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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VIIII: "We're Close" "We're Not Close" Edition

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Old
12-07-2012, 01:14 AM
  #151
Loffen
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**** the PA, **** the league. ****ing ****tards.

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12-07-2012, 01:52 AM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
Tell me if I have this pretty close to right:

Some of the owners got their way and got the hard liners to give them a chance to end this fiasco. They lay their cards on the table. But Fehr sees that as blinking. He steps in and tells the players that they need to take advantage of that opportunity. Bettman may say that stuff is off the table but Fehr figures he knows whats really important to the owners now and how far they were willing to go to end this.

A very ballsy move....but a dangerous one. All the owners have been hard lined now. I think I'm pretty close. This will be interesting.
The owner laid out a take it or leave it offer. Players countered. Everything else is trumped up drama.

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12-07-2012, 02:23 AM
  #153
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They are so close now. Pretty sure ther'll be a season.

Can't believe they would screw this up over minor details.

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12-07-2012, 02:43 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Loffen View Post
**** the PA, **** the league. ****ing ****tards.
Wow all this havoc even got LoFFen to post something. Haven't seen you around in a long time LoFFen. But then again its hard seeing you post because all it does is make me think of GDT.

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12-07-2012, 02:49 AM
  #155
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The NHL/NHLPA should take down some pointers from this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=898OUCyBulM

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Old
12-07-2012, 03:25 AM
  #156
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The latest from Brooks:

Quote:
The commissioner apparently could not understand why the players insisted Fehr be able to rejoin the talks after he and Bettman had been excluded by mutual consent on Tuesday and Wednesday.

The reason is simple. The owners, according to several sources, attempted to pin the players down on agreeing to a CBA, much like an ADA offering a plea bargain to a defendant without representation.“I was told on Wednesday night [by an owner] that if we brought Don back in, that would be a deal-breaker,” said Winnipeg Jets defenseman Ron Hainsey, who is part of the NHLPA negotiating committee.
Quote:
This turn of events was not unexpected. Neither should anyone overact to it. Bettman and the Board are attempting to reprise the 2004-05 divide-and-conquer strategy that yielded dividends when players overthrew Bob Goodenow.

“We know what they’re up to,” a source on the players’ side told The Post. “They’re trying to create dissent within the union. They’re trying to scare us into makiing a deal.”
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_...7ht6pFDPs4cTnN

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12-07-2012, 04:50 AM
  #157
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In the 2 year NBA transition,the punitive luxury taxes don't begin until the 3rd year. Bettman said in the summer he wanted the NBA deal. 50-50. The NBA deal included more than that.

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12-07-2012, 06:50 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Loffen View Post
**** the PA, **** the league. ****ing ****tards.
Couldn't have said it better....

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12-07-2012, 06:52 AM
  #159
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Donald Fehr is a greedy troll

Tried to ruin Baseball and almost succeeded, now taking his turn at Hockey....

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12-07-2012, 07:06 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Beacon View Post
Normally, I'm all up for the capitalist argument, but here's a problem here: in a regular union-owner negotiations, the union wants cost certainty. The union demands deals with corporations and governments that guarantee them things 40 years into the future (like pensions) regardless of what happens with company profits or government tax revenue.

But here it is different. It isn't the union that is demanding guarantees. If it were up to the union, there would be a libertarian-style free market.

Instead, it is the owners who are demanding cost certainty and guarantees that they can never fail, no matter how miserably they run their operations. Socialism at its best.

I'm not fond of the "Occupy Wall Street" crowd, but listening to these rich guys demand socialism makes me understand that OWS argument. These billionaires talk about capitalism and the American Way when it comes to paying nothing to their middle class workers, and then turn around and pull this socialist crap on the players.

What hypocrites! If we have a socialist guarantee that these owners can't fail, then how about they give a guarantee to their workers that they can never get fired and must make enough money to cover all their expenses, no matter how reasonable or unreasonable?!

How about from now on they pay enough taxes that nobody will ever fail in life? Why should they be guaranteed to make a profit, but not to guarantee an income to the homeless and all others? If anything, billionaires are more able to take a loss that the guy sleeping on the street now.

These owners are the socialist ones. I'm a Republican. I'm very active in Republican politics. But holy crap, the wealthy need to stop demanding corporate welfare and guarantee of success every time it benefits them.
I'm glad you posted this. It's funny how this situation, and situations similar to it, often end up having us take stances counter to our "real life" beliefs. Throughout these negotiations, I've taken a very free market approach, with the belief that these owners need to fend for themselves. No one should prop them up, and if they fail they do not deserve any type of assistance or safety net. Which as a liberal, is counter to my overarching views on the way society ought to work. It's an interesting juxtaposition of beliefs.

I become so heavily invested in sports negotiations because I'm a union man through and through, and though these guys are far from your Average Joe, they still face the same types of managerial scare tactics and bullying that my members face on a regular basis. So in principle I side with the NHLPA.

While I "root" for the players here, and would love nothing more than for them to crush the owners and take them to the cleaners, in my heart of hearts I just want what's best for the game. In the same way I always fight tooth and nail for my members, but don't want to agree to a deal that will bankrupt the company or cause job cuts at the municipality.

Don Fehr, for all the hatred he's been receiving in the past few weeks, is a true labor guy. He really does have the best interests of his players in mind. People may disagree with his methods and think that what he's demanding isn't truly what's best for his membership or the game in general, but that's a matter of opinion. He's trying to do his job as best he can. And I think at the end of the day, based on his past successes, he's going to come out with a deal that's as favorable as possible for his guys.

Bettman is trying to do his job as well. I don't fault him for that. I happen to think he's a slime ball and a bully, but I don't truly fault him for these negotiations. Unfortunately, what you see here is typical in labor negotiations. We're all fans of the game and just want to see it return, and it sucks when we're all forced to remember it's a business and neither side gives one **** about us. It's just the reality though, so I try not to get too upset.

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12-07-2012, 07:10 AM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mio41 View Post
Tried to ruin Baseball and almost succeeded, now taking his turn at Hockey....
i don't like him, but to be fair, everything he's done so far (up to wednesday when i think he screwed the pooch), has gotten his players a better deal. he's gotten the league to give more up.

i just don't think the league is going to bend anymore and he made a royal mistake on wednesday by telling the players the league will cave more

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12-07-2012, 07:14 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by NYGRYK21 View Post
**** Fehr.
Don't read too much into that quote. The NHLPA membership is over 700 strong, and it's inevitable that there will be dissenting voices. It's just the reality of a union. If there were 700 owners you'd be able to get some to speak off the record about their dissatisfaction with Bettman.

You see a quote on this page from another anonymous player that says they're aware that management is again attempting to divide and conquer and drive a wedge between the players and unions. Most of the guys should know what's up, especially the guys that were around for this the last time.

Fehr doesn't do anything without consulting the bargaining committee. He's not a dictator calling all the shots. That's not what his position entails. Ultimately the blame/praise falls on him, but he's not operating by himself here.

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12-07-2012, 07:24 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by robwrx04 View Post
I'm as libertarian/free market as you can get, but the problem with this situation is, the NHL is pretty much a monopoly. Players can't just decide to play in another league if they don't like their checks. Yeah they can go to Russia/Europe, but most would rather play in the NHL, even for less money.

I hate unions, I believe the best union is no union. But when there are no other alternatives that are readily available, then without a union, players would be taken advantage of.
Socialism works in sports because they are fictions. So things that don't work in the real world do work in, ya know, games.

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12-07-2012, 07:27 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I'm glad you posted this. It's funny how this situation, and situations similar to it, often end up having us take stances counter to our "real life" beliefs. Throughout these negotiations, I've taken a very free market approach, with the belief that these owners need to fend for themselves. No one should prop them up, and if they fail they do not deserve any type of assistance or safety net. Which as a liberal, is counter to my overarching views on the way society ought to work. It's an interesting juxtaposition of beliefs.

I become so heavily invested in sports negotiations because I'm a union man through and through, and though these guys are far from your Average Joe, they still face the same types of managerial scare tactics and bullying that my members face on a regular basis. So in principle I side with the NHLPA.

While I "root" for the players here, and would love nothing more than for them to crush the owners and take them to the cleaners, in my heart of hearts I just want what's best for the game. In the same way I always fight tooth and nail for my members, but don't want to agree to a deal that will bankrupt the company or cause job cuts at the municipality.

Don Fehr, for all the hatred he's been receiving in the past few weeks, is a true labor guy. He really does have the best interests of his players in mind. People may disagree with his methods and think that what he's demanding isn't truly what's best for his membership or the game in general, but that's a matter of opinion. He's trying to do his job as best he can. And I think at the end of the day, based on his past successes, he's going to come out with a deal that's as favorable as possible for his guys.

Bettman is trying to do his job as well. I don't fault him for that. I happen to think he's a slime ball and a bully, but I don't truly fault him for these negotiations. Unfortunately, what you see here is typical in labor negotiations. We're all fans of the game and just want to see it return, and it sucks when we're all forced to remember it's a business and neither side gives one **** about us. It's just the reality though, so I try not to get too upset.
Well said NYR2K2! I agree with every thing you said here!

Just curious, what trade are you in? I'm a union elevator guy myself.

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12-07-2012, 07:27 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
i don't like him, but to be fair, everything he's done so far (up to wednesday when i think he screwed the pooch), has gotten his players a better deal. he's gotten the league to give more up.

i just don't think the league is going to bend anymore and he made a royal mistake on wednesday by telling the players the league will cave more
At what cost thought? We're talking about a 50% paycut this year (at best, could be 100%) for what exactly? An additional 100M in make whole (50% paycut is a net loss of 950M)? The (hope) that the top players will not be limited to 5 yr deals?

For the vast majority of today's PA the outcome of this dispute is a net loss, where any incremental gains in negotiating are being offset by lost games.

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Old
12-07-2012, 07:37 AM
  #166
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http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/04/03/c...into-overtime/

All you need to know about Bettman

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12-07-2012, 07:40 AM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I'm glad you posted this. It's funny how this situation, and situations similar to it, often end up having us take stances counter to our "real life" beliefs. Throughout these negotiations, I've taken a very free market approach, with the belief that these owners need to fend for themselves. No one should prop them up, and if they fail they do not deserve any type of assistance or safety net. Which as a liberal, is counter to my overarching views on the way society ought to work. It's an interesting juxtaposition of beliefs.

I become so heavily invested in sports negotiations because I'm a union man through and through, and though these guys are far from your Average Joe, they still face the same types of managerial scare tactics and bullying that my members face on a regular basis. So in principle I side with the NHLPA.

While I "root" for the players here, and would love nothing more than for them to crush the owners and take them to the cleaners, in my heart of hearts I just want what's best for the game. In the same way I always fight tooth and nail for my members, but don't want to agree to a deal that will bankrupt the company or cause job cuts at the municipality.

Don Fehr, for all the hatred he's been receiving in the past few weeks, is a true labor guy. He really does have the best interests of his players in mind. People may disagree with his methods and think that what he's demanding isn't truly what's best for his membership or the game in general, but that's a matter of opinion. He's trying to do his job as best he can. And I think at the end of the day, based on his past successes, he's going to come out with a deal that's as favorable as possible for his guys.

Bettman is trying to do his job as well. I don't fault him for that. I happen to think he's a slime ball and a bully, but I don't truly fault him for these negotiations. Unfortunately, what you see here is typical in labor negotiations. We're all fans of the game and just want to see it return, and it sucks when we're all forced to remember it's a business and neither side gives one **** about us. It's just the reality though, so I try not to get too upset.
The owners offered up an extra 100 million and the "union" spit back in their face.

The "union" is destroying the league.

How's this for an idea. Write up a resume. Go get a job. On your own. Like a real man. Retain your job by doing it. You have federal laws protecting your rights. If you get fire or laid off...OH WELL. That's what its like to be an employee. You aren't guaranteed jack ****. Go out and find another job. Man up.

Your union crap you cram down our throats is equally as asinine as the lockout circus.

I'm a worker. With no representation. My income is completely dependent upon my give a damns.

Oh but hey, poor poor players. They have to make sacrifices in their fantasy world. Hundreds of thousands to tens of millions of dollars to play a game for six months out of the year isn't enough! They need more! They don't want contract term limits because that means they have to actually earn something later! Oh no!

Contracts = tied to CBA. No CBA = no contracts = no money. Don't like it, here's the door. Write up your resume and go find work elsewhere (Europe). Sound familiar? Gasp! They're EMPLOYEES. Gasp! Just like anyone else. Man the eff up and go earn your own keep.

Unions are garbage. And this particular one is destroying the game of hockey. Good job! Unite! United! Strong!...also unemployed, screw the guy who works in the mail room for the Minnesota Wild and his family! Union strong!

Disgusting.

Oh I know I know. The owners enforced the lockout. Again. Go find work elsewhere.


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Old
12-07-2012, 07:48 AM
  #168
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LOL. I don't even know where to begin. I don't think I'm shoving anything down anyone's throats, just sharing my opinion on things. Just like you.

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12-07-2012, 07:52 AM
  #169
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Well said NYR2K2! I agree with every thing you said here!

Just curious, what trade are you in? I'm a union elevator guy myself.
I worked previously for a local representing municipal employees, as well as a local representing health care workers. Now I'm back with a transportation union in their international office.

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12-07-2012, 07:54 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I'm glad you posted this. It's funny how this situation, and situations similar to it, often end up having us take stances counter to our "real life" beliefs. Throughout these negotiations, I've taken a very free market approach, with the belief that these owners need to fend for themselves. No one should prop them up, and if they fail they do not deserve any type of assistance or safety net. Which as a liberal, is counter to my overarching views on the way society ought to work. It's an interesting juxtaposition of beliefs.

I become so heavily invested in sports negotiations because I'm a union man through and through, and though these guys are far from your Average Joe, they still face the same types of managerial scare tactics and bullying that my members face on a regular basis. So in principle I side with the NHLPA.

While I "root" for the players here, and would love nothing more than for them to crush the owners and take them to the cleaners, in my heart of hearts I just want what's best for the game. In the same way I always fight tooth and nail for my members, but don't want to agree to a deal that will bankrupt the company or cause job cuts at the municipality.

Don Fehr, for all the hatred he's been receiving in the past few weeks, is a true labor guy. He really does have the best interests of his players in mind. People may disagree with his methods and think that what he's demanding isn't truly what's best for his membership or the game in general, but that's a matter of opinion. He's trying to do his job as best he can. And I think at the end of the day, based on his past successes, he's going to come out with a deal that's as favorable as possible for his guys.

Bettman is trying to do his job as well. I don't fault him for that. I happen to think he's a slime ball and a bully, but I don't truly fault him for these negotiations. Unfortunately, what you see here is typical in labor negotiations. We're all fans of the game and just want to see it return, and it sucks when we're all forced to remember it's a business and neither side gives one **** about us. It's just the reality though, so I try not to get too upset.

Ah, another voice of reason here.

I too am a union guy. Though (I'm retired now) I belonged to a union of highly skilled and well paid professionals, I was, in essence, still a worker.

As such, and as a life-long student of American History, I believe that the labor/union movement was one of the great and triumphant struggles in our history. In many ways, what we see in this dispute is typical of what has happened to labor in the last few decades and it is sad.

Though many players are millionaires, they too are workers and this dispute is a classic case of bosses vs workers and who is more entitled to the fruits of their effort, toil, and talent. I strongly come down on the side of the players though I realize that in the current climate a 50/50 split is equitable.

The Fehrs have done an outstanding job. They work for the players and their job here is resist givebacks and retain as much economic clout as possible. The NHL has never dealt with a real labor leader before, one well versed in the history and traditions of the labor movement. They have underestimated the Fehrs from the outset and still, as yesterday proves, have no idea how to deal with him. The NHL thought they would be able to run right over the union; an assumption based on what happened in 04-05. That underestimation is one of the major obstacles in this dispute. Until Bettman realizes that he is not going to bully Fehr into submission no matter how many hissy fits he (Bettman) throws, and that they are not going to undermine the Fehrs with the players, we will get nowhere.

I too, want what is good for the game and us, the fans who pay the freight. The players have given and given here and somewhere they need to draw a line in the sand. Daly's comment about contract length being "the hill we will die on" is a killer (as I said yesterday, it sounds like what could have been written on General Custer's tombstone). As much as I hate to say it, the union needs to give a bit more here, as does the league.

This has certainly been a horrible winter so far. God, do I miss the Rangers and the NHL! Though I remain 100% in favor of the union and blame the league 100% for this mess, I hope both sides, when they wake up this morning, realize just how pathetic yesterday was and can see a way to an agreement. I'm not hopeful and for that I still blame management.

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12-07-2012, 07:57 AM
  #171
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Can we move this thread to the politics board?

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12-07-2012, 08:06 AM
  #172
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Its not you personally.

I just have no time for these unions. Or anything like them. People hiding behind organizations to protect their rights. When there's already a system of federal laws, checks and balances that do that stuff already. The difference is its on the individual to obtain the knowledge of those rights on their own.

And what's funny is the next step for the player's union? Decertify! Abolish the union. And do exactly what I said. Earn your own keep. If they aren't good enough at their trade, they're out of a job. If they don't work hard enough at it, they're out of a job. Welcome to the real world at that point. Adapt or die.

NHL players received 57 percent of league revenues. Its not their league and its not their business. Maybe they shouldn't have decided to be hockey players if they're upset with it. Instead be a business man and start a business.

These players need a reality check. They're employees. They're paid for their unique skills. But that doesn't make them entitled to anything.

This whole "they're being taken from behind" is a sick joke. The amount of money they earn can set them and their family up for a good amount of time. Invest properly and Smarty. Don't buy million dollar mansions. Don't buy 100k sports cars. Several. Be smart with the money you earn. Live a LITTLE more humble.

Whatever. I'm done with it now. The NHL is potentially in for harsh reality. Go ahead and lose a season. Here's at least one less source of income. My money allocated elsewhere. I won't even acknowledge anything with an NHL logo on it.

Providence College already got my money for tonight's HE showdown against BC.

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12-07-2012, 08:10 AM
  #173
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Can we move this thread to the politics board?
Its probably my fault.

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12-07-2012, 08:13 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
i don't like him, but to be fair, everything he's done so far (up to wednesday when i think he screwed the pooch), has gotten his players a better deal. he's gotten the league to give more up.

i just don't think the league is going to bend anymore and he made a royal mistake on wednesday by telling the players the league will cave more
You hit it on the head.
Fehr can hold up all the other "take it or leave it" offers from the league to the players and say "See, I told you".

What he did yesterday was to initiate a high stakes game of chicken that I think he will lose (either lost season or players capitulating to league demands at some point).

I think the comments from the Leafs owner yesterday say it all. I really believe that thre owners believe Fehr has a hidden agenda. Perception is reality.

I think they dig in hard now. I wouldn't be surprised if that WAS the owners best offer and things start getting taken off the table now.

I hope I am wrong.

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12-07-2012, 08:16 AM
  #175
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Owners did not offer an extra $100m. If the owners interpret that sequence of events as splitting in their face, then they have done that to the players no less than 4 Times. This is a negotiation and the league is the most upset at the union accepting their model, restrictions and language except for a few years? You guys are smarter than that.

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