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The Lockout Thread UPD 1/6 - framework of new CBA agreed to

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12-05-2012, 11:56 PM
  #326
Kitten Mittons
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12-06-2012, 01:08 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Nighthock View Post
I am the only person that thinks the NHLPA should be like any other union where the players aren't allowed to work elsewhere while there's a strike? That would certainly up their motivation to get something done ...
Not all unions are like this. In fact I can't think of any that can't work elsewhere. I could do that while part of the United Food Workers Union way back in the day.

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12-06-2012, 11:12 AM
  #328
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Thinking out loud.....

Rumors are that the league wants to get the season going ASAP (say first games 12/20 or so), and go straight through Christmas.

Checking the Tank's calendar, the "How to Train Your Dragon" comes in starting 12/26. Have to wonder how long it takes to set up. Thinking perhaps they have 12/24 & 12/25 reserved for set up (as there is no hockey nominally scheduled for those two days).

So, does not sound like the Sharks will be hosting (home game) on 12/25 (or 12/24). (Actually nothing on the Tank's schedule after 12/20's schedule game through Christmas)

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12-06-2012, 11:23 AM
  #329
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I think you may be getting too optimistic, LS. Reporters are indicating that now the players are making pensions a huge issue, angering moderate owners. Not so much that the moderate owners hate pensions, but that apparently this came out of nowhere after significant progress on make-whole and contracting rights.

Frankly, I'm getting really pissed off at the players right now. All comments from them before this meeting were that they were the ones giving, just because they "gave in" and agreed to a 50/50 revenue split. No, the current division of HRR was entirely unsustainable and had to change.. the players didn't really "give" on that because they knew that was a forced move no matter what. Now they're trying to use that to get the owners to move on everything else. If the players really are thinking about the good of the game (like they've claimed), they'd be fine with a 10 year deal.


Last edited by Eighth Fret: 12-06-2012 at 11:49 AM.
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12-06-2012, 12:01 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Eighth Fret View Post
I think you may be getting too optimistic, LS. Reporters are indicating that now the players are making pensions a huge issue, angering moderate owners. Not so much that the moderate owners hate pensions, but that apparently this came out of nowhere after significant progress on make-whole and contracting rights.

Frankly, I'm getting really pissed off at the players right now. All comments from them before this meeting were that they were the ones giving, just because they "gave in" and agreed to a 50/50 revenue split. No, the current division of HRR was entirely unsustainable and had to change.. the players didn't really "give" on that because they knew that was a forced move no matter what. Now they're trying to use that to get the owners to move on everything else. If the players really are thinking about the good of the game (like they've claimed), they'd be fine with a 10 year deal.

So what have the owners actually given the players?

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12-06-2012, 12:11 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by CBJenga View Post
So what have the owners actually given the players?
They bumped up make-whole to 300 million (which is likely the middle ground NHLPA wanted when they requested 383 mm weeks ago), backed off on changes to free agency eligibility and kept arbitration the same.

Edit: And now the players have requested presence of a federal mediator again. WTF.


Last edited by Eighth Fret: 12-06-2012 at 01:33 PM.
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12-06-2012, 01:55 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Eighth Fret View Post
They bumped up make-whole to 300 million (which is likely the middle ground NHLPA wanted when they requested 383 mm weeks ago), backed off on changes to free agency eligibility and kept arbitration the same.

Edit: And now the players have requested presence of a federal mediator again. WTF.
They're giving back 300M from the 24% paycut they want the players to take. That's not giving them something, that's taking less than they originally wanted.

I want to know what, out of the things that the players wanted from a new CBA, have the owners given them.

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12-06-2012, 03:58 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by CBJenga View Post
They're giving back 300M from the 24% paycut they want the players to take. That's not giving them something, that's taking less than they originally wanted.

I want to know what, out of the things that the players wanted from a new CBA, have the owners given them.
The paycut that has become necessary. Everyone knew it was coming -- owners as well as players. It bothers me when guys like Zach effin' Parise of all people make the claim that the owners/gm's signed these deals in bad faith when I'm sure they (and their agents) lobbied for massive signing bonuses. I mean, Parise is making 25mm of a total 35mm in the first three years in singing bonuses that aren't going to get rolled back one bit. The paycut is a result of the readjustment in revenue split -- a readjustment that both sides knew had to happen.

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12-06-2012, 08:06 PM
  #334
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12-06-2012, 08:26 PM
  #335
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**** NHLPA. Cancel the season, and then cut their salaries 20% in the next CBA. They deserve it.

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12-06-2012, 09:36 PM
  #336
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This is all on Fehr. He saw the league/owners give some, he smelled blood and wanted more. This season is ****ing gone. I'm so ****ing angry at Fehr.. he's been moving the target all along.. first it was revenue sharing, then make whole, then it was contracting rights, then pensions. Say what you want about the League, but they've been up front about the keys issues important to them all along. Fehr meanwhile just strokes his ego while valuable time lapses.


Last edited by Eighth Fret: 12-06-2012 at 09:54 PM.
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12-06-2012, 09:48 PM
  #337
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What's the procedure in firing the union rep?

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12-06-2012, 10:13 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
What's the procedure in firing the union rep?
I'm not sure.

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12-06-2012, 10:20 PM
  #339
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I'm not sure.

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12-06-2012, 10:23 PM
  #340
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hahaha, as long as you don't call me surely

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12-06-2012, 11:13 PM
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eighth Fret View Post
This is all on Fehr. He saw the league/owners give some, he smelled blood and wanted more. This season is ****ing gone. I'm so ****ing angry at Fehr.. he's been moving the target all along.. first it was revenue sharing, then make whole, then it was contracting rights, then pensions. Say what you want about the League, but they've been up front about the keys issues important to them all along. Fehr meanwhile just strokes his ego while valuable time lapses.
I wonder if he gets paid overtime while the league is in lockout

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12-06-2012, 11:21 PM
  #342
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hahaha, as long as you don't call me surely


Both funny movies.

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Old
12-07-2012, 12:25 AM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
What's the procedure in firing the union rep?
I think if enough players ask for it they vote on it?

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12-07-2012, 09:56 AM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Eighth Fret View Post
This is all on Fehr. He saw the league/owners give some, he smelled blood and wanted more. This season is ****ing gone. I'm so ****ing angry at Fehr.. he's been moving the target all along.. first it was revenue sharing, then make whole, then it was contracting rights, then pensions. Say what you want about the League, but they've been up front about the keys issues important to them all along. Fehr meanwhile just strokes his ego while valuable time lapses.
This. The minute his name came up in connection with the NHLPA, a lockout was inevitable. Delaying negotiating was a ploy on his part that failed because he, like many of the players, drastically misread the amount of leverage they have and underestimated the owners' resolve. The sole reason we are going to lose this whole season is Donald Fehr, not Buttman. The fact that the players rejected what was an incredibly fair offer yesterday just shows you how clueless they are and how poorly represented they are right now. For all the talk about the owners' initial low ball offer solidifying the players, yesterday's union response, both in content and the way they did it, appears to have solidified the owners, with even some of the moderates reportedly seriously pissed off at the NHLPA at this point. IMO, unless the players rethink the current proposal and move dramatically towards it by this weekend, this season is over. The rest of the season will be cancelled by the end of next week.

Then the only question will be whether the NHLPA fires Fehr and negotiates toward a 2013/14 season or whether they go nuclear, decertify and the NHL ceases to exist as we know it.

What cracks me up is how stupid the players are being from a purely financial perspective at this point. They are taking the most ridiculously expensive vacations of their lives.

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:01 AM
  #345
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Originally Posted by CBJenga View Post
So what have the owners actually given the players?
I dunno, an offer to make millions of dollars to play a game, one that might be around and healthy 50 years from now if they're able to get the economics right?

You're making the mistake of assuming the players HAD anything the minute the CBA expired. The only thing the players HAVE at this point of 'value' above their skills (which the owners have made their offer for) is the threat of decertification and risky proposition of damages in litigation. And the value of that is very much uncertain.

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12-07-2012, 10:04 AM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Eighth Fret View Post
The paycut that has become necessary. Everyone knew it was coming -- owners as well as players. It bothers me when guys like Zach effin' Parise of all people make the claim that the owners/gm's signed these deals in bad faith when I'm sure they (and their agents) lobbied for massive signing bonuses. I mean, Parise is making 25mm of a total 35mm in the first three years in singing bonuses that aren't going to get rolled back one bit. The paycut is a result of the readjustment in revenue split -- a readjustment that both sides knew had to happen.

Again, what have the owners offered the players that wasn't simply taking less than the original offer?

The NHL keeps making ultimatums and take-it-or-leave-it deals. FFS, they said that bring back the head of the Union would be a deal breaker. You have to be on crack to think that that makes sense. Given how many 6+ year contracts were handed out last off season, calling a 5-year term "the hill they will die on" seems disingenuous to me. Or maybe we should only look at 7+ year contracts, because if 5 years is "the hill they will die on" then I would expect a lost season, and the owners knew that a 6 year deal would actually only be 5.

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12-07-2012, 10:23 AM
  #347
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Old
12-07-2012, 11:49 AM
  #348
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Originally Posted by CBJenga View Post
Again, what have the owners offered the players that wasn't simply taking less than the original offer?

The NHL keeps making ultimatums and take-it-or-leave-it deals. FFS, they said that bring back the head of the Union would be a deal breaker. You have to be on crack to think that that makes sense. Given how many 6+ year contracts were handed out last off season, calling a 5-year term "the hill they will die on" seems disingenuous to me. Or maybe we should only look at 7+ year contracts, because if 5 years is "the hill they will die on" then I would expect a lost season, and the owners knew that a 6 year deal would actually only be 5.
The misconception is that the players are doing all the giving because they proposed a 50/50 split of HRR, which reduced their share under the old CBA. Again, this was not the players "giving".. this was a move that had to happen. You can't claim you've given something when you really haven't.

And as far as the 6+ year contracts are concerned, everyone (including and especially players) knew that with the next CBA salaries would be rolled back, and that we'd likely see the end of long-term cap-circumventing deals. Brad Richards of all people being vocal in these meetings about the issue is a complete joke given how much he's made in the last two years in signing bonus money. And why is contract length so important to the players. I'd be willing to wager that the vast majority of contracts in the league are for less than 7 years -- why trash the season for something that really only affects such a small percentage of players?

This idea that the players were some innocent, naive, bumpkins getting bullied by the big, bad, businessmen owners is ridiculous. The players had legal counsel in the room.

And Don Fehr's comments last night were very dishonest -- if they were really that close to a deal why did he demand the return of a federal mediator? He's been shady all along by not being up-front with what the needs of the players truly are. It's pathetic that we're this far into the process and we still have no clue what the most important issues are for the players. First they said it was honoring existing contracts, so the NHL offered make-whole. Then players said make-whole wasn't enough, so the NHL added another ~100mm. Then players said contracting issues were the key. NHL relented on free agency and arbitration. Then out of nowhere (and on the heels of several stories about retired players being hurt by lack of pension) the players scream pensions is the magic bullet. The league worked with them on pensions, but the players screamed something else.

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12-07-2012, 12:20 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by Eighth Fret View Post
The misconception is that the players are doing all the giving because they proposed a 50/50 split of HRR, which reduced their share under the old CBA. Again, this was not the players "giving".. this was a move that had to happen. You can't claim you've given something when you really haven't.

And as far as the 6+ year contracts are concerned, everyone (including and especially players) knew that with the next CBA salaries would be rolled back, and that we'd likely see the end of long-term cap-circumventing deals. Brad Richards of all people being vocal in these meetings about the issue is a complete joke given how much he's made in the last two years in signing bonus money. And why is contract length so important to the players. I'd be willing to wager that the vast majority of contracts in the league are for less than 7 years -- why trash the season for something that really only affects such a small percentage of players?

This idea that the players were some innocent, naive, bumpkins getting bullied by the big, bad, businessmen owners is ridiculous. The players had legal counsel in the room.

And Don Fehr's comments last night were very dishonest -- if they were really that close to a deal why did he demand the return of a federal mediator? He's been shady all along by not being up-front with what the needs of the players truly are. It's pathetic that we're this far into the process and we still have no clue what the most important issues are for the players. First they said it was honoring existing contracts, so the NHL offered make-whole. Then players said make-whole wasn't enough, so the NHL added another ~100mm. Then players said contracting issues were the key. NHL relented on free agency and arbitration. Then out of nowhere (and on the heels of several stories about retired players being hurt by lack of pension) the players scream pensions is the magic bullet. The league worked with them on pensions, but the players screamed something else.
By the same token though, the owners said something along the lines of "the 50/50 split is the biggest thing we need for the survival of hockey" yet the 5 year contracts is the "hill they will die on". They have been just as disingenuous. It's all a PR campaign, both sides. Why is the contract length so important to the owners? Is it really worth losing a whole season over? If its such an issue, they didn't have to give out the long term contracts. Sharks management managed not to cave. I'm pretty sick of the whole process. Both sides have lied and postured, it's just frustrating not having hockey. I disagree one side is more to blame than another, they're equally at fault here.

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Old
12-07-2012, 12:42 PM
  #350
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I hate everything. Where's the WHA? I don't want to watch any of these ***** when the league does come back, they can all rot in hell. I hope the players get stuck playing for 100k, and I hope the owners are forced to charge 2 bits a ticket.

Also, pensions? Are you freaking kidding me? Drop one of your cool million into a 401K and you'll have more to retire on than I ever will!

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