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Off-Season Madness the 9th: Tom Cheek Memorial Edition

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Old
12-06-2012, 07:18 PM
  #201
The Nemesis
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Yeah, Cy Youngs aren't anything special, we need prospects yo
Yep. Let's just throw assets at a guy foolishly. Who cares what the prospects might be worth. they're not major leaguers and they don't have a cy young.

I'm not on board with giving up premiere pieces in the system, pieces this team is going to need in short order and that are in short supply league-wide (the league isn't brimming with solid all-around catchers or elite defensive and baserunning CFs) for a 37/38 year old pitcher who, no matter what is in his repetoire, may have as few as 2-4 years left in his career and who knows how many years at peak production (and no guarantee that peak production is him repeating his 2012 season given that it was a noticeable spike in performance compared to previous years)

People are acting like because he throws a knuckler that Dickey will be able to pitch until he's 43-45 without incident and without the dropoff that you usually see in other pitchers as they age. Tim Wakefield fell apart in his last 3ish years in the league.

If I'm Alex Anthopoulos, I'm not moving d'Arnaud for Dickey. It's not worth it. I'm hesitant to move Gose for Dickey unless there's something else of value included that value can contribute to. I get that people who don't follow or care about prospects don't hold value in them because they're not on the major league field, but it's foolhardy to be so cavalier with them just because they mean nothing now. Saving prospects from making shortsighted deals is what let this team do something like make the Marlins deal.

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Old
12-06-2012, 07:20 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Bjindaho View Post
He has .3 higher WAR than Marcum in 2 more seasons. He was the 6th best SP in the NL in WAR last year. He was 5th best in xFIP. It's not like we'd be acquiring prime Roy Halladay here.
of course not, and it's not like we'd be paying the price for roy halladay in his prime. we'd literally be paying 1/3rd of it...less, actually (the smallest chip in that trade)


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Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
Yep. Let's just throw assets at a guy foolishly. Who cares what the prospects might be worth. they're not major leaguers and they don't have a cy young.

I'm not on board with giving up premiere pieces in the system, pieces this team is going to need in short order and that are in short supply league-wide (the league isn't brimming with solid all-around catchers or elite defensive and baserunning CFs)

If I'm Alex Anthopoulos, I'm not moving d'Arnaud for Dickey. It's not worth it. I'm hesitant to move Gose for Dickey unless there's something else of value included that value can contribute to.

I agree and even said TDA was off limits for my taste.

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12-06-2012, 07:24 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
Yep. Let's just throw assets at a guy foolishly. Who cares what the prospects might be worth. they're not major leaguers and they don't have a cy young.

I'm not on board with giving up premiere pieces in the system, pieces this team is going to need in short order and that are in short supply league-wide (the league isn't brimming with solid all-around catchers or elite defensive and baserunning CFs) for a 37/38 year old pitcher who, no matter what is in his repetoire, may have as few as 2-4 years left in his career and who knows how many years at peak production (and no guarantee that peak production is him repeating his 2012 season given that it was a noticeable spike in performance compared to previous years)

People are acting like because he throws a knuckler that Dickey will be able to pitch until he's 43-45 without incident and without the dropoff that you usually see in other pitchers as they age. Tim Wakefield fell apart in his last 3ish years in the league.

If I'm Alex Anthopoulos, I'm not moving d'Arnaud for Dickey. It's not worth it. I'm hesitant to move Gose for Dickey unless there's something else of value included that value can contribute to. I get that people who don't follow or care about prospects don't hold value in them because they're not on the major league field, but it's foolhardy to be so cavalier with them just because they mean nothing now. Saving prospects from making shortsighted deals is what let this team do something like make the Marlins deal.
I'll be the first to admit I don't have a wealth of knowledge about Dickey. I do however know that Gose is a great young prospect with high potential. I agree with everything you posted. Dickey is older and that is a concern. If the Jays had of made the playoffs last year and were in contention then maybe you make this move to give your team the final push. Bottom line, this Blue Jays team is still unproven (albeit they look fan-freakin-tastic on paper), but Gose for Dickey just doesn't make sense until the Jays make that jump to the post season.

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12-06-2012, 07:26 PM
  #204
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Anybody who would do D'Arnaud for Dickey is foolish. We're not dealing for a 30 year old ace. The guy is 38. 38! Just won a Cy Young but how much longer can he play and most importantly, at an elite level?

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12-06-2012, 07:29 PM
  #205
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I'd have no problems dealing Gose if I was more sold on Ramus being a very good player year in year out. I have no doubt he can put up a decent season here or there but just doesnt seem like the type who you can count on for solid to good seasons year in year out.

It would suck to trade Gose, then have Rasmus flop and go from having 3 potential above average CF'ers in Rasmus, Gose and Marisnick to 0.

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12-06-2012, 07:29 PM
  #206
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Well not now obviously. When he gets older though it's not out of the realm of possibilities to have him switch to 1b/dh duties allowing a younger more athletic fielder to play right. That's way down the road though.
It could happen sooner rather than later.

Gose will likely have a spot in 2014, and Melky will still be kicking for another year, so the best bet would be to move the oldest player (Bautista) to 1st/DH and allow him to remain healthy and productive for a prolonged period of time.

He'll be what, 33? How many 33 year olds roam around RF? Aside from whomever the Yankees put there (let's face it, every one of their positions has a person in their 30s ), there is very few players that field the position at that age.

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12-06-2012, 07:29 PM
  #207
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I won't trade D'Arnaud for him but...

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Originally Posted by mapes View Post
Anybody who would do D'Arnaud for Dickey is foolish. We're not dealing for a 30 year old ace. The guy is 38. 38! Just won a Cy Young but how much longer can he play and most importantly, at an elite level?
Strictly devil's advocate:

say he plays elite for the 2-3 years we sign him for. We currently have a 2-3 year window of our players being in their prime and under current contracts, ideally (melky, bautista, johnson, EE, beuhrle, reyes, etc.)

Is it worth it to maximize our potential from here until 2015?

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12-06-2012, 07:39 PM
  #208
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But you're guessing. I really like Dickey but at MOST you get 2 solid years out of him. Not worth your top prospect who has been compared to Buster Posey.

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12-06-2012, 08:04 PM
  #209
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What about going after The Freak?

Sure he had major issues last year, but he could be the perfect "buy low" type acquisition.

IF he ever were to return to his old form it would be beyond a homerun.

IF he doesn't he looked decent out of the bullpen from what I saw in the post season.

Would SF still want a huge price for him? OR as I mentioned could Alex buy low and score a deal?

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12-06-2012, 08:09 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
What about going after The Freak?

Sure he had major issues last year, but he could be the perfect "buy low" type acquisition.

IF he ever were to return to his old form it would be beyond a homerun.

IF he doesn't he looked decent out of the bullpen from what I saw in the post season.

Would SF still want a huge price for him? OR as I mentioned could Alex buy low and score a deal?
It's too big an "if" from my perspective given what the Giants are likely to want. He's been quietly losing his stuff for a couple years now, it was just that last year was the one where it really came back to bite him. His crazy NASA-engineered delivery might have gotten max velocity/effectiveness out of him, but in the end his tiny frame just can't handle all the stress of throwing as forcefully as he does.

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12-06-2012, 08:10 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
Strictly devil's advocate:

say he plays elite for the 2-3 years we sign him for. We currently have a 2-3 year window of our players being in their prime and under current contracts, ideally (melky, bautista, johnson, EE, beuhrle, reyes, etc.)

Is it worth it to maximize our potential from here until 2015?
My counter point would be that it's not AAs prerogative to stack up and take three cracks at this thing. If that was the case he would have convinced Rogers to pony up the $$$ three years ago when he took over and still had Halladay etc.

He took us through three years of ****** baseball while he made our farm the best in baseball. And I don't think he went through those 3 yrs just to have 3 good ones.

This team is poised to not only have 3 good years but many more after that. We've got young pieces surrounded by big money stars, and the hope is once those stars are done those young pieces take most of that money and we bring our new young pieces through the system.

I don't really wanna strikeout on the WS 3x trade our stars and have to go through this whole thing again. We've got some prospects that are 2-3 years away... Let's ride the wave and become a dynasty

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Old
12-06-2012, 08:18 PM
  #212
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hmm... saw it on the tsn ticker with youklis signing in ny
but all i see on the net are the 'offered 1yr' rumours

this could be the sox trade (7hrs ago
Sox trade Rule 5 Draft pick to Tigers for minor league outfielder justin henry

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12-06-2012, 08:28 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Eyedea View Post
It could happen sooner rather than later.

Gose will likely have a spot in 2014, and Melky will still be kicking for another year, so the best bet would be to move the oldest player (Bautista) to 1st/DH and allow him to remain healthy and productive for a prolonged period of time.

He'll be what, 33? How many 33 year olds roam around RF? Aside from whomever the Yankees put there (let's face it, every one of their positions has a person in their 30s ), there is very few players that field the position at that age.
I think he will be 34-35 in 2014.

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12-06-2012, 08:29 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
hmm... saw it on the tsn ticker with youklis signing in ny
but all i see on the net are the 'offered 1yr' rumours

this could be the sox trade (7hrs ago
Sox trade Rule 5 Draft pick to Tigers for minor league outfielder justin henry
Youk hasn't signed with the Yankees. The Indians have offered him a 2 year deal and my guess is that he will join Francona in Cleveland.

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12-06-2012, 08:30 PM
  #215
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Johnson in the Jays gear!

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12-06-2012, 08:31 PM
  #216
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It's too big an "if" from my perspective given what the Giants are likely to want. He's been quietly losing his stuff for a couple years now, it was just that last year was the one where it really came back to bite him. His crazy NASA-engineered delivery might have gotten max velocity/effectiveness out of him, but in the end his tiny frame just can't handle all the stress of throwing as forcefully as he does.
And hes signed for 22 million next year, pass.

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12-06-2012, 08:33 PM
  #217
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Youk hasn't signed with the Yankees. The Indians have offered him a 2 year deal and my guess is that he will join Francona in Cleveland.
i'll take you word for it

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12-06-2012, 08:35 PM
  #218
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So we signed this Claudio Vargas guy, I don't really remember him much all I know is I'm pretty sure he retired in 2011

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12-06-2012, 08:43 PM
  #219
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The Blue Jays and the Rangers are involved in the talks for Dickey, Heyman tweets. Toronto is thought to be unlikely to part with Travis D'Arnaud but may be willing to trade Anthony Gose.

this sounds bogus

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12-06-2012, 08:44 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
hmm... saw it on the tsn ticker with youklis signing in ny
but all i see on the net are the 'offered 1yr' rumours

this could be the sox trade (7hrs ago
Sox trade Rule 5 Draft pick to Tigers for minor league outfielder justin henry
Ticker never said he signed. It only said there was an offer on the table from the Yankees. I saw it repeatedly throughout Sportscentre and the That's Hockey lockout coverage.

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12-06-2012, 08:46 PM
  #221
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The Blue Jays and the Rangers are involved in the talks for Dickey, Heyman tweets. Toronto is thought to be unlikely to part with Travis D'Arnaud but may be willing to trade Anthony Gose.

this sounds bogus
Sounds like pure speculation.

Talks may include such conversations as:

AA: How much for Dicky?

Sandy Alderson: D'arnaud

*click*

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12-06-2012, 08:46 PM
  #222
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So whats the deal with the guys AA selected in the rule 5 draft today?

I know guys picked in the first part have to stay on the 40 man roster or they will be sent back to their original team but what happens to these guys?

Were they picked in a different part of the draft and what is the rules on them?

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12-06-2012, 08:48 PM
  #223
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So whats the deal with the guys AA selected in the rule 5 draft today?

I guys picked in the first part have to stay on the 40 man roster or they will be sent back to their original team but what happens to these guys?
I think it works the same as the MLB phase, just for the lower level. Like the guys picked out of AA have to stay at AAA for the year or they go back to the original team, guys picked out of A have to stay in AA, etc.

I think. Don't quote me on that.

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12-06-2012, 08:49 PM
  #224
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The Blue Jays and the Rangers are involved in the talks for Dickey, Heyman tweets. Toronto is thought to be unlikely to part with Travis D'Arnaud but may be willing to trade Anthony Gose.

this sounds bogus
when do AAs deals ever get this much publicity.

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Old
12-06-2012, 08:51 PM
  #225
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My counter point would be that it's not AAs prerogative to stack up and take three cracks at this thing. If that was the case he would have convinced Rogers to pony up the $$$ three years ago when he took over and still had Halladay etc.

He took us through three years of ****** baseball while he made our farm the best in baseball. And I don't think he went through those 3 yrs just to have 3 good ones.

This team is poised to not only have 3 good years but many more after that. We've got young pieces surrounded by big money stars, and the hope is once those stars are done those young pieces take most of that money and we bring our new young pieces through the system.

I don't really wanna strikeout on the WS 3x trade our stars and have to go through this whole thing again. We've got some prospects that are 2-3 years away... Let's ride the wave and become a dynasty
This. I wouldn't be surprised if AA traded half those guys listed in a few years when their values are about to dwindle to replenish the system (majors and minors).

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