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Meet the worst starting QB in the league, Christian Ponder

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Old
12-06-2012, 06:17 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
No one answered this; what was a) Minnesota suppose to do. The FA market for QBs have been notoriously soft lately and QBs coming from the draft are a) too expensive or b) busts. So should they have kept Donovan McNabb?
Well lets see

Carson Palmer was in retirement (Could have tried to trade for him) , Kyle Orton was on block in Denver (Could have tried to trade for him)

Both of whom could have started in Minny and avoided the entire ponder mess (Orton would have been perfect fit for there run first offense)

Instead they traded for McNabb and drafted Ponder..... Both very bad moves

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12-06-2012, 06:32 PM
  #102
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Trading a 1st and 2nd round pick for Palmer, who looked/looks done, would definitely be better than drafting Ponder.

Trading a 2nd round round pick and giving a new contract to a guy who couldn't beat out Tebow and Cassel is another brilliant suggestion.

Keep them coming....

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12-06-2012, 06:34 PM
  #103
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Palmer is still very good, the Oakland offense is just fundamentally broken with the play caller and all that stuff. Trading a first and second for him though, that's dumb. There was no other option whatsoever, just like there won't be one now unless they decide to sign Smith, and they're not a playoff team with that move either.

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12-06-2012, 06:51 PM
  #104
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I won't fault the Vikings for trying to get a young franchise QB. I will fault the Vikings for thinking Christian Ponder was a franchise QB and using the 12th pick in the draft on him.

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12-06-2012, 07:26 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
No one answered this; what was a) Minnesota suppose to do. The FA market for QBs have been notoriously soft lately and QBs coming from the draft are a) too expensive or b) busts. So should they have kept Donovan McNabb?
They had 2 options:
1. Reach for Ponder or Dalton (obviously chose wrong one here).

Or 2. Pick Fairley/Amukumara/whoever and hope Ponder/Dalton/Kaepernick fell to their 2nd round pick (which none did, although who knows if Ponder would've. Rumors say the Redskins woulda took Ponder at like 16.) And if they didn't we wouldn't have Rudolph.

My opinion was always that the Vikings wanted Jake Locker and when Tennessee took him they panicked. Giving how poorly Childress left the QB position and everyone tired of stop gaps they had no choice but to reach for a QB, it just happened they chose the wrong one/he doesn't look like he'll pan out.

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12-06-2012, 08:21 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by AdmiralsFan24 View Post
I won't fault the Vikings for trying to get a young franchise QB. I will fault the Vikings for thinking Christian Ponder was a franchise QB and using the 12th pick in the draft on him.
yup, I was stunned when I heard he went 12th. Almost as shocking as tebow going in the 1st. I thought Ponder would be a 2nd round pick. Goes to show how QB is such at a premium. Look at the QB's this year, are any of them really worth a top 10 pick?

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12-06-2012, 09:31 PM
  #107
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yup, I was stunned when I heard he went 12th. Almost as shocking as tebow going in the 1st. I thought Ponder would be a 2nd round pick. Goes to show how QB is such at a premium. Look at the QB's this year, are any of them really worth a top 10 pick?
Yes Luck and RG3 come to mind.

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12-06-2012, 09:34 PM
  #108
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He means the upcoming draft. I agree with him. Barkley might be a good NFL QB but he'll be long gone when the Vikings pick, all the guys rated below him stink.

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12-06-2012, 09:48 PM
  #109
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Yes Luck and RG3 come to mind.
Probably not what he meant when he said "this year". As in, the upcoming draft.

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12-06-2012, 10:12 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
No one answered this; what was a) Minnesota suppose to do. The FA market for QBs have been notoriously soft lately and QBs coming from the draft are a) too expensive or b) busts. So should they have kept Donovan McNabb?
Actually, it has been answer several times. You just choose to ignore it. Just go through your own history and look for all the threads you defended Christian Ponder.

For now, Joe Webb has yet to even throw a pass. Might as well see what he can do, as Ponder has been gutter trash for most of the past two months.

As it stands, the reach on Ponder has set the franchise back at least two seasons. With a piss-poor year for QBs coming up, might be until 2014 before we have something worthwhile under center.

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12-06-2012, 10:26 PM
  #111
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Yes Luck and RG3 come to mind.
I am referring to the 2013 draft. Barkley, Wilson, Bray, Smith? How many of them should be top 10 picks as opposed to who will actually go in the top 10 out of necessity for a QB?

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12-06-2012, 10:31 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Well lets see

Carson Palmer was in retirement (Could have tried to trade for him) , Kyle Orton was on block in Denver (Could have tried to trade for him)

Both of whom could have started in Minny and avoided the entire ponder mess (Orton would have been perfect fit for there run first offense)

Instead they traded for McNabb and drafted Ponder..... Both very bad moves
Don't get him started on McNabb. He insisted that Free Agency was cancelled last year and McNabb was definitely going to start for the Redskins... so the Vikings absolutely had to draft a QB 12th overall.

McNabb was a place holder. Trading for him was stupid, waste of a much-needed asset for a rebuilding team. A FA could have been added to fill that same roll (Anderson, Hasselbeck, Matt Moore, etc.) Just to have a vet on the roster who may have to start.

Vikes needed a QB, but shouldn't have wasted the 12th overall pick on a reach. Had they drafted Ponder in the 2nd-3rd (where most expected him to go), then it wouldn't have been such a waste. There wasn't a worthwhile QB on the board at 12, but the Front Office was dead set on drafting a QB with that pick... no matter what the value. Vikes should have went BPA at 12 (they need help... everywhere...), and look to move around the board in the 2nd+ to get a QB worth the pick. Dalton, Kapernick and Mallette were still on the board.

How about this scenario...

Vikes do not reach for a QB in 2011, use the draft to go BPA and replenish the talent pool. Prince Amukamara and Nick Fairley were two of the highest rated still on the board (which would give us one hell of a defensive line or solve our secondary depth issue). Then let's say the Vikes do the right thing and put Peterson on the IR after he was initially hurt, instead of suiting up to tear his ACL/MCL to win a meaningless game against the Redskins.

With that loss, the Vikings would have finished below the Rams, giving us the 2nd overall pick and RGIII would be handing the ball off to an injury-free Adrian Peterson in 2012.

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12-06-2012, 10:33 PM
  #113
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I am referring to the 2013 draft. Barkley, Wilson, Bray, Smith? How many of them should be top 10 picks as opposed to who will actually go in the top 10 out of necessity for a QB?
My bad. 2013 class aint no 2012 class.

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12-06-2012, 10:41 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by iRep TheWingedWheel View Post
They had 2 options:
1. Reach for Ponder or Dalton (obviously chose wrong one here).

Or 2. Pick Fairley/Amukumara/whoever and hope Ponder/Dalton/Kaepernick fell to their 2nd round pick (which none did, although who knows if Ponder would've. Rumors say the Redskins woulda took Ponder at like 16.) And if they didn't we wouldn't have Rudolph.

My opinion was always that the Vikings wanted Jake Locker and when Tennessee took him they panicked. Giving how poorly Childress left the QB position and everyone tired of stop gaps they had no choice but to reach for a QB, it just happened they chose the wrong one/he doesn't look like he'll pan out.
Completely disagree. You are never forced to reach for a QB. It is stupid moves like that which set franchises back for years.

We had crap for QBs entering 2011. Truth is, we had crap pretty much everywhere entering 2012. No matter what players were on the board at 2012, the best player available was virtually guaranteed to be at a position of need (RB the lone exception).

We were/are in rebuild mode and should be looking to upgrade the talent. Not reach for need.

So what if we went into the 2011 season with McNabb and Webb as QBs? Even with the "savior" Ponder we so desperately needed... we still had one of the worst season in franchise history.

Reaching for Ponder solved nothing. Reaches virtually never do (I honestly cannot name an obvious QB reach that actually panned out. Boller, Tebow, Sanchez, Alex, Smith, Losman all busts. Closest thing to a reach that panned out that I can think of is Flacco.

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12-06-2012, 11:43 PM
  #115
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Completely disagree. You are never forced to reach for a QB. It is stupid moves like that which set franchises back for years.

We had crap for QBs entering 2011. Truth is, we had crap pretty much everywhere entering 2012. No matter what players were on the board at 2012, the best player available was virtually guaranteed to be at a position of need (RB the lone exception).

We were/are in rebuild mode and should be looking to upgrade the talent. Not reach for need.

So what if we went into the 2011 season with McNabb and Webb as QBs? Even with the "savior" Ponder we so desperately needed... we still had one of the worst season in franchise history.

Reaching for Ponder solved nothing. Reaches virtually never do (I honestly cannot name an obvious QB reach that actually panned out. Boller, Tebow, Sanchez, Alex, Smith, Losman all busts. Closest thing to a reach that panned out that I can think of is Flacco.
Going with McNabb/Webb in 2011 would have been as big of a waste as 2010 was. They had to take a QB to develop. It just so happens they reached for one and he busted. Like I said I think they wanted Locker and panicked when he went.

In hindsight it ended up being a waste anyway but you had to take a shot with someone whether it was 12th overall or 42nd overall. You didn't know Ponder would be a waste despite his reach status whereas another stop gap (McNabb) with no prospect behind on a terrible team in 2011 woulda definitely been one.


As for the beating the Redskins/Peterson/RG3 thing. Hindsight is 20/20. I doubt we woulda drafted him anyway. Probably woulda traded it just like the Rams did, definitely woulda been nice to get that package though.

The Vikings are at a point where they have to keep drafting QBs until they get one right. (Whether that's this regime or new one eventually.) I'm tired of mediocre veterans and one year wonders who end up choking.


In this year's draft I'd rather them not reach for a QB again, because this QB class blows. Maybe grab a Ryan Nassib or EJ Manuel or someone in the 3rd round and hope they become Russell Wilson.

I really hope they don't do something stupid like get Vick, Kolb, Flynn, Sanchez, Cassel, etc. Maybe I'd take Alex Smith.

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12-07-2012, 01:12 AM
  #116
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Actually, it has been answer several times. You just choose to ignore it. Just go through your own history and look for all the threads you defended Christian Ponder.
And I'll continue to defend the pick because it was the right decision. Dalton had his warts too but Minnesota waited too long to pick a QB. Ponder is like Smith in many ways. Uncertain coaching and for a while, terrible wide receivers.

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For now, Joe Webb has yet to even throw a pass. Might as well see what he can do, as Ponder has been gutter trash for most of the past two months.
Uh. What? Webb has thrown passes. As it stands, he's a poor man's Tim Tebow. He was drafted in the late rounds as a WIDE RECEIVER. He's played 16 games, started 2 and has hasn't looked that great.

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As it stands, the reach on Ponder has set the franchise back at least two seasons. With a piss-poor year for QBs coming up, might be until 2014 before we have something worthwhile under center.
Before Ponder, there weren't very many good years for quarterbacks at all, especially where Minnesota was picking. It'll be interesting to see where Minnesota goes from here.

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McNabb was a place holder. Trading for him was stupid, waste of a much-needed asset for a rebuilding team. A FA could have been added to fill that same roll (Anderson, Hasselbeck, Matt Moore, etc.) Just to have a vet on the roster who may have to start.
Weren't you supportive of the trade for McNabb?

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Vikes needed a QB, but shouldn't have wasted the 12th overall pick on a reach. Had they drafted Ponder in the 2nd-3rd (where most expected him to go), then it wouldn't have been such a waste. There wasn't a worthwhile QB on the board at 12, but the Front Office was dead set on drafting a QB with that pick... no matter what the value. Vikes should have went BPA at 12 (they need help... everywhere...), and look to move around the board in the 2nd+ to get a QB worth the pick. Dalton, Kapernick and Mallette were still on the board.
Mallet was a huge gamble and a huge project. Dalton had his warts (undersize, TCU QB). So did Kaepernik as he came from a non-traditional school and probably and did sit for a bit.

How about this scenario...

Quote:
Vikes do not reach for a QB in 2011, use the draft to go BPA and replenish the talent pool. Prince Amukamara and Nick Fairley were two of the highest rated still on the board (which would give us one hell of a defensive line or solve our secondary depth issue).
Both Prince and Fairley have done very little right now in the NFL. Hell wasn't Prince out for an entire season?

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Then let's say the Vikes do the right thing and put Peterson on the IR after he was initially hurt, instead of suiting up to tear his ACL/MCL to win a meaningless game against the Redskins.
Peterson wanted to play that game. I've always been against using Peterson in losing situations but he wanted to play.

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With that loss, the Vikings would have finished below the Rams, giving us the 2nd overall pick and RGIII would be handing the ball off to an injury-free Adrian Peterson in 2012.
And no one blocking RGIII. Instead of grabbing Khalil, we would have probably went with Charlie Johnson at left tackle again. Not only that, we would be missing a guard (all three of our guards are pretty bad). So, RGIII would be scrambling for his life since our line was poor last year.

Not only that but we probably wouldn't have moved up to grab Harrison Smith, who has been a very solid safety, which our defense desperately needed. It would have changed the draft board way, way too much.

Personally, this year was going to be rough but at least we get some pieces to move forward.

The biggest issue last year was fixing the line, which they did. They now have to fix their wide receivers and linebacker position. We can't rely on Percy Harvin as much as we have been.

Before Harvin went out 4 games Ponder threw for over 200 yards 4 games and 1 game where he threw for 300 yards. He had one game afterwards where he threw 200 yards (against Detroit LOL). The problem has been he's been regressing slightly, so the question is, why? And how can we fix it? For a few weeks earlier in the season, Ponder looked actually pretty good and then the wheels starting come off around the Washington game (ironically where the wheels came off last year). We need playmakers at wide receiver because Ponder isn't going to win games but he'll put them in a position to win games if he has the right tools.

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12-07-2012, 01:45 AM
  #117
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I won't fault the Vikings for trying to get a young franchise QB. I will fault the Vikings for thinking Christian Ponder was a franchise QB and using the 12th pick in the draft on him.
It's hard to believe that Ponder went in the first round...while Andy Dalton went in the second round.

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12-07-2012, 01:51 AM
  #118
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It's hard to believe that Ponder went in the first round...while Andy Dalton went in the second round.
Not really. Dalton came from TCU (not a school known for producing QBs). It was a toss up between Ponder, Kaepernick and him. Mind you, he has one of the best offensive coordinators in the game right now teaching him.

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12-07-2012, 02:58 AM
  #119
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Dalton went in the 2nd round because he wasn't great at anything and played in a spread offense. It had nothing to do with TCU not producing QBs in the past, or else the Vikings would have stayed far away from Ponder with all the QB busts that came out of FSU. Ponder did get to play behind a pro-style offense but there was a reason he was only a 2nd or 3rd rounder pre-draft, because the only thing he was great at was getting hurt.

It was a bad panic/reach pick in reaction to Tennessee and Jacksonville doing the same thing.

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12-07-2012, 03:16 AM
  #120
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Dalton went in the 2nd round because he wasn't great at anything and played in a spread offense. It had nothing to do with TCU not producing QBs in the past, or else the Vikings would have stayed far away from Ponder with all the QB busts that came out of FSU. Ponder did get to play behind a pro-style offense but there was a reason he was only a 2nd or 3rd rounder pre-draft, because the only thing he was great at was getting hurt.

It was a bad panic/reach pick in reaction to Tennessee and Jacksonville doing the same thing.
imo it was the Jags wanted Locker and when he went 8th we panicked and traded to get the next available guy in Gabbert, when the now smart move would've been to hold tight and have taken Kerrigan at 16 like everyone expected us to and get a QB in the 2nd

You can't really fault them tho, I still have draft magazines from that year where several had Blaine the top rated QB and IIRC he was the 4th QB taken. Jacksonville prolly thought they were getting a monster steal.

OT and speaking of Ryan Kerrigan, does anyone in DC refer to him as "The King of Blades"? I'm a nerd and I was all ready to give him that nick name in north FLA

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12-07-2012, 03:26 AM
  #121
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Not really. Dalton came from TCU (not a school known for producing QBs). It was a toss up between Ponder, Kaepernick and him. Mind you, he has one of the best offensive coordinators in the game right now teaching him.
Add to the fact getting the top WR in that draft too, AJ Green.

Cincinnati hit the jackpot with those picks.

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12-07-2012, 04:20 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Brad Tolliver View Post
Dalton went in the 2nd round because he wasn't great at anything and played in a spread offense. It had nothing to do with TCU not producing QBs in the past, or else the Vikings would have stayed far away from Ponder with all the QB busts that came out of FSU.
It does play a part. I mean TCU at the time was playing in which conference against which teams?

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Ponder did get to play behind a pro-style offense but there was a reason he was only a 2nd or 3rd rounder pre-draft, because the only thing he was great at was getting hurt.
That's not true. He had a solid college career at Florida State, including one coaching change. He had at least some success with beating South Carolina in the 2010 bowl (an upset) and crushing Wisconsin in 2008.

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It was a bad panic/reach pick in reaction to Tennessee and Jacksonville doing the same thing.
Panic move. But QBs were at a premium. Though Gabbert and Locker were ranked fairly high.

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12-07-2012, 05:16 AM
  #123
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Panic move. But QBs were at a premium. Though Gabbert and Locker were ranked fairly high.
Were? They are and always will be. Look at how many NFL clubs have problems finding stability at that position. They are very hard to find.

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12-07-2012, 05:39 AM
  #124
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Going with McNabb/Webb in 2011 would have been as big of a waste as 2010 was. They had to take a QB to develop. It just so happens they reached for one and he busted. Like I said I think they wanted Locker and panicked when he went.
Agreed with that. Still don't agree we had to draft a QB at 12. Never will.

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Originally Posted by iRep TheWingedWheel View Post
You didn't know Ponder would be a waste despite his reach status whereas another stop gap (McNabb) with no prospect behind on a terrible team in 2011 woulda definitely been one.
We didn't know for certain Ponder would be a waste, but it was a strong probability. Again, we could have waited until 2012 for a QB or drafted one later.

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As for the beating the Redskins/Peterson/RG3 thing. Hindsight is 20/20. I doubt we woulda drafted him anyway. Probably woulda traded it just like the Rams did, definitely woulda been nice to get that package though.
Disagree, we had 2 wins at that point and Peterson was already hurt. Absolutely no reason to put the team's most talented player at risk.

Though I do agree that since we already had Ponder, we wouldn't have gone RG3. I was using that scenario to show why it is such a horrible move to reach for need.

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The Vikings are at a point where they have to keep drafting QBs until they get one right. (Whether that's this regime or new one eventually.) I'm tired of mediocre veterans and one year wonders who end up choking.
Reaching for QBs simply does not work. Better off to go with stop gaps until the situation is addressed that repeat past mistakes. Sometimes those stop gaps become far more than expected (Warren Moon and Randall Cunningham for example).

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In this year's draft I'd rather them not reach for a QB again, because this QB class blows. Maybe grab a Ryan Nassib or EJ Manuel or someone in the 3rd round and hope they become Russell Wilson.
Agreed. Why I said it may take until 2014 to get the situaiton addressed.

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I really hope they don't do something stupid like get Vick, Kolb, Flynn, Sanchez, Cassel, etc. Maybe I'd take Alex Smith.
Depends on the price. I see that whole list as just stop gaps. If they come cheap enough, I am fine with them under center in 2013 while we continue the search for our QB of the future. Put another way, I would be much happier with Kolb on a 1/2 year deal at <4 mil than a 5-year, 25-mil contract for Smith.

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12-07-2012, 05:49 AM
  #125
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It does play a part. I mean TCU at the time was playing in which conference against which teams?
The same conference that didn't stop Alex Smith from getting drafted 1st overall? Did playing for a FCS team stop Baltimore from trading up to draft Joe Flacco too?

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That's not true. He had a solid college career at Florida State, including one coaching change. He had at least some success with beating South Carolina in the 2010 bowl (an upset) and crushing Wisconsin in 2008.
That 2008 Wisconsin team was so bad that it lost to RichRod's 1st year Michigan team. He wasn't great at anything other than getting hurt or else it would be better than just solid, which was way too high of a pick for a player with his skill set.

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