12-06-2012, 05:46 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Effectively Hugh Lehman's circumstances were similar to Bill Durnan and Bernie Parent whose efforts get denigrated for playing in the NHL during stretches where the competitive balance did not meet some undefined ideal. Lehman should either be viewed in the same light or Durnan and Parent are owed a huge apology for the way they have been treated.
While perhaps a bit dramatic, somewhat surprisingly, I agree.

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12-06-2012, 05:51 PM
  #167
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Depends. Exactly how different were the rules between the WHA and NHL in 1970 compared to the difference between the PCHA and NHA, and how much "foul play" was involved in winning those Cups in 1915/17 (specifically)? Think about the state of the NHA at that point, and why/how the NHL consequently came to be. The "1915-17: World War I and the end of the NHA" wiki entry elaborates at length, but the Toronto Shamrock's wiki entry also adds:
NHA and PCHA alternated each other's rules each game, and it was already shown upthread that while playing under familiar rules helped, the difference wasn't huge.

And what do you mean "foul play?" The PCHA was generally considered a less rough league than the NHA/NHL. I know Eddie Gerard was considered a clean player in the NHA/NHL, but the PCHA complained about how rough he was in the Cup finals.

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12-06-2012, 05:57 PM
  #168
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1916-17 appears to be the season most affected by World War I and the affect is quite obviously not nearly as profound as World War 2. These are the players still in the NHA in 1916-17:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1916%E2%80%9317_NHA_season

Actually, I did a little more research and Canada briefly had a military draft from 1917-1918. So probably the first season of the NHL would have been most affected. Either way, this is only a year or two out of Lehman's 20 year career.


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12-06-2012, 05:58 PM
  #169
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NHA and PCHA alternated each other's rules each game, and it was already shown upthread that while playing under familiar rules helped, the difference wasn't huge.
But there was a difference that players had to adjust for between leagues back then, and you freely admit that it did make a difference. To my knowledge, the rules in the WHA were relatively consistent with the NHL in comparison. How were you "quantifying" the chances in your scenario, if we're allowing the possibility of a "home rules advantage" for the WHA on occasion?

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And what do you mean "foul play?" The PCHA was generally considered a less rough league than the NHA/NHL. I know Eddie Gerard was considered a clean player in the NHA/NHL, but the PCHA complained about how rough he was in the Cup finals.
I mean player "poaching" by the Patricks exacerbating the drain of players, during the war years specifically, like the links and provided excerpts partially explain.

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12-06-2012, 05:58 PM
  #170
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Depends. Exactly how different were the rules between the WHA and NHL in 1970 compared to the difference between the PCHA and NHA, and how much "foul play" was involved in winning those Cups in 1915/17 (specifically)? Think about the state of the NHA at that point, and why/how the NHL consequently came to be. The "1915-17: World War I and the end of the NHA" wiki entry elaborates at length, but the Toronto Shamrock's wiki entry also adds:

"The team had also acquired NHA scoring champion Tommy Smith before Livingtone took over. A tug of war developed over Smith's services. The Pacific Coast Hockey Association claimed Smith was their property; Livingstone, just as stubbornly, insisted he belonged to Toronto. The PCHA's bosses, Lester Patrick and Frank Patrick, threatened they would raid the NHA for players the next season."

...

"Meanwhile, Toronto's other NHA club, the Toronto Blueshirts, had fallen from first place to fourth. On the west coast, the Patrick brothers announced an expansion team, the Seattle Metropolitans and the PCHA zeroed in on the Blueshirts' roster, signing many of their top players. Livingstone purchased the Toronto Blueshirts and owned two NHA teams but after the PCHA raids only had enough players for one team. He transferred Shamrocks players to the Blueshirts, and only the Blueshirts competed in the 1915–16 NHA season. When Livingstone failed to sell the Shamrocks, the NHA seized the franchise, which was left dormant for the year. The National Hockey Association reactivated the abandoned Shamrocks franchise in 1916–17, awarding it to a Canadian military team, the Toronto 228th Battalion. The league became the National Hockey League the following season and neither of the Toronto NHA franchises were included in the new league."
Honest question, which part of that is supposed to foul play? Or who is acting improperly? (probably a better way to convey what I mean)

Livingstone was a guy who seems to have had little luck (possibly his own doing) and lots of the things that happened to him seemed unfair. But I wouldn't call anything the Patricks did unfair, the NHA essentially have themselves to blame for all the raiding between leagues. The NHA weren't any kinder to Livingstone either, he's the man responsible for the NHL - in that the rest of the NHA owners wanted to form a new league without him and called it the NHL.

In 10-11 the NHA institutes a salary cap, not as a means of parity but rather controlling player costs, and then one year later two hockey players start their own league and offer their peers more money to jump on board. Everything after there was ugly politics on both sides who were playing a zero-sum game over a limited pool of talented hockey players.

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12-06-2012, 06:07 PM
  #171
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Posters who think the NHA/NHL was a superior league to the Western ones before 1926 really need to explain while slightly over half of the NHL's leading scorers in 1926-27 spent the previous season in the WHL (the successor to the WCHL after it absorbed the PCHA).

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12-06-2012, 06:09 PM
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So the claim now is that the PCHA was a lesser league because they poached players from the NHA? Wouldn't stealing good players make them a more competitive league?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
But there was a difference that players had to adjust for between leagues back then, and you freely admit that it did make a difference. To my knowledge, the rules in the WHA were relatively consistent with the NHL in comparison. How were you "quantifying" the chances in your scenario, if we're allowing the possibility of a "home rules advantage" for the WHA on occasion?
See post 64.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda
Home rules: 11-11
Away rules: 10-15-1
Doesn't seem like a huge difference.

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12-06-2012, 06:10 PM
  #173
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Quantify

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1916-17 appears to be the season most affected by World War I and the affect is quite obviously not nearly as profound as World War 2. These are the players still in the NHA in 1916-17:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1916%E2%80%9317_NHA_season
Quantify the effect you allege in the bolded.

George Richardson and Allan Davidson two HHOF inductees died in WWI. How many deaths of HHOF quality players were caused by WWII.

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12-06-2012, 06:12 PM
  #174
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Quantify the effect you allege in the bolded.

George Richardson and Allan Davidson two HHOF inductees died in WWI. How many deaths of HHOF quality players were caused by WWII.
NHL players who left for World War 2 were coddled in military units where they basically entertained the troops. But the fact is, they were not in the NHL. Fewer NHLers left during World War 1 and most of those who did leave did so for a year or less. But in World War 1, they did fight real battles.

If you actually look at the player rosters during the War years, it's quite obvious World War 2 had a greater affect on the talent pool. But you're right that we shouldn't ignore the affect of World War 1 where it has one.


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12-06-2012, 06:21 PM
  #175
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1979-80 nhl

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Posters who think the NHA/NHL was a superior league to the Western ones before 1926 really need to explain while slightly over half of the NHL's leading scorers in 1926-27 spent the previous season in the WHL (the successor to the WCHL after it absorbed the PCHA).
3 of the top 10 NHL scorers during the 1979-80 season played in the WHA during the 1978-79 season.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Given the relative size of the leagues prior to the respective consolidations the comparble to the WHA seems viable.

The only difference seems to be that the goaltending and defensemen from the western teams were a bit stronger in 1926-27.

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