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Old
12-07-2012, 12:10 AM
  #26
KingCanadain1976
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Originally Posted by Leafs87 View Post
Not worth giving up IMO. He can really be a good player and alot of leafs fans have no given up on him, and his value is at its lowest. For arguement sake though, I would say a deal around Jon Bernier and Nazem Kadri would entice me (although Im not sure who would be adding and how much, tbh I have watch Bernier but not so much to make a fair evaluation). Another deal that might make sense is trading him for another prospect who is struggling, like mentioned before but I feel like Kadri is worth more then Beach.....

Again that is for argument sake since I believe most leafs fans, self included still see potential and would rather keep him. He isnt too far away from the NHL, very skilled just needs to work on his defensive game and decision making.
I have done alot of talking with leaf fans on the subject of Bernier and if ur talking about kadri for bernier your leaf team is adding a conditional frist. Kadri is closing in bust as a leaf center is he always mention in team trade rumours (meaning to me hes not in future leaf plans.)which lowers his value. Where as Bernier is a good backup and is still a great cheap backup to quick. To me frattin ross or ashton all have more value then Kadri . So my contion on the pick is only top 7 protected not top 9 as with the others.

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12-07-2012, 12:16 AM
  #27
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I have done alot of talking with leaf fans on the subject of Bernier and if ur talking about kadri for bernier your leaf team is adding a conditional frist. Kadri is closing in bust as a leaf center is he always mention in team trade rumours (meaning to me hes not in future leaf plans.)which lowers his value. Where as Bernier is a good backup and is still a great cheap backup to quick. To me frattin ross or ashton all have more value then Kadri . So my contion on the pick is only top 7 protected not top 9 as with the others.
Kadri is not close to busting. I dont think you watched many Marlies games, but he is the main offensive tool on that team. If he can manage the puck better on the defensive side he is NHL ready. Adding a first to Kadri for Bernier even if its protected makes no sense. I dont see Bernier as much of an upgrade over Reimer. On a side note I think he gets thrown into most leafs proposals because most leafs proposals are unrealistic and its usually top end guys like starting goalies and first line centers that are being requested.

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12-07-2012, 12:23 AM
  #28
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Not one of those players make him expandable as they are more energy bottom six guys and he has top six potential. Aside from that, I don't know what you are basing your opinion on when you say they passed him, because IMO the only two more NHL ready bodies on the Marlies right now are Gardiner and Frattin, and a case can be made that Ranger is an NHL player playing in the AHL.


As for Moller and a 3rd... No way
Kadri does have top 6 potential but he in my mind he doesn't have a spot. When they aquired James van Riemsdyk and announced he will play center or try him out That to me signel Kadri isnt in the top 6 anymore. I am by no means a leaf expert but as a outsider i dont see kadri beating out Bozak or Graboski as 1st or 2nd center that leaves him a chance as a winger so lupul and kessel hmm dont see that happening meaning he has to beat out either kuliemin or macAurther and i dont see either of loosing out to him.

So with that said he next falls to 3rd line where to me frattin ross ashton all have better shot to make the team. Kadri's had what 4 chances to make the leafs and he was benched in the ahl Seems to me a player running out of chances.

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12-07-2012, 12:24 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by ottawa View Post
Lol what? Care to expand on that??



Anyways, to answer the OPs question, as a habs fan I'd offer a 2014 mid 1st or later. His development certainly hasn't been the quickest but the way people always make him out to be a bust its so dumb . I enjoy ragging on the leafs as much as the next person but there's no way Kadri can be called a bust based on 50 games (half of them with sheltered minutes). I'm not saying he won't bust but I would certainly give him at least 1-3 seasons before calling him one.
see above post.

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12-07-2012, 12:30 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Leafs87 View Post
Kadri is not close to busting. I dont think you watched many Marlies games, but he is the main offensive tool on that team. If he can manage the puck better on the defensive side he is NHL ready. Adding a first to Kadri for Bernier even if its protected makes no sense. I dont see Bernier as much of an upgrade over Reimer. On a side note I think he gets thrown into most leafs proposals because most leafs proposals are unrealistic and its usually top end guys like starting goalies and first line centers that are being requested.
Imo he is close being called up that much and still not being on the team plus with ur current roster i dont see him beating out anyone. As for bernier not being much of a upgrade thats your opinon and ur intitled to it but a good portion of nhl gm and scouts would disagree. Imo reimer and bernier with a new defensive frist approach ( i m going on a report that the leafs are looking to go more defensive frist.) will put the leafs close to the playoffs.

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12-07-2012, 12:39 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
Kadri does have top 6 potential but he in my mind he doesn't have a spot. When they aquired James van Riemsdyk and announced he will play center or try him out That to me signel Kadri isnt in the top 6 anymore. I am by no means a leaf expert but as a outsider i dont see kadri beating out Bozak or Graboski as 1st or 2nd center that leaves him a chance as a winger so lupul and kessel hmm dont see that happening meaning he has to beat out either kuliemin or macAurther and i dont see either of loosing out to him.

So with that said he next falls to 3rd line where to me frattin ross ashton all have better shot to make the team. Kadri's had what 4 chances to make the leafs and he was benched in the ahl Seems to me a player running out of chances.
JVR playing center was more of rumour/maybe they tried it and didnt work, either way he isnt playing center for us. Kadri plays wing when he is brought up as well. Ideally JVR is still the best second line choice, Although Carlyle likes kadri and used Kulemin in more of a shut down role sine his numbers have decreased. Ideally our lines look somthing like this. I see us playing more of a 3 line offensive game.

Lupul-free agent or trade-Kessel
JVR-Grabovski-Kadri
Kulemin-Bozak-Frattin
Steckel-mcclement-Brown
Orr

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12-07-2012, 12:43 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Leafs87 View Post
JVR playing center was more of rumour/maybe they tried it and didnt work, either way he isnt playing center for us. Kadri plays wing when he is brought up as well. Ideally JVR is still the best second line choice, Although Carlyle likes kadri and used Kulemin in more of a shut down role sine his numbers have decreased. Ideally our lines look somthing like this. I see us playing more of a 3 line offensive game.

Lupul-free agent or trade-Kessel
JVR-Grabovski-Kadri
Kulemin-Bozak-Frattin
Steckel-mcclement-Brown
Orr
Ummm it looks like ur missing MacAurther who will fit in where u have Kadri I was also under the impression he was playing the left side in the ahl . Also how can it not have worked with jvr playing center when he hasnt even played a game as a leaf ????

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12-07-2012, 12:51 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
Ummm it looks like ur missing MacAurther who will fit in where u have Kadri I was also under the impression he was playing the left side in the ahl . Also how can it not have worked with jvr playing center when he hasnt even played a game as a leaf ????
Sorry I meant to mention I see Mac being traded, ideally for a shutdown type d man. JVR as a center was a pipedream to begin with since he was always a winger in the NHL, he doesnt have the vision to be a true number 1, and we are happy with Grabo as number 2. JVR is more of a scoring winger. I think it was tried in practice. The media is huge in Toronto so we hear everything.

Also for your earlier post. I do see scouts seeing Bernier as better since he was taken way ahead of Reimer at 11, but most GM's should view Reimer as the better option. Maybe scouts see something in Bernier that isn't easy for a non scout to pick up on, but his half season as a good starter and starting off last year very strong before being injured should give him the edge.

Also in the AHL Kadri is a center


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12-07-2012, 01:02 AM
  #34
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Ummm it looks like ur missing MacAurther who will fit in where u have Kadri I was also under the impression he was playing the left side in the ahl . Also how can it not have worked with jvr playing center when he hasnt even played a game as a leaf ????
In a semi-recent interview with Burke, he really toned down the notion of JVR at center. Says it was somewhat blown out of proportion. What they meant was they were just guna try some interesting things, including the possibility of JVR at center, as he has played that position at lower levels. I doubt it's anything more than a small stint in preseason before moving back to the wing. Kadri, like JVR played C at lower levels, but will likey be a winger in the NHL.

Kadri has the potential to be a superior player than Mac, also. He will be traded when this happens.

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12-07-2012, 01:05 AM
  #35
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Sorry I meant to mention I see Mac being traded, ideally for a shutdown type d man. JVR as a center was a pipedream to begin with since he was always a winger in the NHL, he doesnt have the vision to be a true number 1, and we are happy with Grabo as number 2. JVR is more of a scoring winger. I think it was tried in practice. The media is huge in Toronto so we hear everything.

Also for your earlier post. I do see scouts seeing Bernier as better since he was taken way ahead of Reimer at 11, but most GM's should view Reimer as the better option. Maybe scouts see something in Bernier that isn't easy for a non scout to pick up on, but his half season as a good starter and starting off last year very strong before being injured should give him the edge.
Well MacAurther plays rw and Kadri if im not mistaken plays lw or at least is playing that in the ahl. If im wrong i take my offer back. I can see him playing the rest of this year in the ahl with the monarches and learning the kings system of more defensive then hes used to now. The kings have a need maybe next year at lw on the second line if they dont resign penner or / gagne. I would be content with letting kadri fight it out with pearson for the spot should they not get a named free agent for it.

Now as for toronto media lol i live in ontario where i have leaf news toss at me more then i can handle. So yes i understand it was more media report Either way him coming to toronto to me signaled Kadris demise.
As for your saying most gms seeing riemer as a better option i can't disagree more. Reimer has had the opportunity to grab the starts job and just hasnt impressed hes has no coinsitantcy to his game part of this was his injury. Bernier puts up better number with regular work which he doesnt get due to Quick being the starter. As far as scouts seeing something in bernier yes they do hes technically sounds and very calm for a goalie all he needs is a chance to play.

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12-07-2012, 01:10 AM
  #36
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JVR as a center was a pipedream to begin with since he was always a winger in the NHL
With the year being cancelled (soon) I would really hope that JVR is working really hard to learn how to play centre. If I was the Leafs brass id be looking to find him a good European home where he can play the rest of the year as a centre just to get a glimpse. (I know they cant send him but they could make a suggestion)
Worse case scenario we learn he cant do it, most likely we see that hes a decent centre but not first line material. Best case scenario we see him play like a true dominant centre.
If overseas doesnt work maybe the ECHL? Going against some level of competition is better than none, and he would be able to practice allot more on fundamentals.
Any ideas where / if he has been training this summer?

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12-07-2012, 01:11 AM
  #37
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Well MacAurther plays rw and Kadri if im not mistaken plays lw or at least is playing that in the ahl. If im wrong i take my offer back. I can see him playing the rest of this year in the ahl with the monarches and learning the kings system of more defensive then hes used to now. The kings have a need maybe next year at lw on the second line if they dont resign penner or / gagne. I would be content with letting kadri fight it out with pearson for the spot should they not get a named free agent for it.

Now as for toronto media lol i live in ontario where i have leaf news toss at me more then i can handle. So yes i understand it was more media report Either way him coming to toronto to me signaled Kadris demise.
As for your saying most gms seeing riemer as a better option i can't disagree more. Reimer has had the opportunity to grab the starts job and just hasnt impressed hes has no coinsitantcy to his game part of this was his injury. Bernier puts up better number with regular work which he doesnt get due to Quick being the starter. As far as scouts seeing something in bernier yes they do hes technically sounds and very calm for a goalie all he needs is a chance to play.
The thing with Kadri is he players center in the AHL, but when brought up he is a lw ideally but can play the rw. Kadri would fit in amazingly with the LA system (playoff one anyways), he is very gritty which he doesnt get enough credit for and can score. Bernier when brought in is a back up and thats far from knowing he is the go to guy, almost like its his time to shine and he prepares extra hard when called apon. Reimer was very consistent his rookie year. Putting up better numbers is very over rated as a back up..... trust me, Raycroft and Toskala had pretty good back up numbers too. Yes Bernier is very technically sound and all but again back to my original point, as a back up. Reimer was technically sound and very good as a starter. Honestly this can go on for every, you watch Bernier more and cheer for LA so Bernier is better to you, and I watched Reimer play more and cheer for the leafs so I see Reimer as better. In the end though they are very close

Also Mac is a LW/RW. LW technically speaking RW on the leafs

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12-07-2012, 01:15 AM
  #38
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With the year being cancelled (soon) I would really hope that JVR is working really hard to learn how to play centre. If I was the Leafs brass id be looking to find him a good European home where he can play the rest of the year as a centre just to get a glimpse. (I know they cant send him but they could make a suggestion)
Worse case scenario we learn he cant do it, most likely we see that hes a decent centre but not first line material. Best case scenario we see him play like a true dominant centre.
If overseas doesnt work maybe the ECHL? Going against some level of competition is better than none, and he would be able to practice allot more on fundamentals.
Any ideas where / if he has been training this summer?
Disagree completely. Sorry to say but JVR needs to prove he is a NHL center. He has proved he can play center at a lower level, where vision and smarts arent as important if you are skilled. Look at most top prospects drafted as centers who play wing. If JVR wants to prove he is a center he has to show the fundamental skills on the wing first (much like Dallas' Benn). ECHL is a joke seeing how JVR has proved he is an NHL player

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12-07-2012, 01:22 AM
  #39
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I agree that Bernier and Reimer are so close at this point it's basically a wash in their values. Same age, same handedness, very similar stat lines. Reimer is a little bit bigger and that's the only major difference in them. Don't see the point of trading Kadri for Bernier, as it is not a clear upgrade on what we have. I'm tired of question marks in goal. Both have shown they can play, albeit not at a consistent enough level to warrant trading one of our top prospects for.

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12-07-2012, 01:30 AM
  #40
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JVR playing center was more of rumour/maybe they tried it and didnt work, either way he isnt playing center for us. Kadri plays wing when he is brought up as well. Ideally JVR is still the best second line choice, Although Carlyle likes kadri and used Kulemin in more of a shut down role sine his numbers have decreased. Ideally our lines look somthing like this. I see us playing more of a 3 line offensive game.

Lupul-free agent or trade-Kessel
JVR-Grabovski-Kadri
Kulemin-Bozak-Frattin
Steckel-mcclement-Brown
Orr
I like these lines, I see it almost the same way. My fourth line/13th forward would be slightly different.

Komarov - McClement - Brown
Steckel

If a legit top-6 center can be added, I like the potential of that forward group. Although, the Luongo trade could grab a piece or two from that top-9 and MacArthur and Connolly could be re-signed as a result.

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12-07-2012, 01:31 AM
  #41
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The thing with Kadri is he players center in the AHL, but when brought up he is a lw ideally but can play the rw. Kadri would fit in amazingly with the LA system (playoff one anyways), he is very gritty which he doesnt get enough credit for and can score. Bernier when brought in is a back up and thats far from knowing he is the go to guy, almost like its his time to shine and he prepares extra hard when called apon. Reimer was very consistent his rookie year. Putting up better numbers is very over rated as a back up..... trust me, Raycroft and Toskala had pretty good back up numbers too. Yes Bernier is very technically sound and all but again back to my original point, as a back up. Reimer was technically sound and very good as a starter. Honestly this can go on for every, you watch Bernier more and cheer for LA so Bernier is better to you, and I watched Reimer play more and cheer for the leafs so I see Reimer as better. In the end though they are very close

Also Mac is a LW/RW. LW technically speaking RW on the leafs
OK i know i dont see many marlie games but i was under the impression he was only moved back to center because colberne was out but was playing wing up till then. I honestly think that the toronto coaching has alot to do with the inconsency of the goaltending there . With bernier yes ive seen almost every game his played ( missed his rookie game it was over seas. ) To me last year he played well enuff to win in almost every game( the redwing game was aweful) He doesn't seem to give up many bad goals. He was a victim to no offense to suport him in most of his games. I watched alot of toskla and he gave up bad goals and was a victim of the bad defense, The key to any goalie getting respectable number in toronto will depend on how much they commit to a defense first approach. I think with reimer and bernier spiting games and defense first approach they would be decent enuff to get the leafs in playoff contension. I will give remier the lions share of the work but if u rotate the two of them i bet ur goaling improves more then just having reimer there with scriven as a backup

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12-07-2012, 01:33 AM
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12-07-2012, 01:39 AM
  #43
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I agree that Bernier and Reimer are so close at this point it's basically a wash in their values. Same age, same handedness, very similar stat lines. Reimer is a little bit bigger and that's the only major difference in them. Don't see the point of trading Kadri for Bernier, as it is not a clear upgrade on what we have. I'm tired of question marks in goal. Both have shown they can play, albeit not at a consistent enough level to warrant trading one of our top prospects for.
That is your right to think what you want but i think u really need to watch bernier play and not just look at stats. To me and anyone that has watched Bernier play its a clear upgrade but this is a Kadri value thread so i invite you and others that want to continue the bernier bashing to come over to the bernier thread and exchange thoughts but please read the thread before posting so i dont have to rehash the value stuff as i ve posted to that point alot and tire of reposting stuff i ve already said.

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12-07-2012, 01:40 AM
  #44
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Haha, I was going to say this but it always starts a war.

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12-07-2012, 06:38 AM
  #45
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I could see a team offering a mid first or later or a struggling prospect with similar upside for him. The problem I see with Kadri is that while he's amazingly skilled, has slick hands and great offensive awareness his size, maturity & defensive game just hasn't progressed enough leading me to believe he's going to have to be in a top-6 role as his game won't translate well in the bottom-6 (not saying he won't progress, he's still young and all deficiencies could easily be overcome but I'm looking at this from a buyers standpoint as requested by the OP). IMO these issues have lowered his stock enough to where a team with a 1st in the top half of a draft would probably rather pick their own player maybe with less skill but also with less ambiguity surrounding them.

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12-07-2012, 07:08 AM
  #46
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A late first doesn't accomplish much, the Leafs have 3 prospects picked from 20-30 in the draft(Biggs-22, Percy-25, Ashton-29). You think it is smart to move a former 7th overall pick and near PPG player in the AHL for a prospect of that calibre? Never.
Using Kadri's draft position to determine a minimum baseline return is ubsurd logic. Kadri has a value (that we're obviously digging at in this thread), and it's definitely not a 7th overall pick.

The real question is -- how can Kadri best be used to improve this hockey team. Basically, there's 3 options -- in trade for a positional need, as a member of the team, or as a way to maximize asset value.

I'm going to leave the 1st option alone for now... because it relates to #3.

On the 2nd -- this doesn't seem to be the possible. Toronto is loaded with forwards who are better then him, and other young guys who can certainly be put into a group that is of his skill set.

So the question becomes, how do you maximize Kadri's value? That's not going to happen playing in the AHL, which means they've gotta play him or trade him. It's not in the team's best interest to play him, so they've gotta trade him.

Ideally its in a deal to address a need on the team, but if that isn't available, "pushing the reset button" and trading for a late 1st might be the right call... simply because Kadri's a diminishing asset every day he stays in the AHL once the NHL is back... a new draft pick can hold/increase/decrease in value for a couple years.

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12-07-2012, 07:47 AM
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You know, for a "struggling" prospect, Kadri's statline is pretty damn good.

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12-07-2012, 08:06 AM
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You know, for a "struggling" prospect, Kadri's statline is pretty damn good.
Not really. The guy was a top draft pick from the OHL (along with the WHL, generally quickest transition to pro), and was a year older than most of the players in his draft class. He's now in his 3rd AHL season, and isn't even a point per game.

Of course he's close (18pts in 20 games), but that's basically zero development from where he was 2 years ago (41 pts in 44 games), while his goals-to-assists ratio has dropped substantially.

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12-07-2012, 09:34 AM
  #49
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To a few of the posts above,

MacArthur has been a LW for his entire duration on the Leafs. The addition of MacArthur is why Kulemin switched to RW. Also, Kadri is capable of playing either wing effectively (not a strong center though). For Kadri to gain top six minutes and be most effective, he needs to play RW.

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12-07-2012, 09:37 AM
  #50
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I think they would be crazy to take a late first for him...
kid is only 22 putting up good numbers in the ahl, There are lots of players that didnt make the nhl at 21... but because this one plays for Tor hes make nhl at 18 or bust.. even by tor fans..
Id love to have him on the preds and think he is worth more then a late first.
I thought the Preds were more defensive oriented/ But that being said I would not be against trading him to the Preds as they have a few players I have great interest in.

- Colin Wilson
- Austin Watson

Would love to get Wilson and have him play wing with JVR and Grabovski. Or even try him at C with Lupul and Kessel.(Although I feel like that would be more of a experiment than a sure fire fix to our C problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Well i'll tell you this, i'd do that Kipper deal in a heartbeat.
Kipper for Kadri? Done deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs87 View Post
JVR playing center was more of rumour/maybe they tried it and didnt work, either way he isnt playing center for us. Kadri plays wing when he is brought up as well. Ideally JVR is still the best second line choice, Although Carlyle likes kadri and used Kulemin in more of a shut down role sine his numbers have decreased. Ideally our lines look somthing like this. I see us playing more of a 3 line offensive game.

Lupul-free agent or trade-Kessel
JVR-Grabovski-Kadri
Kulemin-Bozak-Frattin
Steckel-mcclement-Brown
Orr
Not bad but I think Frattin may be bumped up to the second line. Kid is showing some real skill now that he is back in the AHL.

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