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Off-Season Madness the 9th: Tom Cheek Memorial Edition

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Old
12-06-2012, 09:53 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
I think it works the same as the MLB phase, just for the lower level. Like the guys picked out of AA have to stay at AAA for the year or they go back to the original team, guys picked out of A have to stay in AA, etc.

I think. Don't quote me on that.
Thanks

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12-06-2012, 10:01 PM
  #227
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Sort of agree with Sokil here, we have about a 3 year window to compete in with many of our players in their primes. I wouldn't go all in trading TDA, Sanchez and Syndergaard for good players, but what does losing Gose + JPA and some B-Level prospect mean if it gives the team a much better chance of winning it all?

AA's managed to assemble a lot of really good prospects, so losing a couple more doesn't really matter especially if in those years you're competing you can draft and develop more without needing to depend on them to perform in the bigs.

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12-06-2012, 10:02 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Leafssss View Post
Sort of agree with Sokil here, we have about a 3 year window to compete in with many of our players in their primes. I wouldn't go all in trading TDA, Sanchez and Syndergaard for good players, but what does losing Gose + JPA and some B-Level prospect mean if it gives the team a much better chance of winning it all?

AA's managed to assemble a lot of really good prospects, so losing a couple more doesn't really matter especially if in those years you're competing you can draft and develop more without needing to depend on them to perform in the bigs.
Or we hold onto them and replenish the talent at the major league level with the next generation of stars and keep that window open for 10 years instead of 3.

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12-06-2012, 10:04 PM
  #229
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My counter point would be that it's not AAs prerogative to stack up and take three cracks at this thing. If that was the case he would have convinced Rogers to pony up the $$$ three years ago when he took over and still had Halladay etc.

He took us through three years of ****** baseball while he made our farm the best in baseball. And I don't think he went through those 3 yrs just to have 3 good ones.

This team is poised to not only have 3 good years but many more after that. We've got young pieces surrounded by big money stars, and the hope is once those stars are done those young pieces take most of that money and we bring our new young pieces through the system.

I don't really wanna strikeout on the WS 3x trade our stars and have to go through this whole thing again. We've got some prospects that are 2-3 years away... Let's ride the wave and become a dynasty
Can't agree more. The players we have that are in their prime will lead the team until players like Lawrie, D'arnaud, Gose, Syndergaard, Sanchez, Hutchinson are ready to take their place. We'll be in the perfect place in one or two years when those kids i just mentioned are coming into their own and the current players will still be in their primes to lead them.

The awesome thing about having the core we do is that as guys get older and younger players move in to take over for them they would be flipped for assets. To ensure the quality keeps coming.

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12-06-2012, 10:10 PM
  #230
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Or we hold onto them and replenish the talent at the major league level with the next generation of stars and keep that window open for 10 years instead of 3.
So we can be a decent playoff team but not a guaranteed contender?

I'd rather pay up and have a better chance at winning then looking back and saying "if only we had this one piece."

Then again, I could also be saying "I wish we didn't trade him," but it's all a guessing game at this point anyway on what should be done (improve or go with the current roster) to win the WS.

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12-06-2012, 10:11 PM
  #231
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So we can be a decent playoff team but not a guaranteed contender?

I'd rather pay up and have a better chance at winning then looking back and saying "if only we had this one piece."

Then again, I could also be saying "I wish we didn't trade him," but it's all a guessing game at this point anyway on what should be done (improve or go with the current roster) to win the WS.
Why can't we still be great? Its not like our prospects will be second rate because they are our prospects.

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12-06-2012, 10:13 PM
  #232
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Why can't we still be great? Its not like our prospects will be second rate because they are our prospects.
We can be great, but can we better than other teams?

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12-06-2012, 10:19 PM
  #233
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Ticker never said he signed. It only said there was an offer on the table from the Yankees. I saw it repeatedly throughout Sportscentre and the That's Hockey lockout coverage.
I still think YOukilis would be a good pick up for the Jays.

1b, 3b, DH.

I know someone earlier said he bats the same hand as EE and it made no sense but he wouldn't be just filling in for EE. He is a clutch hitter and the type of guy I want to see coming up to hit in the 8th innning with 2 on base.

It would allow us to move Lind with no worries. Plus give us a solid bat to fill in for Lawrie if/when needed.

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12-06-2012, 10:22 PM
  #234
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I still think YOukilis would be a good pick up for the Jays.

1b, 3b, DH.

I know someone earlier said he bats the same hand as EE and it made no sense but he wouldn't be just filling in for EE. He is a clutch hitter and the type of guy I want to see coming up to hit in the 8th innning with 2 on base.

It would allow us to move Lind with no worries. Plus give us a solid bat to fill in for Lawrie if/when needed.
If it costs the 12M or 13M the Yankees are apparently willing to pay, I'd rather have that money put into pitching or saved for a better opportunity. Youk ain't the same player he was, he regressed A LOT last year and there's a good chance he's even worse this year.

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12-06-2012, 10:28 PM
  #235
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It's too big an "if" from my perspective given what the Giants are likely to want. He's been quietly losing his stuff for a couple years now, it was just that last year was the one where it really came back to bite him. His crazy NASA-engineered delivery might have gotten max velocity/effectiveness out of him, but in the end his tiny frame just can't handle all the stress of throwing as forcefully as he does.
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And hes signed for 22 million next year, pass.
22 million?

Ya at that price there is no way SF would accept any offer I would be willing to make. As Nemisis said he is too big of an "if" to offer up much, and combined with that salary I would be offering even less. SF would laugh and hang up the phone.

I just still remember him being so dominant. Well, "time goes by" as they say.

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12-06-2012, 10:32 PM
  #236
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If it costs the 12M or 13M the Yankees are apparently willing to pay, I'd rather have that money put into pitching or saved for a better opportunity. Youk ain't the same player he was, he regressed A LOT last year and there's a good chance he's even worse this year.
Not to mention, never healthy

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12-06-2012, 10:32 PM
  #237
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My counter point would be that it's not AAs prerogative to stack up and take three cracks at this thing. If that was the case he would have convinced Rogers to pony up the $$$ three years ago when he took over and still had Halladay etc.

He took us through three years of ****** baseball while he made our farm the best in baseball. And I don't think he went through those 3 yrs just to have 3 good ones.
Well my rebuttal would be it's unlikely AA really foresaw that Bautista would turn into a home run king when we got him for nothing, that EE would follow him up as he has, and that Florida would let 3 major pieces fall into our laps like it was a video game.

We still aren't a big-name free agent destination, and despite the farm we're still not a proven team that can develop all-stars year over year like some clubs. (and with success we won't have the high-end draft picks to aid us)

While he's had a plan, and a good one at that...he's (we've) been extremely lucky - and it's important to capitalize on that luck while the window exists.

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12-06-2012, 10:36 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Leafssss View Post
If it costs the 12M or 13M the Yankees are apparently willing to pay, I'd rather have that money put into pitching or saved for a better opportunity. Youk ain't the same player he was, he regressed A LOT last year and there's a good chance he's even worse this year.
I'm kind of willing to give him a bit of a pass for last year. There was the whole blow up with Valentine or whatever the heck happened there. I don't know if he ever got on track.

But 12M?

Tell him We're the NEW YAnkees and he should take a paycut to play with a winner.

I did hear last night as AA was basically calling the winter meeting a waste of his time, that since the big moves he has had a lot of calls from agents about players coming here.

That could be the nicest ting I've heard someone say about a Toronto franchise in years. Players actually want to come here. Getting excited.

Ofcourse with AA if you hear a rumour it isn't true. So we can only speculate who he was talking about. It was still good to hear.

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12-06-2012, 10:40 PM
  #239
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So we can be a decent playoff team but not a guaranteed contender?

I'd rather pay up and have a better chance at winning then looking back and saying "if only we had this one piece."

Then again, I could also be saying "I wish we didn't trade him," but it's all a guessing game at this point anyway on what should be done (improve or go with the current roster) to win the WS.
There is no difference between a decent playoff team and a guaranteed contender in the playoffs. Go back the last 10 years, and how many of the big favorites actually ended up winning? The playoffs are built off a lot of luck and players getting hot at the right time.

And also, just so people are clear on Dickey, there is no basis to suggest that the Mets only want TDA. For example, there are reports saying the Mets want Myers + from Kansas City. Tampa Bay wants Myers + for Shields/Price, etc. Myers is pretty equal to TDA, I would say.

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12-06-2012, 10:41 PM
  #240
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Well my rebuttal would be it's unlikely AA really foresaw that Bautista would turn into a home run king when we got him for nothing, that EE would follow him up as he has, and that Florida would let 3 major pieces fall into our laps like it was a video game.

We still aren't a big-name free agent destination, and despite the farm we're still not a proven team that can develop all-stars year over year like some clubs. (and with success we won't have the high-end draft picks to aid us)

While he's had a plan, and a good one at that...he's (we've) been extremely lucky - and it's important to capitalize on that luck while the window exists.
He didn't foresee anything sure. But its still part of scouting to scout pro talent, to and try and develope it. Bautista didnt just flick on a switch and find this surge of power, they worked with him to develope his swing to put more hip movement in to get that power.

Right now we dont even know if we have the team we think we have. We have a lot of ifs (Beurhle is pretty much the only one of the four SP we have that we know what we are getting), not a lot of sure things, its better to give a little more patience and see where some of the ifs take us than put all the cards we've worked so long to get into one basket to take our shot now.

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12-06-2012, 10:46 PM
  #241
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Instead of going out and getting Dickey at the expense of our top prospects why dont we just make a play for Niese instead who will cost less. The guy is a solid pitcher, young, has lots of control left and on a crazy good contract the next few seasons. Id rather do that or go sign someone like a Marcum, Jackson or McCarthy then give up a steep trade package for a 38 year old knuckleballer.

Just because we have good prospects left over from the MIA deal doesnt mean we should keep making more prospect for proven player trades and deplete the farm.

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12-06-2012, 10:46 PM
  #242
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There is no difference between a decent playoff team and a guaranteed contender in the playoffs. Go back the last 10 years, and how many of the big favorites actually ended up winning? The playoffs are built off a lot of luck and players getting hot at the right time.

And also, just so people are clear on Dickey, there is no basis to suggest that the Mets only want TDA. For example, there are reports saying the Mets want Myers + from Kansas City. Tampa Bay wants Myers + for Shields/Price, etc. Myers is pretty equal to TDA, I would say.
Of course there's no way of making sure you win the WS, but you can't deny that having a better roster gives you a better chance of winning it.

I've only started following baseball recently so I can't exactly say whether favourites usually win, but I'm sure there are teams that consistently make the playoffs but are never seen as a threat to win it all (sort of like the 2000s Canadiens teams)

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12-06-2012, 10:58 PM
  #243
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Instead of going out and getting Dickey at the expense of our top prospects why dont we just make a play for Niese instead who will cost less. The guy is a solid pitcher, young, has lots of control left and on a crazy good contract the next few seasons. Id rather do that or go sign someone like a Marcum, Jackson or McCarthy then give up a steep trade package for a 38 year old knuckleballer.

Just because we have good prospects left over from the MIA deal doesnt mean we should keep making more prospect for proven player trades and deplete the farm.
I definitely agree.

A guy like John Niese, or Derek Holland would be good for me. Theyd give us the depth we need in our Starting rotation, but also a younger guy who would be more controllable. IMO a deal around Arencibia for Holland would be awesome.

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12-06-2012, 11:01 PM
  #244
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Of course there's no way of making sure you win the WS, but you can't deny that having a better roster gives you a better chance of winning it.

I've only started following baseball recently so I can't exactly say whether favourites usually win, but I'm sure there are teams that consistently make the playoffs but are never seen as a threat to win it all (sort of like the 2000s Canadiens teams)
My point, which works with the NHL as well, is that the team who goes out and makes that big deadline day splash to become favourites to win the Stanley Cup...doesn't work. This doesn't work because of the nature of the playoffs. When some team goes out and gets Dickey, some other team will turn some career minor league pitcher into a star.

I get the sentiment about the Jays really going for it, but what happens if they trade for Dickey and still miss the playoffs? What happens then? This is possible.

I think if anything, the team is in a good position now. Perhaps just add some depth. A fair compromise would be to see where they are at the deadline. You'll get a very good assessment then.

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12-06-2012, 11:13 PM
  #245
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My point, which works with the NHL as well, is that the team who goes out and makes that big deadline day splash to become favourites to win the Stanley Cup...doesn't work. This doesn't work because of the nature of the playoffs. When some team goes out and gets Dickey, some other team will turn some career minor league pitcher into a star.

I get the sentiment about the Jays really going for it, but what happens if they trade for Dickey and still miss the playoffs? What happens then? This is possible.

I think if anything, the team is in a good position now. Perhaps just add some depth. A fair compromise would be to see where they are at the deadline. You'll get a very good assessment then.




Having the better players gives you the better chance at winning. I still think Jays are in a great position to give up some decent prospects (Gose probably being the best, wouldn't want to see Syndergaard/Sanchez/TDA moved) to have a better chance at winning while still maintaining a great farm system (Some teams entire farm systems wouldn't be worth two or three of the Jays top prospects.)

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12-06-2012, 11:13 PM
  #246
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Don't want to lose Gose for any declining player. Let alone one that is 38 years old. Gose has the potential to be something special.
Uh, what?

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12-06-2012, 11:15 PM
  #247
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Yep. Let's just throw assets at a guy foolishly. Who cares what the prospects might be worth. they're not major leaguers and they don't have a cy young.

I'm not on board with giving up premiere pieces in the system, pieces this team is going to need in short order and that are in short supply league-wide (the league isn't brimming with solid all-around catchers or elite defensive and baserunning CFs) for a 37/38 year old pitcher who, no matter what is in his repetoire, may have as few as 2-4 years left in his career and who knows how many years at peak production (and no guarantee that peak production is him repeating his 2012 season given that it was a noticeable spike in performance compared to previous years)

People are acting like because he throws a knuckler that Dickey will be able to pitch until he's 43-45 without incident and without the dropoff that you usually see in other pitchers as they age. Tim Wakefield fell apart in his last 3ish years in the league.

If I'm Alex Anthopoulos, I'm not moving d'Arnaud for Dickey. It's not worth it. I'm hesitant to move Gose for Dickey unless there's something else of value included that value can contribute to. I get that people who don't follow or care about prospects don't hold value in them because they're not on the major league field, but it's foolhardy to be so cavalier with them just because they mean nothing now. Saving prospects from making shortsighted deals is what let this team do something like make the Marlins deal.
Agreed.

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12-06-2012, 11:24 PM
  #248
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So we can be a decent playoff team but not a guaranteed contender?

I'd rather pay up and have a better chance at winning then looking back and saying "if only we had this one piece."

Then again, I could also be saying "I wish we didn't trade him," but it's all a guessing game at this point anyway on what should be done (improve or go with the current roster) to win the WS.
Or in 3 years if we didn't win it all people would be all over how AA should be fired because he burnt all our elite prospects on old men that couldn't perform anymore. I'd rather be in contention for 10 years over a bit of a better chance of winning this year and maybe two more.

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12-06-2012, 11:28 PM
  #249
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Or in 3 years if we didn't win it all people would be all over how AA should be fired because he burnt all our elite prospects on old men that couldn't perform anymore. I'd rather be in contention for 10 years over a bit of a better chance of winning this year and maybe two more.
If you read over some of my other posts I mentioned that Syndergaard/Sanchez/TDA should be off limits (obviously unless an amazing deal comes by) but packaging something like Arencibia+Gose to try and put the team over the top may be worth it. During that time prospects can be drafted and again developed without having to rush them since the major league team is fine at most positions.

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12-06-2012, 11:34 PM
  #250
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If you read over some of my other posts I mentioned that Syndergaard/Sanchez/TDA should be off limits (obviously unless an amazing deal comes by) but packaging something like Arencibia+Gose to try and put the team over the top may be worth it. During that time prospects can be drafted and again developed without having to rush them since the major league team is fine at most positions.
We are very weak in positional prospects as it is and Gose could become a huge part of this team going forward. I'd like to add Dickey but not at that price. Plain and simple. It's very short sighted IMO and I consider Gose part of those prospects that shouldn't be moved unless it's for something special. I don't think Dickey is worth it especially with all the pieces you suggest.

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