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All CBA talk. A deal? A deal!!!

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Old
12-07-2012, 01:15 AM
  #376
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Probably the best summary of things.

Also alludes to the union showing cracks at some point, but I'm not watching it again right now.

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12-07-2012, 02:00 AM
  #377
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Quote:
‏@ScottieUpshall
Plain and simple these owners think they can break us apart. GOOD LUCK! We r stronger than we've ever been and r behind Fehr %100.
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@ScottieUpshall
There's no pressure yet on the owners to lose this year, that's why they still treat us like Cattle. They'll need a partner come January.
Thank you Scottie for backing what I've said was the hardliners agenda. Drag out the negotiations as long as possible so the season is in the balance (into January). Then the players feel they will have the leverage and the owners will need the players to make a deal.

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12-07-2012, 06:52 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Thank you Scottie for backing what I've said was the hardliners agenda. Drag out the negotiations as long as possible so the season is in the balance (into January). Then the players feel they will have the leverage and the owners will need the players to make a deal.
If the season doesn't start in the last(ish) week of december the season is over. They need 48 games minimum, and from January 1st the sabres have 46. If it goes into January it will probably go all the way to next season.

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12-07-2012, 09:42 AM
  #379
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
The players benefit from the things the owners dropped. Why on earth would the owners give the players even more things to inflate their salaries. Arbitration means players have ways to artificially inflate their salaries. In some cases massively. Its an incredibly pro player system.

I'm amazed anyone thinks the players are being "screwed" in any way shape or form. Had they accepted the owners system they would still be making a ton of money, and unlike their play, its guaranteed. They would have only one meaningful restriction to their contracts and that would be the 5 years limit (7 for re-signing your own RFAs/UFAs). Something that impacts a very small percentage of players.


Folks we're not talking about poor coal miners fighting for health care and a living wage against the evil mine owner. We are talking about players that even at the bottom of the pay scale are millionaires. Matt Ellis has 1.9mil in career earnings. I don't begrudge him a penny of it. But lets not pretend these players are being put upon and are fighting the good fight as a union. I don't know too many union workers in the real world that can take several months off and not get paid so they can have a pissing match with their employer.
I'm aware the players benefit from the things the players dropped. But the owners aren't giving players even more things to inflate their salaries, they're just leaving it the way it was drawn up last time in certain areas while taking away in many other areas. The major areas the players have given in, which they said they were ok with..just not to the extent owners expected them to.

I don't think the players are getting "screwed", I just don't buy into the rationale that players should just shut up and be happy making money. There are contractual rights being broken, why should they sit on their hands and do nothing?

In regards to the last line there, it's not the union workers taking months off to get in a pissing match with their employer. Their employer locked them out and said if you don't take a pay cut you can't work here. Most people in the real world have the option to go elsewhere for work, NHL players don't necessarily have that option. The comparison you make does not fit this situation, in my opinion.


I avoided this thread for a long, long time. I hate talking about this crap, I just want to see the NHL back. NCAA and AHL can only sustain me for so long.

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12-07-2012, 10:33 AM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Buffalo87 View Post
I'm aware the players benefit from the things the players dropped. But the owners aren't giving players even more things to inflate their salaries, they're just leaving it the way it was drawn up last time in certain areas while taking away in many other areas. The major areas the players have given in, which they said they were ok with..just not to the extent owners expected them to.

I don't think the players are getting "screwed", I just don't buy into the rationale that players should just shut up and be happy making money. There are contractual rights being broken, why should they sit on their hands and do nothing?

In regards to the last line there, it's not the union workers taking months off to get in a pissing match with their employer. Their employer locked them out and said if you don't take a pay cut you can't work here. Most people in the real world have the option to go elsewhere for work, NHL players don't necessarily have that option. The comparison you make does not fit this situation, in my opinion.


I avoided this thread for a long, long time. I hate talking about this crap, I just want to see the NHL back. NCAA and AHL can only sustain me for so long.
How are contractual rights being broken? The contracts signed the last 7 years were governed by the last CBA which is no longer in effect.

What it comes down to now with Make Whole is a gradual decline to a 50/50 split and contract limits set at 5 years. I can't think of any other appreciable difference between the owner's last proposal and the previous CBA. The players admitted that there are many teams not healthy and agreed to 50/50. 5 year contract limits are bad for the star players but would free up more money under the cap for the rank and file. I can't fathom why the players would not take that deal.

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12-07-2012, 10:40 AM
  #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalo87 View Post

In regards to the last line there, it's not the union workers taking months off to get in a pissing match with their employer. Their employer locked them out and said if you don't take a pay cut you can't work here. Most people in the real world have the option to go elsewhere for work, NHL players don't necessarily have that option. The comparison you make does not fit this situation, in my opinion.
Knowing Fehr's history there's no way the owners could risk starting the season and then taking the chance of the players walking away in the middle ie the previous baseball strike.

The players unlike more people have plenty of opportunity to go ply their wares elsewhere in the world, hence the number you see playing overseas. Your average worker doesn't have the means to pack up and move in the hope of getting another job.

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12-07-2012, 10:42 AM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
Knowing Fehr's history there's no way the owners could risk starting the season and then taking the chance of the players walking away in the middle ie the previous baseball strike.

The players unlike more people have plenty of opportunity to go ply their wares elsewhere in the world, hence the number you see playing overseas. Your average worker doesn't have the means to pack up and move in the hope of getting another job.
The circumstances surrounding the baseball strike have no parallel with the current situation.

Amusing that just because Fehr is involved that a walkout is on the table is disingenuous.

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12-07-2012, 10:53 AM
  #383
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It seems that Fehr reminded the players exactly what the cap manoeuvres will mean. Players receiving the big contracts will eat up such a large per centage of the cap that the rest of the team will suffer. For example--if you have 3 players making the maximum % of the cap hit that a player is allowed--that means 60% of the cap is gone--leaving a 23 player payroll with only 40% of the 60 million cap left to pay 20 players. If Weber etc. salary are to be paid over 5 years for example to a max cap hit then the 20 remaining players are splitting only 24 million. Fehr wants to push the cap further along so that there is more money for the "lesser" players without infringing on the big guys bonanzas. It means the owners will always be on the hook for players not playing for them and adding debt for future years which the league is trying to prevent. The league offered 300 million including one hundred of new money this week to try to make this palatable to the players. Fehr said "ok..we will take the money but we will not move on contract length or making all the salary to be part of cap over 5 years for new team and 7 years for team retaining a player." That is what got the owners and Bettman so ticked....

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12-07-2012, 11:50 AM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
The circumstances surrounding the baseball strike have no parallel with the current situation.

Amusing that just because Fehr is involved that a walkout is on the table is disingenuous.
How so? In both cases the CBA had expired. The owners started the season and then the players walked, so what exactly would have stopped the NHL players from doing the same thing? Their love of the game / fans? They've shown how much they care for both already.

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12-07-2012, 12:10 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
How so? In both cases the CBA had expired. The owners started the season and then the players walked, so what exactly would have stopped the NHL players from doing the same thing? Their love of the game / fans? They've shown how much they care for both already.
Before the baseball strike, the owners had just been caught colluding to hold down player salaries, and had to pay an almost $300M fine. (Not an insubstantial sum considering player salaries of those days.) On top of that, the owners started witholding pension payments, and taking other punitive measures.

People also tend to forget that a strike was the only recourse left because of MLB's antitrust exemption. Consider the recent NBA and NFL lockouts. Once the players union decertifies, they can then file anti-trust lawsuits against the league, and take their chances that way. (This is an option that the NHLPA is considering too.) The NBA and NFL players used this tactic as a negotiating tool, and presumably the NHLPA would plan on doing the same thing.

MLB players had no such option. Since MLB has a congressional antitrust exemption, the players can't decertify and sue on antitrust grounds; the lawsuits would be thrown out. The players had two options; Continue to play and let the owners do whatever they wanted, or strike to force negotiations.

Antitrust laws are the key here. The players, under Fehr's leadership, have no reason to strike.

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12-07-2012, 12:15 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
Knowing Fehr's history there's no way the owners could risk starting the season and then taking the chance of the players walking away in the middle ie the previous baseball strike.

The players unlike more people have plenty of opportunity to go ply their wares elsewhere in the world, hence the number you see playing overseas. Your average worker doesn't have the means to pack up and move in the hope of getting another job.
You're right. The average worker has the option to find a different job within their own city, or at least within their own state. An option not available to hockey players. If NHLers want to continue playing outside of the NHL, they are essentially forced to move overseas.

You act like it's some kind of luxury that they have to move overseas to continue their career. Not to mention the fact that most players may not even be able to find jobs overseas. Just look at the number of players that struggled to this year. We've heard the stories about Alexander Semin essentially playing for free, same for Rinne, etc.

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12-07-2012, 12:19 PM
  #387
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I'm hoping once the emotion of the moment subsides they get back at it. Though I'm not sure how long that will take.

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12-07-2012, 02:15 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Thank you Scottie for backing what I've said was the hardliners agenda. Drag out the negotiations as long as possible so the season is in the balance (into January). Then the players feel they will have the leverage and the owners will need the players to make a deal.
What a fool. Upshall's quotes just show the disconnect between players and everyone else these days.

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12-07-2012, 02:29 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Buffalo87 View Post
You're right. The average worker has the option to find a different job within their own city, or at least within their own state. An option not available to hockey players. If NHLers want to continue playing outside of the NHL, they are essentially forced to move overseas.

You act like it's some kind of luxury that they have to move overseas to continue their career. Not to mention the fact that most players may not even be able to find jobs overseas. Just look at the number of players that struggled to this year. We've heard the stories about Alexander Semin essentially playing for free, same for Rinne, etc.
I'm sure NHLers could find work in their own cities. It may not pay six or seven figures....


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12-07-2012, 04:55 PM
  #390
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Some miscellany.

1. Lightning beat reporter Damian Cristodero interviewed B.J. Crombeen. Among other things , regarding the reports that Fehr urged players to hold out for more : "I can say with 100 percent certainty that is 100 percent false"

https://twitter.com/LightningTimes/s...63185742700546

2. Interesting commentary on why the PA objects to the term limits, and how it could have a trickle down effect on middle tier player contracts.

http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=5098

Before anyone craps on this guy again, I only saw this because Bob McKenzie tweeted it. If McKenzie says it's legit, I say it's legit.

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12-08-2012, 09:13 PM
  #391
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This past week indicates to me that the NHL was hoping to have a distinct advantage in closing a deal with owners directly negotiating with players. Quite obviously, a deal would not have been signed unless the Fehrs eventually became involved again. If in fact owners balked at that idea, or simply insisted on their package proposal being accepted without modification, then it truly was a waste of time and apparently nothing more than a tactic trying to get the best deal out of less informed negotiators (players).

It seems the biggest cog in negotiations now is contract term limits. I can't recall this issue being a central complaint prior to October. Who was ever talking about how long contracts were ruining the game? It was all about big dollars and circumventing cap structures. No other league has such term limits in their CBAs. If almost everything else could be compromised on except this, and the owners drew a line in the sand over a 5 year limit, I can't help but think they are being unreasonable or willing to wait out players at the expense of the game. Since when should contract term limits be an issue worth ending a season over? I understand the desire behind them, and that there are other issues not ironed out yet, but it seems to have taken center stage this week. Seems like a rather ridiculous mandate by owners if they could actually manage to keep contract dollars mostly consistent from season to season.

Bettman has said that the owners are negotiating against themselves, without a willing partner in the NHLPA. From my point of view, owners are simply trying to impose such hardline demands over contracting rights because they and their GMs can't control themselves and agree to reasonable and efficient contracts. They are their own worst enemies.

It's just like the players wanting to make certain rule or equipment changes that may hurt the game. If they could just stop trying to blind-side head shot each other (or the league imposes consistent suspensions that mean something) it wouldn't be an issue.

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12-08-2012, 11:42 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Some miscellany.

1. Lightning beat reporter Damian Cristodero interviewed B.J. Crombeen. Among other things , regarding the reports that Fehr urged players to hold out for more : "I can say with 100 percent certainty that is 100 percent false"
Well even the supposed source within the PA didn't say that message came from Fehr himself but "trickled down" from other players. Even if it's not true I can see why Fehr would say this- the owners keep offering more the longer the players hold out. At some point they have to sign a deal though if they want a paycheck this season. That point has to be coming up soon.

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Originally Posted by Sabresfansince1980 View Post
This past week indicates to me that the NHL was hoping to have a distinct advantage in closing a deal with owners directly negotiating with players. Quite obviously, a deal would not have been signed unless the Fehrs eventually became involved again. If in fact owners balked at that idea, or simply insisted on their package proposal being accepted without modification, then it truly was a waste of time and apparently nothing more than a tactic trying to get the best deal out of less informed negotiators (players).

It seems the biggest cog in negotiations now is contract term limits. I can't recall this issue being a central complaint prior to October. Who was ever talking about how long contracts were ruining the game? It was all about big dollars and circumventing cap structures. No other league has such term limits in their CBAs. If almost everything else could be compromised on except this, and the owners drew a line in the sand over a 5 year limit, I can't help but think they are being unreasonable or willing to wait out players at the expense of the game. Since when should contract term limits be an issue worth ending a season over? I understand the desire behind them, and that there are other issues not ironed out yet, but it seems to have taken center stage this week. Seems like a rather ridiculous mandate by owners if they could actually manage to keep contract dollars mostly consistent from season to season.

Bettman has said that the owners are negotiating against themselves, without a willing partner in the NHLPA. From my point of view, owners are simply trying to impose such hardline demands over contracting rights because they and their GMs can't control themselves and agree to reasonable and efficient contracts. They are their own worst enemies.

It's just like the players wanting to make certain rule or equipment changes that may hurt the game. If they could just stop trying to blind-side head shot each other (or the league imposes consistent suspensions that mean something) it wouldn't be an issue.
I believe the NBA has some sort of limit on contract extensions but I could be wrong. Anyways, yes something has to be done to control contracts because in a free market system teams will always spend more to move closer to a championship on the ice. That's just the way it works whether anyone likes it or not. It's not good or bad. However, this free market disadvantages many teams and causes them to lose money, so restrictions have to be put in place to keep the league healthy. It's like in a free market economic system, the purpose of businesses are to make the greatest profit possible. That's not good or bad, that's just how it works. If they can make a bigger profit by employing kids or paying employees 25 cents and hour, they will do it. That's why restrictions are necessary to prevent those things.

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12-09-2012, 10:10 AM
  #393
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The nhl wants to go to a fifty fifty split because they are losing money with many franchises and as can be seen other sports organizations have settled at that. The players want to be "made whole" for the 7 % loss overall-basically to high priced help who squeezed every last nickel they could get. The last proposal by the nhl offered among other things, 300 million dollars--in effect eschewing the 50-50 split for several years--BUT in exchange wanted a longer contract so that the % did get to the fifty fifty level for some of the length of the CBA. They also wanted to prevent teams loading up on the type of contracts that caused these problems-back diving, cap twisting etc. The NHLPA said per Fehr-great we will take the money but now we reject the terms you want-it is good we are so close! It may be sharp bargaining and what Fehr is known for but it destroyed the good will the owners in the room had tried to nurture with the extra $100 million etc.

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12-10-2012, 08:52 AM
  #394
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Per TBN
Looks like things are settling down and they may meet sometime this week.

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12-10-2012, 02:30 PM
  #395
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Here's sufficient reason to hate pretty much everyone involved.


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12-10-2012, 02:50 PM
  #396
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I don't really need any more reasons.

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12-10-2012, 03:33 PM
  #397
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I don't know about the other sports ....

The NHL commish is doing the bidding of the owners. So any hate for Bettman is really just hate for all the NHL owners as a group.

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12-10-2012, 04:15 PM
  #398
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David Stern has another decade of tenure under his belt with under half of the games lost. The owners you work for are part of it, but it's not like Stern hasn't dealt with his own share of issues. The difference is, one of them is capable and willing to make dynamic and controversial decisions, the other isn't.

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12-10-2012, 04:18 PM
  #399
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Anybody else feeling pretty much like they won't come back? I can't tell you how relieving it feels to not base my happiness on these clowns. To hear that Tyler Myers is injured and realize I. Don't. Give. A. ****.

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12-10-2012, 04:25 PM
  #400
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It is nice to ignore the idiots with no accountability in our backyard because idiots with no accountability are ruining it for everyone.

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