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Jan 6/13: CBA reached to end the Lockout. Rejoice! (Post#783)

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12-06-2012, 08:49 PM
  #126
thecupismine
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Originally Posted by CanadianPirate View Post
Apparently it would be illegal for them to come to an agreement not to sign players. It is collusion. And according to someone on the business forum the reason why they want the five year contracts is an insurance issue. Past five years insurance companies won't insure contracts. When you look at it like that it makes a little more sense. I was completely baffled why they had decided to make such a strict stand on that before. I do agree they are being ridiculous though. By pulling the make whole off the table they have potentially completely wasted all of the momentum they had over the past two weeks.
Good point on the collusion thing, no idea why I didn't think of that. I think my general point though of the owners not being able to control themselves still stands though. If the insurance issue is so big, most teams *shouldn't* (if they are rational) sign players to contracts without the rule in place. The only ones who would be willing to do it are those who think the benefits outweigh the risks (i.e. if it helps you make more money). Does it hurt competitive balance a little bit? Possibly, but I don't know if it hurts it enough to be willing to go for broke over. However, trying to assume anyone involved in this lockout is rational based on what we've seen is, well, irrational I think studying game theory while the lockout has been going has just shown me how ridiculous both sides have been throughout the whole thing. Oh, and Don Fehr pisses me off as well. Advising the players to hold off looks like it just might have blown up completely in his face.

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12-06-2012, 08:50 PM
  #127
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Just watched Bettman's presser. It's on the front page of NHL.com, if anyone's really interested.

I just can't listen to this guy anymore. I'm not happy with the way the PA has handled things either, but how anyone can give Bettman the slightest bit of credibility is beyond me. "We gave this, we gave that, I've never seen these owners so emotional, this offer's now off the table, that offer's now off the table..." it just goes on and on. There's a bunch of stuff about how the warm, fuzzy owners had made another offer, and the mean, nasty players didn't immediately jump for joy and how infuriating it was for them to do that. Guess he forgot the owners have taken every concession the PA has offered, done the same thing and asked for more. Or maybe he really does think it's perfectly fine when his side does it, I don't know.

It's like watching teenagers have a he said/she said e-messaging binge about their breakup on facebook, only on camera.

Seriously wondering why I'm an NHL fan these days.

Also wondering where Aquilini is in all this. If money talks, why the hell will nobody let him say a word?

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Old
12-06-2012, 08:52 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by The Stovepipe Cup View Post
Check out Adrian Dater's latest tweet from the players side. Don Fehr clearly orchestrated the hold up to pinch a bit more out of the deal. Most players were ready to lace up.
Who said it? No name, no credibility.

Fehr isn't the one who pulled stuff off the table, that would be Bettman and daly.
How would people react if the players suggested they're pulling 50/50 off the table?

The NHL has conceded ZERO.

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12-06-2012, 08:55 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I really cannot support the owners in this. I think their stance is ridiculous. At what point does this become exploitative of the players?
?

I don't know how one can support the players.

The NHL has been pretty straight-forward about what they are offering and what they need.

Even Chapman and the owners brought in were surprised and upset about the lack of movement from the players after addressing what the players said their key wants were.

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12-06-2012, 08:56 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by thecupismine View Post
Good point on the collusion thing, no idea why I didn't think of that. I think my general point though of the owners not being able to control themselves still stands though. If the insurance issue is so big, most teams *shouldn't* (if they are rational) sign players to contracts without the rule in place. The only ones who would be willing to do it are those who think the benefits outweigh the risks (i.e. if it helps you make more money). Does it hurt competitive balance a little bit? Possibly, but I don't know if it hurts it enough to be willing to go for broke over. However, trying to assume anyone involved in this lockout is rational based on what we've seen is, well, irrational I think studying game theory while the lockout has been going has just shown me how ridiculous both sides have been throughout the whole thing. Oh, and Don Fehr pisses me off as well. Advising the players to hold off looks like it just might have blown up completely in his face.
You mean GMs who go with the market? That's a lot different than the Owners not controlling themselves.

Why don't the players control themselves?

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12-06-2012, 08:59 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
You mean GMs who go with the market? That's a lot different than the Owners not controlling themselves.

Why don't the players control themselves?
GM's still need permission from the owner's to sign players to big contracts; I highly doubt if an owner goes to his GM and tells him that he can't sign a player beyond 5 years that the GM will refuse to listen.

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12-06-2012, 08:59 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
?

I don't know how one can support the players.

The NHL has been pretty straight-forward about what they are offering and what they need.

Even Chapman and the owners brought in were surprised and upset about the lack of movement from the players after addressing what the players said their key wants were.
Eight years ago the owners needed the system that we operated under for the past several years. How come they need more now? Why was it good enough then but not now? Why should the players have to foot the bill for owners to continue to operate in **** markets?

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12-06-2012, 09:00 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
You mean GMs who go with the market? That's a lot different than the Owners not controlling themselves.

Why don't the players control themselves?
Signing a contract is controlling yourself for a player.

Shea Weber didn't twist Ed snider's arm saying sign me to a 14 year deal.

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12-06-2012, 09:02 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
You mean GMs who go with the market? That's a lot different than the Owners not controlling themselves.

Why don't the players control themselves?
Owners get the final say whether or not to approve a deal. It's not that different.

Players control themselves? LOL.

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Old
12-06-2012, 09:27 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by ProstheticConscience View Post
Also wondering where Aquilini is in all this. If money talks, why the hell will nobody let him say a word?
He's a new kid on the block who barely has any involvement with his team outside of signing cheques. He isn't going to be a guy to 'take a stand'.

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12-06-2012, 09:28 PM
  #136
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Agreed. Neither side has clean hands in this but the owners are even more disingenuous than Fehr (and he's been pretty disingenuous).
Disagree. Both are cut from the same cloth. Fehr has a point to prove. He has also turned this into a vendetta for the players when it should be business (the reported cherry-picking to get back for the owners for the last CBA). He appears to pushing against development right now. Not that Betman's exploding offers help any.

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12-06-2012, 09:31 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by thecupismine View Post
Good point on the collusion thing, no idea why I didn't think of that. I think my general point though of the owners not being able to control themselves still stands though. If the insurance issue is so big, most teams *shouldn't* (if they are rational) sign players to contracts without the rule in place. The only ones who would be willing to do it are those who think the benefits outweigh the risks (i.e. if it helps you make more money). Does it hurt competitive balance a little bit? Possibly, but I don't know if it hurts it enough to be willing to go for broke over. However, trying to assume anyone involved in this lockout is rational based on what we've seen is, well, irrational I think studying game theory while the lockout has been going has just shown me how ridiculous both sides have been throughout the whole thing. Oh, and Don Fehr pisses me off as well. Advising the players to hold off looks like it just might have blown up completely in his face.
Game theory doesn't always hold up in the real world.

May want to check out other theories around the block, Prospect Theory is an interesting one regarding behavioural economics (brings in human (ir)rationality into the system a bit better)...:

Quote:
The theory says that people make decisions based on the potential value of losses and gains rather than the final outcome, and that people evaluate these losses and gains using interesting heuristics.

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Old
12-06-2012, 09:42 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by The Stovepipe Cup View Post
Game theory doesn't always hold up in the real world.

May want to check out other theories around the block, Prospect Theory is an interesting one regarding behavioural economics (brings in human (ir)rationality into the system a bit better)...:
Oh for sure, like every way of analyzing things, game theory definitely has its shortcomings. I just used it here to show that the owners and players are being completely irrational so long as the only thing they're looking at is money (that includes things like contracting rights as well). Egos and other things are getting in the way of a deal at this point.

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12-06-2012, 09:43 PM
  #139
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It's good to know 50/50, make whole and revenue sharing were just side issues in this lockout. It's all about the 10 year CBA!

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12-06-2012, 09:47 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Eight years ago the owners needed the system that we operated under for the past several years. How come they need more now? Why was it good enough then but not now? Why should the players have to foot the bill for owners to continue to operate in **** markets?
Because the league is not completely stable and there are multiple circumvention methods that cause imbalances in the league.

Why in the world would the players get a say in where the owners' decide to place a team?

Last lockout the players were apparently obliterated, but revenues grew like never before and the players made waaaaaaaay more money than ever before.

I agree with the league that if the teams are more stable the revenues will grow further and players salaries will rise faster than if they just continue to meander... same as last lockout.

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12-06-2012, 09:49 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Signing a contract is controlling yourself for a player.

Shea Weber didn't twist Ed snider's arm saying sign me to a 14 year deal.
No but he did sign it knowing full well he would be destroying Nashville one way or another...

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12-06-2012, 09:56 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
No but he did sign it knowing full well he would be destroying Nashville one way or another...
He's not destroying Nashville, he's playing by the rules set out in the agreed upon prior CBA...it's not his fault there are loopholes that GM's/owners exploit...he just gets blamed for saying "sure, I'll take that ridiculous contract you're offering", instead of doing what everyone else would do...you know, saying "NO!" to stupid amounts of money when offered to them freely.

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12-06-2012, 09:56 PM
  #143
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Sportsnet Pacific should try getting broadcast rights for Canucks games from the 90s. I'm sure plenty of people would tune in to watch.

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12-06-2012, 10:03 PM
  #144
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Next stop ladies and gentlemen, is decertification. We might have 1 more negotiating session, but to me it seems like Fehr has been waiting to pull out decertification out of his back pocket, just to see if he can squeeze just a little bit more out of the League. Once this happens, the power will be in the hands of the court, the court will most likely side with the players, and it is going to get messy.

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12-06-2012, 10:08 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by The Stovepipe Cup View Post
No, the sides are still far apart despite what Fehr would like to indicate and what you're referring to.

The NHL was willing to compromise by offering a take it or leave it package where they conceded quite a bit of money in the short-term (which was not well received and what ticked off many of the moderate owners in attendance of the meetings) to achieve what they thought was a sustainable business in the long run.

The NHLPA decided to cherry pick what they liked (and what they were offered as concessions for other topics, but did not reciprocate) and countered with something that would favor them moreso.

So, we're at a stalemate.

PS, Adrian Dater (On the PA side usually, has now turned so you can infer what that means) tweeted this player quote:
Here's my issue with that. As far as I can tell (I really have looked and haven't found anything else) the only thing that they are far apart on is contract length and the length of the cba. It sounds like the players have agreed to everything else but wanted to negotiate those two points. The owners took the players wanting to negotiate on those two things as some great insult. Is there anything else, specifically, they are still far apart on?

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12-06-2012, 10:08 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
No but he did sign it knowing full well he would be destroying Nashville one way or another...
And now he wants to get a reprieve on the contract he signed.

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12-06-2012, 10:28 PM
  #147
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Okay, I really need to stay out of the business board. I swear, if Bettman announced that he had a unicorn farm and was charging for live webcam feeds, 90% of the people in there would breaking out their credit cards and crashing the server.

As pissed as I am right now at the PA, giving with the left hand while taking away with the right is all Bettman and the owners have been doing all along this entire process. Literally the only thing they know how to do is play utterly ruthless hardball without even trying to actually negotiate in good faith and pump out bull**** PR spin. Now that Fehr starts playing that game, he's automatically the devil. Don't get me wrong, I hate that fact that either is playing that game. I hate that there's precisely zero trust and respect between the two sides. And I hate that almost everyone else can't seem to remember that it's never been any other way. It's like they think everything was lovey-dovey carebear time before Fehr came along and everything went to ****.

RRRGH.

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12-06-2012, 10:29 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by ProstheticConscience View Post
Okay, I really need to stay out of the business board. I swear, if Bettman announced that he had a unicorn farm and was charging for live webcam feeds, 90% of the people in there would breaking out their credit cards and crashing the server.

As pissed as I am right now at the PA, giving with the left hand while taking away with the right is all Bettman and the owners have been doing all along this entire process. Literally the only thing they know how to do is play utterly ruthless hardball without even trying to actually negotiate in good faith and pumping out bull**** PR spin. Now that Fehr starts playing that game, he's automatically the devil. Don't get me wrong, I hate that fact that either is playing that game. I hate that there's precisely zero trust and respect between the two sides. And I hate that almost everyone else can't seem to remember that it's never been any other way. It's like they think everything was lovey-dovey carebear time before Fehr came along and everything went to ****.

RRRGH.
People??? More like Sheeple!!! Am I right?

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12-06-2012, 10:38 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Eight years ago the owners needed the system that we operated under for the past several years. How come they need more now? Why was it good enough then but not now? Why should the players have to foot the bill for owners to continue to operate in **** markets?
Because there would be less of them if the owners weren't in those ****** markets.

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12-06-2012, 10:48 PM
  #150
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Take an anti depressant beore you read this: Ken Campbell from The Hockey News.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...n-big-way.html

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