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Around the League 2012-12 I: Gary and Donald sitting in a tree

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Old
12-06-2012, 06:55 PM
  #426
BoxOfChocolates
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**** Donald Fehr and **** the NHLPA! Bunch of idiots who've screwed us of a hockey season.

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12-06-2012, 06:56 PM
  #427
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Bettman looks so pissed.

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12-06-2012, 06:58 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by BoxOfChocolates View Post
**** Donald Fehr and **** the NHLPA! Bunch of idiots who've screwed us of a hockey season.
Bettman and the owners are just as bad.

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12-06-2012, 07:04 PM
  #429
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Hahah Bettman's PO'd the PA didn't accept his "make whole" bribe money.

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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
I like it. No more ridiculous contracts being given out in free agency and it gives players a reason to stay with their original team. Sounds like it won't be happening though.
No I think that's boring. I wanna see players move around more. The way it is right now is fine imo, just add a max 5-10% variance from cap hit to salary and maybe not multi-yr contracts that take you past 40.

Also apparently Matt Duchene is a fan of that new show Nashville. That kid's tastes....I dunno.

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12-06-2012, 07:05 PM
  #430
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Bettman and the owners are just as bad.
No. I was 50/50 earlier in the year but enough is enough. The deal was there last night, and the PA blew it. **** them!

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12-06-2012, 07:18 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by BoxOfChocolates View Post
No. I was 50/50 earlier in the year but enough is enough. The deal was there last night, and the PA blew it. **** them!
You can't absolve the league of blame when Bettman says they want to do anything to get a deal done then says everything is off the table two minutes later.

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12-06-2012, 07:48 PM
  #432
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So... season over? Sure looks like it. Honestly I think the last NHL offer is a pretty good deal and the players should take it. To decertify just because of 5/7 year contract limits is pure insanity IMO.

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12-06-2012, 09:01 PM
  #433
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I heard Fehr an hour ago say that dollar wise they believe they're in agreement with the owners. It sounds like they've made progress.

I also heard the players want the mediators back in there. Sounds like the owners-players meetings have had a lot more success than Betttman-Fehr.

Don't really have a source - I was listening to XM Radio.

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12-06-2012, 09:02 PM
  #434
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Our old friend Dater has some juicy info on his Twitter.

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This depth player is wicked smart though. May put his name to comments soon. Sorry for anonymous tilt to this. not my style
Quote:
....privately, they are feeling powerless as the Ryan Millers and Brad Richards of the world pretend this is a sacrifice for them
Quote:
Bottom line here: Players say they are unified, but not what I'm hearing from this depth player. They'll deny that publicly, but...
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Fehr did not hold a player-wide conference call in saying that, important to note. Came from top down, trickle-down
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That depth player was not on the Avalanche, FYI. That's all I have on this
Damn, it would have been awesome if he was an Av.

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That deep-inside-players quote came from depth player. They want to play, but top players still in Fehr camp. Could explode soon
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From deep inside players side: "We were ready to play again. But Don came in (Wed.) and told us we could get more and to hold out"

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12-06-2012, 09:14 PM
  #435
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Fehr is the biggest piece of garbage on this earth. You guys can **** all the owners you want, but Bettman WANTS to play, he WANTS to get a deal done, he WANTED a deal done before Oct. Even now you have one of the richest owners in sports (Tanenbaum) actually yelled at Crosby and Toews (who is the biggest *********)when they came back from with Fehr's plans. You simply cannot trust Fehr and it's not about the owners side at all, because they're one reason why we're in this mess, but when one side who Bettman basically said (doesn't want to really negotiate), we as fans are in deep trouble.


Last edited by S E P H: 12-06-2012 at 09:26 PM.
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12-06-2012, 10:26 PM
  #436
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Fehr is an ******* and this was expected when he was hired by the NHLPA. He's a hard ass who won't stop until he gets the best possible deal.

Bettman is also a condescending ******* who doesn't want to concede anything and look bad when all of this is over. Just like Fehr, he wants to come out on top.

Neither one of these guys care about the game. This stuff about Bettman wanting to play and wanting to get a deal done is a bunch of crap. Maybe I'd believe that if this was the first labour dispute under his watch. Unfortunately, this is the third time this idiot has allowed this to happen.


Last edited by Frenchy: 12-07-2012 at 09:54 AM.
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12-06-2012, 11:00 PM
  #437
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I wonder if Fehr is fired after this. I never understood why he was brought in.

Sad thing is, I really have 0 interest in hockey right now. This has just killed all of it. It's all about the bottom dollar. And with Kroenke it's the same deal. They don't want you to come to the game to enjoy it. They want to suck every dollar they can out of your pocket.

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12-06-2012, 11:07 PM
  #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
Fehr is an ***hole and this was expected when he was hired by the NHLPA. He's a hard ass who won't stop until he gets the best possible deal.
Showing he doesn't care about us the fans. Also there are reports from players saying they think he's crashing the deal.

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Bettman is also a condescending jackass who doesn't want to concede anything and look bad when all of this is over. Just like Fehr, he wants to come out on top.
But Bettman works for owners (who probably aren't suffering from this lockout, but) who have many, many more costs to run a team and ultimately run the league. If your job decides to cut your salary by 10% you can either do two things, stay at your job or find a different one. When you work at your job you do what they say, because that is how they want it ran. Not to go on strike and cry about it, unions are good for giving workers rights, working conditions, and decent pay, but majority of them have already served their purposed and are now just whining whenever a business has to rethink their system, which happens quite a bit. Do you think majority of the Hostess employees would love to be working right now in their jobs? I think so, but now they're out of jobs because they had to follow a union who cares majority about the fat cats in THEIR system as well.

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Neither one of these guys care about the game. This stuff about Bettman wanting to play and wanting to get a deal done is a bunch of crap. Maybe I'd believe that if this was the first labour dispute under his watch. Unfortunately, this is the third time this idiot has allowed this to happen.
Straight up, you're wrong. I honestly believe Bettman wants to play and out of pure frustration of working for the owners is losing revenue and the casual fans. Do you think Fehr honestly cares about "these" issues? If you so, you're purely blinded by his kool-aid and Bettman's history. I can't speak for the other two lockouts because I was too young or not knowledgable enough, but a lockout occurs when TWOsides can't come to an agree, not one side, but TWO. Key word is two if you missed it, what was Fehr doing in the beginning of April when the playoffs started? Not negotiating I can tell you that. Also what was the effin PA doing the 2004 lockout where it didn't agree with Bettman for the whole effin season to then just agree to all their principles in time for the draft? I would see your point if PA got something out of it and basically what they got was the retarded owners own fault for overpaying players, where we are now. I don't see how it's Bettman's fault for something like this when they actually punished the Devils for breaking the contract agreement with Kovalchuk. Sorry this posts is probably filled with sentence structure errors, but I don't have time to proof read it due to having to wake up early for work tomorrow.

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12-06-2012, 11:53 PM
  #439
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The thread on the man board is so annoying...

I really can't see one Pro-pa argument that makes any sense.

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12-06-2012, 11:55 PM
  #440
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The thread on the man board is so annoying...

I really can't see one Pro-pa argument that makes any sense.
Thankfully HF is pretty pro-owner. Can't say the same for a bunch of other sites (especially ones were casuals go to)

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12-07-2012, 12:43 AM
  #441
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Actually I'm still pro-PA (or I should say less anti-PA). I'm not as easily convinced as some of you are because of an angry hissy fit by Bettman "showing emotion."

Going through the business board, I still don't see the PA being better off in any notable aspect here compared to what they had for the past 6 yrs. I also find the NHL being the ones who aren't negotiating by childish acts like pulling stuff off the table when they point at the PA for not negotiating. A good example is the PA willing to do 8 yr contract maxes yet the NHl wants a 5 yr max. You can't have it all, 8 is better than what you had before. You can probably get the PA to make another concession such as only allowing an 8 max if it's signed before the age of 30 otherwise 5 in order to limit the risk of insurance costs or having insurance not cover certain things beyond X age....you get the point. Their approach is still too hardline and their claims of "we give and give" are just PR spin.

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12-07-2012, 01:31 AM
  #442
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I'm also still on the PA side, although I'm cautious with their end game strategy. I really hate the analogies to other work forces as I don't think they're relatable. So sure while if your job tells the employee to take a cut or walk - you listen; but you can't tell your raw material supplier that you're cutting their pay and to just pound sand too, atleast if you want to keep your product supplied at the same quality. Hence they negotiate.


This is a business, for both sides. Neither of them are negotiating to get fairness, negotiations don't ever work that way. You play to win. You negotiate for that edge, for lawyers this is their Stanley cup. I'd suggest that you don't actually want your key negotiators to care about "the good of the game" in the sentimental state. Good business isn't dictated by emotion, which sucks for us but I think it's important to differentiate.


All that being said, I'd be atleast mulling over the last nhl offer. While they may still try to position some, it didn't seem to unreasonable from the bits and pieces leaked. Think this is the end game stage and it'd be silly to drag on too long.


Last edited by Baron: 12-07-2012 at 01:41 AM.
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12-07-2012, 09:22 AM
  #443
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This is getting ridiculous.

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12-07-2012, 09:35 AM
  #444
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People forget that the players made more money on their contracts the last couple years than their contracts actually entailed.

The players are far from innocent in this mess.

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12-07-2012, 03:42 PM
  #445
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12-07-2012, 04:53 PM
  #446
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Actually I'm still pro-PA (or I should say less anti-PA). I'm not as easily convinced as some of you are because of an angry hissy fit by Bettman "showing emotion."
In other words, you really bought into that whole NHLPA youtube video to the fans. Sorry, I'm not as easily convinced as you are because of a sappy "we just want to play" video.

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12-07-2012, 07:01 PM
  #447
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If you take a step back and take a global view of these negotiations, they're getting closer to a deal.

About a month ago, when they had the 4-day bargaining session, it was the same story. NHL makes an offer to the PA, PA rejects it, then NHL says to the media "we feel we're close". Now it's the opposite. Whatever. Despite the spinning you hear, they are closer than they were. BOTH sides have moved. I think we'll have a deal before O'Reilly plays his first game with Magnitogorsk.

Good article by Lebrun:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...lose-to-a-deal

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12-07-2012, 07:55 PM
  #448
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All the pro owner people out there want to explain how a deal gets done when Bettman either storms out of the room emotionally instead of negotiating, or rejcts a PA proposal in 10 minutes after just about every meeting he's in? How many times has he stormed out like a 10 year old, and how many times has the PA?

I dont' know what to think about Fehr on this round, but he's no more to blame than Bettman again. All the pro owner people out there please explain to me why a 5 year limit on contracts is the ONLY way to stop backdiving contracts, and that the league considers it the "hill they'll die on."

That's just retarded. There's dozens of ways you can eliminate the backdiving deals, you don't have to completely remove any chance of a player signing a deal longer than 5 years. Just off the top of my head, you could do the exact same thing by not allowing teams to buyout contracts after the 5th year, and even do something like make the cap hit the highest yearly salary over the course of the deal after 5 years.

Or you could be willing to move towards 6 or 7 year max. Why "die on the hill" for a 5 year max? There's so many other ways to prevent the backdiving contracts, that will still leave the possibility for a few players to get longer term deals if a team wants to give them. These kind of things are why deals aren't getting done. One side takes a ridiculous hardline stance, instead of exploring other ways to satisfy both parties a little more so they can agree.

This whole thing went off the cliff because the Winnepeg and TB owners convinced the others to offer the $300M on good faith first, instead of dragging out the process. The Leafs owner was pissed at this, and when the PA made a counter proposal instead of accepting the one they gave right off the bat, he apparently" turned purple" lost his **** and stormed out of the meeting and went back to Toronto. The next day Bettman came in to revisit his usual hardline stance, stormed out himself again and took their previous offer off the table, instead of negotiating.

I just wish Fehr and Bettman would have stayed out, and let the players and the owners minus the Leafs d**che settle everything down to the signatures. I can't believe how dedicated it seemed that whole group was with those back to back marathon sessions.

They made it that close, and then Bettman and Fehr came back in and blew up the whole thing because they have to posture as hardliners, and they both know it, which forces them to do the same. Neither one wants to LOSE, and they're both too good at this thing to sign anything if they do. Hence no deal will get signed. One or both sides needs to lose to get a deal done, so one or both of these guys needs to go or stay out of the process.

There's no way the league is losing on this deal because they're getting more than they did in the last CBA on every issue. That said, even though I feel like that, I would be fine with Fehr getting fired just so they can save the season. I think this is Bettman's doing, and he should be the guy to go, but that will never happen, so get rid of Fehr and just sign the deal and give Bettman the KO again. He's just too good, because he doesn't give a **** about the fans, no matter how much he says it, he just wants to win in negotiations at all cost. That's about 90% of the reason he was hired by the owners.

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12-07-2012, 08:12 PM
  #449
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According to many people in the Twitterverse, Bettman didn't re-enter the negotiations yesterday, only Fehr did. Bettman was at the NHL offices, and it was supposedly the PA who were "upset that he didn't show up" when they made their last proposal.

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12-07-2012, 08:37 PM
  #450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
All the pro owner people out there want to explain how a deal gets done when Bettman either storms out of the room emotionally instead of negotiating, or rejcts a PA proposal in 10 minutes after just about every meeting he's in? How many times has he stormed out like a 10 year old, and how many times has the PA?

I dont' know what to think about Fehr on this round, but he's no more to blame than Bettman again. All the pro owner people out there please explain to me why a 5 year limit on contracts is the ONLY way to stop backdiving contracts, and that the league considers it the "hill they'll die on."

That's just retarded. There's dozens of ways you can eliminate the backdiving deals, you don't have to completely remove any chance of a player signing a deal longer than 5 years. Just off the top of my head, you could do the exact same thing by not allowing teams to buyout contracts after the 5th year, and even do something like make the cap hit the highest yearly salary over the course of the deal after 5 years.

Or you could be willing to move towards 6 or 7 year max. Why "die on the hill" for a 5 year max? There's so many other ways to prevent the backdiving contracts, that will still leave the possibility for a few players to get longer term deals if a team wants to give them. These kind of things are why deals aren't getting done. One side takes a ridiculous hardline stance, instead of exploring other ways to satisfy both parties a little more so they can agree.

This whole thing went off the cliff because the Winnepeg and TB owners convinced the others to offer the $300M on good faith first, instead of dragging out the process. The Leafs owner was pissed at this, and when the PA made a counter proposal instead of accepting the one they gave right off the bat, he apparently" turned purple" lost his **** and stormed out of the meeting and went back to Toronto. The next day Bettman came in to revisit his usual hardline stance, stormed out himself again and took their previous offer off the table, instead of negotiating.

I just wish Fehr and Bettman would have stayed out, and let the players and the owners minus the Leafs d**che settle everything down to the signatures. I can't believe how dedicated it seemed that whole group was with those back to back marathon sessions.

They made it that close, and then Bettman and Fehr came back in and blew up the whole thing because they have to posture as hardliners, and they both know it, which forces them to do the same. Neither one wants to LOSE, and they're both too good at this thing to sign anything if they do. Hence no deal will get signed. One or both sides needs to lose to get a deal done, so one or both of these guys needs to go or stay out of the process.

There's no way the league is losing on this deal because they're getting more than they did in the last CBA on every issue. That said, even though I feel like that, I would be fine with Fehr getting fired just so they can save the season. I think this is Bettman's doing, and he should be the guy to go, but that will never happen, so get rid of Fehr and just sign the deal and give Bettman the KO again. He's just too good, because he doesn't give a **** about the fans, no matter how much he says it, he just wants to win in negotiations at all cost. That's about 90% of the reason he was hired by the owners.
Firstly, it doesn't matter if Bettman storms out of the room and gets angry. Watch his press conference and he explains WHY in detail.

They were all set to sign the deal and all they needed was a 'YES' from the players, instead, they got a bunch of other modifications to their conditions. Fehr decided to hold out for more and it's pissing off the league. I don't care much for Fehr but it's his RIGHT to do that if he wants. That's the reason he was hired. I personally believe that there is some risk involved in that but I'm guessing Fehr believes he can get more.

I get what you mean about the issues on contract length. I don't quite get it either. It's almost a mechanism to prevent GMs from being too retarded. (Don't kid yourself, they'd still be plenty retarded with a fixed term, but I guess it wouldn't be for as long) Still, if those are the issues that they are fighting for, so be it. I read that the NHLPA offered 8 years. You have to believe that somewhere down the line, they should be able to negotiate a number between 5 and 8.

I don't believe that the reasons it 'went off the cliff' is 100% accurate. Someone from the league side said that if Fehr was going to 'come back into the room' that might be a deal-breaker. Well, I don't believe the league could expect Sidney Crosby to draw up a legal agreement or make decisions of that nature for 700 guys, after all that's what they hired Fehr for anyways.

But again, this is ALL part of negotiations and tactics and strategies. Perhaps after getting things so close, even the slight notion that putting Fehr back in screwed up the process of an eventual deal could be seen as a black mark against the leader of the PA with his own membership.

And don't kid yourself, that voicemail horsecrap is an absolute joke. If you're in the middle of negotiating with the other party and you've made them a proposal and THEY ****ING CALL YOU ON THE PHONE, you answer the damn thing!! They let it go to voicemail, on purpose because they knew what the reaction/answer was going to be AND because they figured they'd use it to make the league look bad.

Lots of posturing still going on, BOTH SIDES but we're closer than we were before.

Bob MacKenzie tweeted something interesting today. There are 89 players on contracts that were signed to longer than 5 years. Of those 89, just over half are on 6-7 year deals as UFA or RFA with their own clubs. So a 5 year contract term limit could conceivably apply to just over 40 players. (5.7% of the players)
Poor Brandon Yip, he'll never sign that 10 year contract he's been looking for.

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