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12-06-2012, 07:13 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by Ron View Post
Just unbelievable.

What is wrong with the players? They got what they wanted with "make whole" and they start with this pension bull ****.

Are you still in the NHLPA camp, no name? After this?
Like I said at the top of this page, it's getting hard to side with the NHLPA.

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12-06-2012, 07:18 PM
  #352
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Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Bettman confirms the elements the league added to the table this week are now OFF the table

Bettman says they're going to take a deep breath and regroup.

Tim Panaccio ‏@tpanotchCSN

bettman said the key element was "make whole" in past talks . bettman is very upset at this presser
This is what I assumed will happen the second they hit a snag. GB was a genius in setting up a players / owners meeting. His goal was:
a) to maybe work something out.
b) create a divide amongst the union and their representation.
c) If A didn't work it creates hope and emotion amongst an emotional group of people (competative athletes) and then once a snag gets hit pull everything off the table and make the players desperate since their hearts were into playing.

The next move is a take it or leave it approach. No matter how we look at it, this was all good for the negotiation. Something will get worked out through this process even if their will be contention.

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12-06-2012, 07:18 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by HockeyCA View Post
The Players made a counter-offer. They agreed to pretty much everything the NHL put on the table, except for length of the contract limit, 8 instead of the proposed 5. The NHL responds to this by pulling everything off the table, ending negotiations, with no end in sight... Yet, somehow, it's all the Players fault? Please, the PA obviously sent over a counter-offer, and they thought they would be able negotiate the 5 year term... The NHL's response was to kill the negotiations entirely. Both sides are being completely unreasonable, and neither side truly cares about the fans in all of this. That's the cold heart truth.
I understand what's going on... That wasn't my question. I just want to know why people are still supportive of the PA?


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12-06-2012, 07:21 PM
  #354
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This is what bugs me the most. I have no clue why there are a small group of people that still are supportive of the PA.

Both sides have to bend but the PA wants a bigger piece of pie. I'm no expert on this whole thing. I just want hockey back and I know this entire collective bargaining is very difficult to absorb.
It has nothing to do with a bigger piece of the pie.

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12-06-2012, 07:23 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by DaAnimal View Post
I understand what's going on... That wasn't my question. I just want to know why people are still supportive of the PA?

I am assuming that your trying to imply that the players are being completely unreasonable.. My point is the NHL has now decided to totally blow up talks, when both sides will admit that they were indeed very close to an agreement. Would you characterize those actions as reasonable.. Further, this is obviously being done by the league as a negotiating strategy to squeeze even more out of the Union, because I still find it hard to believe that they would honestly inflict the MASSIVE potential damage that would come with canceling another year. Thus, if your argument is that the Players are being greedy, well I would say the facts do not certainly favor your position, as the only concessions that have been made during this entire negotiation has come from only one side.

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12-06-2012, 07:24 PM
  #356
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It has nothing to do with a bigger piece of the pie.
It's quite the opposite. The Players have already accepted a smaller piece. A significantly smaller piece. This is all about the owners trying to get the biggest piece it can.

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12-06-2012, 07:29 PM
  #357
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TSN; Bettman and Daly flat out LIVID during the press conference !

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12-06-2012, 07:34 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by no name View Post
Verbal blunders for one would be insinuating the league is profitable. Record revenue is a trick wording in an attempt to make the NHL sound more desrable than it actually is. No other sport says this and they really are making money. Now the NHLPA has made a point to call him on it knowing it's false, but using that as a way to get the media on their side.

GB has a history of sparring with players verbally. From Kelly Hrudey in the past to this year having multiple verbal spats with players in these processes.

As for the last part, read the whole aura of my post. You are piecing words together and blowing the context out of whack. The whole post was about GB doing exactly what he was asked to do. He was hired to be an assasin (that is a business term). GB was hired because of his business reputation and he has filled it to a T. Now, I believe the owners will now let him go (or sacrafice him) in an attempt to win back the fans. They will serve him up as the first step in making good with the fans and building their partnership back with the players. Since it can't be argued that both the players and the fans despise the guy this would be the best PR move that they can do.
Revenues are $ facts, as are costs... Every league talks revenus during their seasons. The Beer deal and the NBC TV deal were aditional revenues. The other things are based on Jersey sales etc... And thus far no one denied the numbers Bettman announced - the revenue pie for last season was a little over 3 billion USD.

How long is now Hrudey retired? I don't think Bettman mentioned any player in these negotiations and there were no public verbal spats this negotiations...

I see Fehr being gone way before Bettman...

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12-06-2012, 07:37 PM
  #359
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I just don't get it... They seemed like they were really close and in my understanding basically only differed on the maximum length of a contract (5 vs 8 with option to extend) and length of CBA (10 or 8 vs 6), and instead of making a final push towards ending this WHEN IT IS SO CLOSE, they chose to just blow the whole damn thing up. They agreed on the economics! And this, THIS, is what's gonna cancel the season? Because that's what's gonna happen if Bettman is serious about taking the "make whole" concept off the table entirely. No way the NHLPA will accept anything less now.

It's just such a god damn waste.

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12-06-2012, 07:46 PM
  #360
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Daly: "Almost incomprehensible" that Fehr said the two sides are close to an agreement.

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12-06-2012, 07:48 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by BigBrown View Post
I just don't get it... They seemed like they were really close and in my understanding basically only differed on the maximum length of a contract (5 vs 8 with option to extend) and length of CBA (10 or 8 vs 6), and instead of making a final push towards ending this WHEN IT IS SO CLOSE, they chose to just blow the whole damn thing up. They agreed on the economics! And this, THIS, is what's gonna cancel the season? Because that's what's gonna happen if Bettman is serious about taking the "make whole" concept off the table entirely. No way the NHLPA will accept anything less now.

It's just such a god damn waste.
The league (incl. 4 new owners) offered 300mio$ make whole if the new CBA length would be 10 years (After 8 years both sides can optional cancel the CBA). Fehr came back with 300mio$ on 6 year CBA.
Owners got pissed (two of the most profitable GMs in hockey walked out of the meeting - Leafs, Pens)...rest is history on twitter.

And the make whole is off the table as was the NHL proposal...

The 4 new owners expressed their thoughts here.

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12-06-2012, 07:55 PM
  #362
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[QUOTE=Minor Boarding;56319861]Revenues are $ facts, as are costs... Every league talks revenus during their seasons. The Beer deal and the NBC TV deal were aditional revenues. The other things are based on Jersey sales etc... And thus far no one denied the numbers Bettman announced - the revenue pie for last season was a little over 3 billion USD.

[QUOTE]

[MOD]Sure other sports discuss their business when they are required to, but GB paraded to every media outlet that the NHL was benefitting from record revenue. He voluteered that information in order to make everyone believe that the NHL was doing better than it was. It was widely perceived as an orchestrated scheme to make the fans and sponsors believe the league is more desrable than it actually was (IE, GB was doing better than he really is). The first time was in regards to the Yotes losing money. He brought it up several times including when questioned about the NHL's business plan purposely placing a team in ATL. When ATL moved to WIN and the value of their franchise changed from 70 million to 200 million according to Forbes.

Lebrun even said in one of his columns that comments like that are one of the differences between better businesses like the NFL and the NHL. LeBrun specifically said that that will be an issue at the end of the labor agreement. He volunteered this and manipulated what it meant.


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12-06-2012, 07:55 PM
  #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minor Boarding View Post
The league (incl. 4 new owners) offered 300mio$ make whole if the new CBA length would be 10 years (After 8 years both sides can optional cancel the CBA). Fehr came back with 300mio$ on 6 year CBA.
Owners got pissed (two of the most profitable GMs in hockey walked out of the meeting - Leafs, Pens)...rest is history on twitter.

And the make whole is off the table as was the NHL proposal...

The 4 new owners expressed their thoughts here.
I believe it was Mark Chipman (Jets owner) and Tanenbaum (Leafs Owner) that walked out on the discussions...which is pretty upsetting since those are arguably the two most motivated owners in the league towards getting a deal done...

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12-06-2012, 08:08 PM
  #364
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I believe it was Mark Chipman (Jets owner) and Tanenbaum (Leafs Owner) that walked out on the discussions...which is pretty upsetting since those are arguably the two most motivated owners in the league towards getting a deal done...
Yeah, those are two important bullets. They made the most money last year and have been huge in encouraging the rest of the owners to play the game.

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12-06-2012, 08:16 PM
  #365
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People are missing that the moderate owners were able to convince the rich owners to fund more into the "make whole" provision. The rich owners only agreed to this if they got the 10 year CBA (out option at 8) and 5 year term limits. Those were not negotiable in order to get the increased "make whole" dollars. The NHLPA decided to take the $300 million and then counter propose the terms for accepting the $300 million.

Some are surprised that the owners were pissed? The NHLPA just lost the support of the one owner that stands to lose the most money from a canceled season. The NHLPA is screwed unless they can somehow win in the courtroom when they decertify.

Quote:
Larry Tanenbaum, Chairman of the Board, Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment

"I was pleased to be asked to join the Player/Owner negotiation sessions. I had hoped that my perspective both as a businessman and as one of the owners of the Toronto Maple Leafs would be helpful to the process. Like all other teams, this work stoppage has hurt our fans, our employees and our business. Neither the owners nor the players will ever recover the losses incurred with this work stoppage.

I understand how important it is to have a strong league and 30 healthy teams. I must admit that I was shocked at how things have played out over the last 48 hours. The sessions on Tuesday felt cooperative with an air of goodwill. I was optimistic and conveyed my optimism to the Board of Governors at our Wednesday meeting. However, when we reconvened with the players on Wednesday afternoon, it was like someone had thrown a switch. The atmosphere had completely changed. Nevertheless, the owners tried to push forward and made a number of concessions and proposals, which were not well-received. I question whether the union is interested in making an agreement.

I am very disappointed and disillusioned. Had I not experienced this process myself, I might not have believed it. Like all hockey fans, I am hopeful this situation can be resolved as soon as possible. I miss our game."

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12-06-2012, 08:40 PM
  #366
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Russo said it best. @Russostrib: I don't like how Don Fehr strutted in front of the cameras with a BS "it's over" message tonight. Played with fans heartstrings. It's shameful.

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12-06-2012, 08:50 PM
  #367
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If anyone read Adater's tweet...a deep inside player source said that the players were rdy to play until Don came in Wednesday night and told them to holdout for more...

adater ‏@adater
This depth player is wicked smart though. May put his name to comments soon. Sorry for anonymous tilt to this. not my style
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More
4m adater ‏@adater
....privately, they are feeling powerless as the Ryan Millers and Brad Richards of the world pretend this is a sacrifice for them
Expand
5m adater ‏@adater
Bottom line here: Players say they are unified, but not what I'm hearing from this depth player. They'll deny that publicly, but...

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12-06-2012, 08:51 PM
  #368
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adater ‏@adater

From deep inside players side: "We were ready to play again. But Don came in (Wed.) and told us we could get more and to hold out"
Not surprised at all.

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12-06-2012, 09:04 PM
  #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyros View Post
If anyone read Adater's tweet...a deep inside player source said that the players were rdy to play until Don came in Wednesday night and told them to holdout for more...

adater ‏@adater
This depth player is wicked smart though. May put his name to comments soon. Sorry for anonymous tilt to this. not my style
First person I think of that matches that description is Westie...

Regarding the rumor itself, the players really need to vote on this and see where they stand. I get the feeling that Don has surrounded himself with a large group of hardline players that are the player reps for their teams...

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12-06-2012, 09:06 PM
  #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyros View Post
If anyone read Adater's tweet...a deep inside player source said that the players were rdy to play until Don came in Wednesday night and told them to holdout for more...

adater ‏@adater
This depth player is wicked smart though. May put his name to comments soon. Sorry for anonymous tilt to this. not my style
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More
4m adater ‏@adater
....privately, they are feeling powerless as the Ryan Millers and Brad Richards of the world pretend this is a sacrifice for them
Expand
5m adater ‏@adater
Bottom line here: Players say they are unified, but not what I'm hearing from this depth player. They'll deny that publicly, but...
This sounds like BS. This man probably read the comments of the Jets owner and drummed up an anonomous source. This is one of th emajor reasons why this CBA is hurting the feelings of the fans. All of this twitter from people who most of the time have no qualifications and rarely even graduated anything more than high school or a CC.

I mean, it would make a ton of sense, but we should never take this stuff as fact.

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12-06-2012, 09:12 PM
  #371
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Ron Burkle walked out of the meetings? That isnt good cuz he's Straight Outta Claremont! But really, if there is a bleeding heart amongst the owners, he is it.

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12-06-2012, 09:14 PM
  #372
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This sounds like BS. This man probably read the comments of the Jets owner and drummed up an anonomous source. This is one of th emajor reasons why this CBA is hurting the feelings of the fans. All of this twitter from people who most of the time have no qualifications and rarely even graduated anything more than high school or a CC.

I mean, it would make a ton of sense, but we should never take this stuff as fact.
Adater is a regular columnist for the Denver Post, SI.com and covers the Avs. I'm sure he has more than a HS diploma and has connections with a few players, like other columnists.

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12-06-2012, 09:25 PM
  #373
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Ok this Bettman presser is so good! The man is visibly shaking with anger as he just runs down the list of things the league has moved on. My respect for him is rising from out right hate to maybe moderate dislike as I watch it... At least you can tell he cares about what's happening and is just on the verge of going off on the PA and the Fehrs.

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12-06-2012, 09:25 PM
  #374
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Adater is a regular columnist for the Denver Post, SI.com and covers the Avs. I'm sure he has more than a HS diploma and has connections with a few players, like other columnists.
I wasn't pinpointing him. I'm pointing out the 8000 people covering the story from their moms basements. Everyone has the urge to outstory and be the first to cover something. Too much information. Too much bad info along with that.

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12-06-2012, 10:58 PM
  #375
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Full Bettman statement.

The guy is shaking with anger and is very upset. This is really all on D. Fehr at this point in time.

http://watch.tsn.ca/clip820675#clip822014

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