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Jan 6/13: CBA reached to end the Lockout. Rejoice! (Post#783)

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12-06-2012, 10:50 PM
  #151
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Bettman is completely and utterly out of his depth. Wow Donald Fehr is a PR wizard in comparison: league looked absolutely foolish today. Note that the league didn't dispute any of what Fehr said, only that it was "cherry picking" because they offered it all as part of a package.

Nobody bargains that way. Nobody. You don't make an entire offer and then pull it off the table when the other side wants to negotiate portions of it.

When Bettman sits up there and says how "emotionial" the owners were because they "gave" the players an extra 1/33 of a single year's revenues (100 million) in the make whole, and how they were so upset the players didn't stand up and applaud, it should rightly be met with snickers from the assembled media. I don't know why every reporter there who isn't a defacto league member (read: Dreger) doesn't stand up at that point and ask Bettman to name a single thing the owners have given to the players that they didn't previously have. Expanded pensions? Anything else?

Bettman didn't do any favours for himself with his panicky, angry-blink press conference, either. Don Fehr is the Phil Jackson of union negotiations.

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12-06-2012, 10:51 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by ddawg1950 View Post
Take an anti depressant beore you read this: Ken Campbell from The Hockey News.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...n-big-way.html
Anything with the byline "Ken Campbell" is unreadable. I'd rather read Eklund (well, not quite...)

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12-06-2012, 11:00 PM
  #153
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I've been trying to get into the NHLs head when it comes to 5 year contracts.

a) 5 years? ELC + 5 years = still RFA?

b) insurance issue? (doesn't that come out of the 50% anyway).

c) NHL wants player churn - help keep talent roughly equal around the league

d) avoids de facto cap evasion through inflation and front weighting. Surely they could work something out around $=cap hit for the last few years.

None of the above reasons seem like deal killers even combined they don't seem enough for the NHL to refuse to deal. The only thing I can think of that might force the NHLs hand is the new "can't hide a cap hit, ever, anywhere, anytime" rule. Are they trying to avoid 10 years of a potentially bad franchise killing bad contract ie stuck with Bryzgalov's contract for 10 years no matter where you hide him.

There must be something being the NHLs paranoia.

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12-06-2012, 11:01 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Bettman is completely and utterly out of his depth. Wow Donald Fehr is a PR wizard in comparison: league looked absolutely foolish today. Note that the league didn't dispute any of what Fehr said, only that it was "cherry picking" because they offered it all as part of a package.

Nobody bargains that way. Nobody. You don't make an entire offer and then pull it off the table when the other side wants to negotiate portions of it.

When Bettman sits up there and says how "emotionial" the owners were because they "gave" the players an extra 1/33 of a single year's revenues (100 million) in the make whole, and how they were so upset the players didn't stand up and applaud, it should rightly be met with snickers from the assembled media. I don't know why every reporter there who isn't a defacto league member (read: Dreger) doesn't stand up at that point and ask Bettman to name a single thing the owners have given to the players that they didn't previously have. Expanded pensions? Anything else?

Bettman didn't do any favours for himself with his panicky, angry-blink press conference, either. Don Fehr is the Phil Jackson of union negotiations.
I also find it funny how the owners were offended that the NHLPA didn't soil their pants when they offer $100 mil more.
Remember how early on in the negotiations the NHL made a lowball offer to the NHLPA? I wonder how the players felt about that. Maybe offended perhaps?
HUR DURRRRR


This whole thing is just ****ing pathetic and I've given up on expecting there to be a season.

The NHL has essentially wasted three months offering a low amount of money, then very slowly increasing it to see if the NHLPA would break under the pressure of missing so many games.
The NHL could have made this offer in late October/early November and we would probably have a deal done by now.

All they're doing is screwing over fans, employees of NHL teams, and the fringe NHLers/older players who may be forced to retire.

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12-06-2012, 11:08 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Bettman is completely and utterly out of his depth. Wow Donald Fehr is a PR wizard in comparison: league looked absolutely foolish today. Note that the league didn't dispute any of what Fehr said, only that it was "cherry picking" because they offered it all as part of a package.

Nobody bargains that way. Nobody. You don't make an entire offer and then pull it off the table when the other side wants to negotiate portions of it.

When Bettman sits up there and says how "emotionial" the owners were because they "gave" the players an extra 1/33 of a single year's revenues (100 million) in the make whole, and how they were so upset the players didn't stand up and applaud, it should rightly be met with snickers from the assembled media. I don't know why every reporter there who isn't a defacto league member (read: Dreger) doesn't stand up at that point and ask Bettman to name a single thing the owners have given to the players that they didn't previously have. Expanded pensions? Anything else?

Bettman didn't do any favours for himself with his panicky, angry-blink press conference, either. Don Fehr is the Phil Jackson of union negotiations.
The problem here is how many fans Bettman has apparently won over. And I'm still puzzled at how people ate up that ****.

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12-06-2012, 11:10 PM
  #156
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"Hey this our best deal. Take it or leave it. Nothing better will be offered".

2 months later....

"Ok, now THIS is our best deal".


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12-06-2012, 11:12 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by LiquidSnake View Post
"Hey this our best deal. Take it or leave it. Nothing better will be offered".

2 months later....

"Ok, now THIS is our best deal".

Bettman logic 101

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12-06-2012, 11:18 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Bettman is completely and utterly out of his depth. Wow Donald Fehr is a PR wizard in comparison: league looked absolutely foolish today. Note that the league didn't dispute any of what Fehr said, only that it was "cherry picking" because they offered it all as part of a package.

Nobody bargains that way. Nobody. You don't make an entire offer and then pull it off the table when the other side wants to negotiate portions of it.

When Bettman sits up there and says how "emotionial" the owners were because they "gave" the players an extra 1/33 of a single year's revenues (100 million) in the make whole, and how they were so upset the players didn't stand up and applaud, it should rightly be met with snickers from the assembled media. I don't know why every reporter there who isn't a defacto league member (read: Dreger) doesn't stand up at that point and ask Bettman to name a single thing the owners have given to the players that they didn't previously have. Expanded pensions? Anything else?

Bettman didn't do any favours for himself with his panicky, angry-blink press conference, either. Don Fehr is the Phil Jackson of union negotiations.
To say that Fehr is looking good out of this is just... odd...

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12-06-2012, 11:20 PM
  #159
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I'm surprised at how many people are with Fehr and the NHLPA on this one. They've made zero attempt to progress this or add anything new to the discussions. Their offers have been offensive and a few they didn't even bother doing the math for.

The NHLPA and Fehr lost it. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw somebody else take over the NHLPA in the not too distant future.

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12-06-2012, 11:20 PM
  #160
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heh

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12-06-2012, 11:26 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edonator View Post
I'm surprised at how many people are with Fehr and the NHLPA on this one. They've made zero attempt to progress this or add anything new to the discussions. Their offers have been offensive and a few they didn't even bother doing the math for.

The NHLPA and Fehr lost it. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw somebody else take over the NHLPA in the not too distant future.
I'm not "with" Fehr, but Bettman and the owners have been so much worse it isn't even close.

If a season is salvaged, it will be because the players force Fehr to accept what the NHL offers.
I can see Fehr willing to wait it out and let a whole season be lost, but I don't see the players allowing that to happen.

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12-06-2012, 11:27 PM
  #162
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There shouldn't be a make whole provision, the NHL should have honoured the contracts it was responsible for signing. But now it's on the bargaining table.


300m in make whole contingent on 5 year contract limits is a joke. I'm not surprised the players didn't buckle. That said, they will have to at some point. They know at this point that they will get less than they had in the prior CBA, but do they give way on contract rights? That's the question.

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12-06-2012, 11:31 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by *Injektilo View Post
To say that Fehr is looking good out of this is just... odd...
The have the Fehr blinders on. And if you're anti-Fehr you must be pro-Betman. Betman is an idiot and bad for the game, but the NHL has successfully make it look like Fehr threw the grenade in this one. Indeed, there are numerous sources which have indicated that is what happened. Does help having Betman come out with his ******* exploding offers after and make a crap situation worse.

Fehr could care less if hockey was played this year. Betman wants to cement his "legacy". You have two egomaniacs who have their own agendas here. At least it seemed that the owners like Burkle and Tannenbam are starting to pull Betman in (or had until now)

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12-06-2012, 11:32 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by M A K A V E L I View Post
Sportsnet Pacific should try getting broadcast rights for Canucks games from the 90s. I'm sure plenty of people would tune in to watch.
Not sure I could force myself to watch the mid to late 90s games all over again.

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12-06-2012, 11:34 PM
  #165
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I believe a lot of this is a calculated PR move by the league, trying to paint Fehr as the bad guy. Obviously trying to get the players to dump him because he doesn't let the league bend over the players like they did before. Trying to get a deal done without Fehr was the best way the league was going to get everything they wanted, doesn't look like that's the case anymore.

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12-06-2012, 11:40 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
There shouldn't be a make whole provision, the NHL should have honoured the contracts it was responsible for signing. But now it's on the bargaining table.


300m in make whole contingent on 5 year contract limits is a joke. I'm not surprised the players didn't buckle. That said, they will have to at some point. They know at this point that they will get less than they had in the prior CBA, but do they give way on contract rights? That's the question.
$300m is more than enough to cover make whole. That's about $180m this year and $120m next year (or with lost games $130, 120,50). After 2 years all the players contracts should fit under 50% split and all existing contracts should be being paid in full anyway.

Linking that to 5 years seems stupid to me too.We don't know if the NHL has spotted some killer flaw they aren't letting on about that 6+ deals can exploit (I can't find it). We aren't in the rooms so we have no real idea. Is the NHL is playing hardball? Is NHLPA is playing games? Has Fehr's entire game plan always been to decertify and the negotiations are just a front to make it look like he tried?

Anyway I'm surprised they haven't murdered each other.


Last edited by me2: 12-07-2012 at 12:04 AM.
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12-07-2012, 12:11 AM
  #167
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I'm still waiting to hear what the NHL has "given" the players.

They HAD 57% of HRR and got some "make whole" money to partially compensate for the loss, down to 50%. MINUS

Contract Limits at 5 years. MINUS

5% variance. MINUS

Arbitration rights stay the same. SAME

10 year agreement. UNKNOWN (PA wants 5 years though)


Someone find me a gain anywhere in the NHL proposal for the players. It's hilarious that some morons out there think that the owners are bending over backwards to give and give and give to players. They are giving **** to the players that they already had and telling them "You ****ing ingrates! We added $100m to the "make whole" you should be thanking us!", when in reality they are purchasing 7% of HRR (likely in perpetuity) for a mere one time payment of $300m...a pittance of its actual value already.
Now I don't think Fehr did himself any favors by going public with the deal and singing the virtues of their movement and how close they were to a deal now. It's kind of slimy and disingenuous. It wouldn't bother me at all if they canned him. More progress was made without either Bettman or Fehr.

For those who side with those "poor" owners who need all these concessions from the players I would suggest reading this article...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4429817/

It's from July, but its a good reason why you shouldn't be siding with these chumps.

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12-07-2012, 12:14 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
More progress was made without either Bettman or Fehr.
Kick Jacobs out the room (and the likes of Bolland on the other side) & just have the owners & players work out a deal (no Bettman/no Fehr).

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12-07-2012, 12:17 AM
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I'm still waiting to hear what the NHL has "given" the players.

They HAD 57% of HRR and got some "make whole" money to partially compensate for the loss, down to 50%. MINUS

Contract Limits at 5 years. MINUS

5% variance. MINUS

Arbitration rights stay the same. SAME

10 year agreement. UNKNOWN (PA wants 5 years though)


Someone find me a gain anywhere in the NHL proposal for the players. It's hilarious that some morons out there think that the owners are bending over backwards to give and give and give to players. They are giving **** to the players that they already had and telling them "You ****ing ingrates! We added $100m to the "make whole" you should be thanking us!", when in reality they are purchasing 7% of HRR (likely in perpetuity) for a mere one time payment of $300m...a pittance of its actual value already.
Now I don't think Fehr did himself any favors by going public with the deal and singing the virtues of their movement and how close they were to a deal now. It's kind of slimy and disingenuous. It wouldn't bother me at all if they canned him. More progress was made without either Bettman or Fehr.

For those who side with those "poor" owners who need all these concessions from the players I would suggest reading this article...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4429817/

It's from July, but its a good reason why you shouldn't be siding with these chumps.
not sure why it's so hard to understand that the last CBA is irrelevant. but continue to bury your head in the sand

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12-07-2012, 12:23 AM
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Kick Jacobs out the room (and the likes of Bolland on the other side) & just have the owners & players work out a deal (no Bettman/no Fehr).
Works for me, and seems to make the most sense. If I'm Crosby right now I'm on the phone with Burkle trying to get things back on track because it seems like those two guys are the moderates who are trying to put the game first here.

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12-07-2012, 12:49 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I'm still waiting to hear what the NHL has "given" the players.

They HAD 57% of HRR and got some "make whole" money to partially compensate for the loss, down to 50%. MINUS
the problem here is cap was allowed to go to $70m which created an artificial bubble in salaries which was not sustained by the next CBA and likely going to pop. Knowing the CBA would end before it any $70m season would start and that the HRR split would come down under the new seasons CBA - well it's predictable most of the ugliness we see over this is due to this bubble being popped. All this mess for 2 months offseason bubble caused by an imaginary cap that disappeared before the season started.........

When the CBA ended the cap should have stayed at the old season cap until a new cap was negotiated. What's the worst that could have happened - they kept the cap at $64m but renewed 57% and the players would have received a massive end of seaspm bonus to boost it up from 52% (64m) to 57%. Hopefully the NHL learns from this, but I doubt it.

Quote:
Contract Limits at 5 years. MINUS
agree

Quote:
5% variance. MINUS
disagree. A small number benefit and most suffer. Suter's deal eats into every other player's pay via escrow. Parise's deal eats into every other player's pay. Weber's deal eats into every other player's pay etc. The 5% per year could arguable be an advantage for most as it stops front loaded contracts eating into other players share of HRR.

At worst it's neutral, HRR split evens it out anyway. The players don't come out this worse off - outside of a few elites chasing back diving contracts.
Quote:
Arbitration rights stay the same. SAME

10 year agreement. UNKNOWN (PA wants 5 years though)
Both sides should take 10 years and be happy. The longer the gap between these two sides fighting over a CBA the better.


Last edited by me2: 12-07-2012 at 12:54 AM.
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12-07-2012, 12:51 AM
  #172
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Both sides should take 10 years and be happy. The longer the gap between these two sides fighting over a CBA the better.
That's the part I don't get from the players side. You know there's going to be another lockout when the next deal expires (no way the owners will let the players have the leverage again like in the early 90s players strike); why not put off that as much as possible?

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12-07-2012, 12:56 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
That's the part I don't get from the players side. You know there's going to be another lockout when the next deal expires (no way the owners will let the players have the leverage again like in the early 90s players strike); why not put off that as much as possible?
The only reason I'd do it is if I intended to decertify in 2018 or some other war tactics. Far enough away you have time to prepare and frighten the owners. I can't think of any other reasons I'd want less personally.

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12-07-2012, 12:56 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I'm still waiting to hear what the NHL has "given" the players.

They HAD 57% of HRR and got some "make whole" money to partially compensate for the loss, down to 50%. MINUS

Contract Limits at 5 years. MINUS

5% variance. MINUS

Arbitration rights stay the same. SAME

10 year agreement. UNKNOWN (PA wants 5 years though)


Someone find me a gain anywhere in the NHL proposal for the players. It's hilarious that some morons out there think that the owners are bending over backwards to give and give and give to players. They are giving **** to the players that they already had and telling them "You ****ing ingrates! We added $100m to the "make whole" you should be thanking us!", when in reality they are purchasing 7% of HRR (likely in perpetuity) for a mere one time payment of $300m...a pittance of its actual value already.
Now I don't think Fehr did himself any favors by going public with the deal and singing the virtues of their movement and how close they were to a deal now. It's kind of slimy and disingenuous. It wouldn't bother me at all if they canned him. More progress was made without either Bettman or Fehr.

For those who side with those "poor" owners who need all these concessions from the players I would suggest reading this article...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4429817/

It's from July, but its a good reason why you shouldn't be siding with these chumps.
No one in their right mind did not see 50% coming. Every other major sports league has 50% rev share or the players earning less of that share. Owners asking players to have a lower shared rev; unfair? How about players earning disproportionate amount of revenue; this is unfair too. That's why anything with half a brain right now knows the middle ground was and is 50% each. The fact that the NHL is willing to concede and offer "make whole" payments to honour contracts proves that they are willing to work to transition the rev sharing.

And contract limits? Let's get this straight, you haggle over a couple things and get them to compromise at 6 or 7 UFA, 8 for own team signing. The trickle down effect of a UFA only getting 5 years, so a lesser calibre player would get even less, should not be a worry. The differentiating point is money still and it will always be money earned by the players, not the term. If Jason Garrison signed a 5 year deal as a UFA, Mike Weaver can still go out and sign the same 5 year deal as well. His contract may be a fraction of Jason's, but he still can get his term. This point affects so few players its ludicrous to think it's one of the sticking points.

And 5% variance, honestly, someone needs to explain the gigantic problem with this one to me. I don't see how this even starts to be a 'strikeable' issue. Top end players (who this effects) are still going to command top dollars on the market. All it means is that their cap should be closer to their true value. I don't think you can find a single player on the Canucks roster whose current contract doesn't fit into the 5% variance goal.


Anyways...

This has been the most embarrassing negotiations between a league and union possibly ever seen in sports history. They should come out feeling ashamed of themselves.

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12-07-2012, 01:08 AM
  #175
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I don't think it's a coincedence that the NHL presented their best movement to the players, on a day when Fehr wouldn't be present (look what you players did!)... I don't think it's a coincedence that the Daly stands with the other Fehr on a night when Donald hasn't had a chance to dissect or put his stamp on yet (look how close we are when dealing directly with you players!)... The NHL clearly, IMHO, is trying to show that Fehr is the problem to a deal getting done... I think it worked... I think there's a wedge in the NHLPA now... Or, if not a wedge... A little crack... We should be hearing some player rumbling over the next week or so, IMO... Hell, players have left Europe to come back, and the players were all gung ho to come back... I wouldn't be surprised if there were players in the room saying (talking amongst the players themselves) just give the NHL the three vital things they want - and negotiate elsewhere, on non-vital things that can still really benefit us...

I think that things are pretty damn close... I'm not sold that the players are not sold to give on the three vital things the NHL says it wants... If the NHL extends an olive branch in a week, this finally gets done... Today was nothing more than a muscle flexing from the NHL, IMHO... I think they were genuinly insulted with the NHLPA leadership response to the amount of movement they made... "We feed you this, and you ask for more food?... Fine, I won't feed you any... Don't bite the hand that feeds you"... Obviously, the NHL wants to win this negotiation... They smell blood, and are going for the kill... If they don't get the kill within the week, IMO, the NHL I think will extend an olive branch - as there's no way I can see a lost season (or not a significant season in terms of games) over a disagreement regarding this... Lost weeks, sure... Lost months? Entire season? Would be completely silly... I think the NHL's response was an emotional response today... One they could afford to have and take... Tonight, I think more than a few players are questioning if they should have just accepted the three vital things, and negotiate elsewhere... I think Crosby is one who might be pissed... Both Fehr and Bettman will hold their absolute best hand until the last possible moment... and hope that they don't need to ever show it... Either one gets the deal done, IMO... But in the meantime, there's a few more weeks to squeeze more juice out of the fruit... Advantage, NHL...


Last edited by I in the Eye: 12-07-2012 at 01:13 AM.
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