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Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
12-06-2012, 06:30 PM
  #176
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So the claim now is that the PCHA was a lesser league because they poached players from the NHA? Wouldn't stealing good players make them a more competitive league?
"The PCHA was a lesser league" is a blanket/overall assertion I made based on more than just a peculiar 3 year window, and with more than just one team in mind. I'll freely recognize that there was one team in the PCHA in any given window that proved competitive with the NHA - specifically, perhaps, the 1915-17 window (the war effect on these leagues having been explored already). I'll also point out that the "overall" strength of the league is being extrapolated from the success of that team by all of us who never actually had the chance to give either the "eye test". And while I also recognize how the league tables must suggest competitiveness across all 3 PCHA teams at any time, I call into scrutiny the same detail C1958 mentioned regarding how remaining regular season games were treated once the table was "decided".

Since the WCHL is obviously part of the picture, I'll also point out that PCHA games against the WCHL counted in the standings for the last couple of seasons the PCHA existed, which resulted in the Metropolitains leading the league with a losing record, suggesting the WCHL may, indeed, have been a "stronger" league. And remember, Chicago and Detroit didn't exactly prove super competitive in the early days of being added to the NHL fold, despite being strong in the WCHL. So, there's my rationale in a nutshell, I suppose. Just as importantly, I suppose, I think it's conceivable that the '70s WHA-NHL gap may actually have been similar (if not narrower) to (than) the '10/20s PCHA-NHA/NHL gap in loose/broad terms.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 12-06-2012 at 06:35 PM.
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12-06-2012, 06:32 PM
  #177
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NHL players who left for World War 2 were coddled in military units where they basically entertained the troops. But the fact is, they were not in the NHL. Fewer NHLers left during World War 1 and most of those who did leave did so for a year or less. But in World War 1, they did fight real battles.

If you actually look at the player rosters during the War years, it's quite obvious World War 2 had a greater affect on the talent pool. But you're right that we shouldn't ignore the affect of World War 1 where it has one.
Let's look at roster size - 1910s you had < 10 skaters per roster with a core of 5 or 6 skaters(NHA/PCHA) and 1 goalie, whereas 1940s you had a rotation of three lines, two defensive pairings and 1 goalie, app 16 player rosters.

The loss of a star player in the 1910' be it a move from one league to the other, injury, retirement or any reason had a much greater impact on a team.

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12-06-2012, 06:36 PM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
"The PCHA was a lesser league" is a blanket/overall assertion I made based on more than just a peculiar 3 year window, and with more than just one team in mind. I'll freely recognize that there was one team in the PCHA in any given window that proved competitive with the NHA - specifically, perhaps, the 1915-17 window (the war effect on these leagues having been explored already). I'll also point out that the "overall" strength of the league is being extrapolated from the success of that team by all of us who never actually had the chance to give either the "eye test". And while I also recognize how the league tables must suggest competitiveness across all 3 PCHA teams at any time, I call into scrutiny the same detail C1958 mentioned regarding how remaining regular season games were treated once the table was "decided".

Since the WCHL is obviously part of the picture, I'll also point out that PCHA games against the WCHL counted in the standings for the last couple of seasons the PCHA existed, which resulted in the Metropolitains leading the league with a losing record, suggesting the WCHL may, indeed, have been a "stronger" league. And remember, Chicago and Detroit didn't exactly prove super competitive in the early days of being added to the NHL fold, despite being strong in the WCHL. So, there's my rationale in a nutshell, I suppose.
Who was the one team? Seattle or Vancouver? Do the Rosebuds taking the Canadiens to 5 games in 1916 not count?

From 1918-1922 the Stanley Cup required 5/5 games to decide a winner, except '19 when it was canceled at 2-2.

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12-06-2012, 08:03 PM
  #179
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Doing some last minute research here...mostly focused on Hainsworth's Western League exploits...not sure if this info is already known or not...sorry if it's repeat stuff...

- Hainsworth was adjudged the best goalkeeper in the Western League in 1926

- An article from a playoff game in 1925 stated that Hap Holmes and George Hainsworth were "head and shoulders" above the rest of the goalies in the league. And finished 1 and 2 (Holmes, Hainsworth) in goals against average.

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12-06-2012, 08:18 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Posters who think the NHA/NHL was a superior league to the Western ones before 1926 really need to explain while slightly over half of the NHL's leading scorers in 1926-27 spent the previous season in the WHL (the successor to the WCHL after it absorbed the PCHA).
This line of reasoning fails to distinguish between the two sources of talent for the Western leagues.

The PCHA was started by Frank and Lester Patrick and lured players away from the NHA, whose owners were working together to limit player salaries. (One wonders what the Patrick brothers would be doing in this lockout situation if they were NHL players today.) The Canadian West was booming, and the players, like their fanbase, moved out west for economic opportunity. The players were directly drawn from Eastern sources, and can be compared to their Eastern counterparts with little trouble owing to the years they had spent in the same leagues in the early 1910s.

When the Western players came back East in 1926, many of them were born and/or raised on the Canadian prairies, where they learned to play. This was the source of much of the talent that made an impact in the NHL. Of the 6 top 10 scorers, 3 were developed in the West (Irvin, Fredrickson, Oliver all from Manitoba), and 2 moved west after the war for economic opportunity (Boucher went out for an RCMP position, Cook took a land grant in Saskatchewan for his war service.) Keats was the only player who had been an established star in the East before moving west.

What were the sources of players in the PCHA in Lehman's prime? Let's look at roughly the midpoint of his career, the 1916 season when he was 30 years old.

Goalies
East - Hugh Lehman, Hap Holmes
West - Fred McCulloch

Defencemen
East - Moose Johnson, Lester Patrick, Art Duncan, Bobby Rowe, Eddie Carpenter
West - Lloyd Cook, Del Irvine, SI Griffis

Forwards
East - Cyclone Taylor, Mickey Mackay, Ed Oatman, Jack Walker, Frank Foyston, Dubbie Kerr, Ken Mallen, Sibby Nichol
West - Tom Dunderdale, Charles Tobin, Bernie Morris, Cully Wilson, Ran McDonald, Jim Riley

While there was some Western talent in the PCHA, to my eye more of the star talent came from the East at that point.

So Lehman played his prime years in a PCHA dominated by Ontario players, and it isn't really relevant that some players from the prairies took the NHL by storm in 1926-27.

Another relevant comparison on league strength is the fact that in 1923-24, the PCHA and the WCHL played an interlocking schedule. WCHL teams were 17-5-2 against the PCHA teams*. The WCHL included Cook, Keats, Oliver, Gardiner, Irvin, Hainsworth, Hay, Simpson, Winkler - in fact, most of the Western players that made an impact on the NHL. The PCHA had Frank Boucher and Frank Fredrickson, but not much else for future NHL stars. Yeah, the PCHA was past it's best days, but the success of Western players in 1926 doesn't necessarily say much about Lehman's competition.

*Source http://hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.ca/...m-defence.html

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12-06-2012, 08:50 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
This line of reasoning fails to distinguish between the two sources of talent for the Western leagues.

The PCHA was started by Frank and Lester Patrick and lured players away from the NHA, whose owners were working together to limit player salaries. (One wonders what the Patrick brothers would be doing in this lockout situation if they were NHL players today.) The Canadian West was booming, and the players, like their fanbase, moved out west for economic opportunity. The players were directly drawn from Eastern sources, and can be compared to their Eastern counterparts with little trouble owing to the years they had spent in the same leagues in the early 1910s.

When the Western players came back East in 1926, many of them were born and/or raised on the Canadian prairies, where they learned to play. This was the source of much of the talent that made an impact in the NHL. Of the 6 top 10 scorers, 3 were developed in the West (Irvin, Fredrickson, Oliver all from Manitoba), and 2 moved west after the war for economic opportunity (Boucher went out for an RCMP position, Cook took a land grant in Saskatchewan for his war service.) Keats was the only player who had been an established star in the East before moving west.

What were the sources of players in the PCHA in Lehman's prime? Let's look at roughly the midpoint of his career, the 1916 season when he was 30 years old.

Goalies
East - Hugh Lehman, Hap Holmes
West - Fred McCulloch

Defencemen
East - Moose Johnson, Lester Patrick, Art Duncan, Bobby Rowe, Eddie Carpenter
West - Lloyd Cook, Del Irvine, SI Griffis

Forwards
East - Cyclone Taylor, Mickey Mackay, Ed Oatman, Jack Walker, Frank Foyston, Dubbie Kerr, Ken Mallen, Sibby Nichol
West - Tom Dunderdale, Charles Tobin, Bernie Morris, Cully Wilson, Ran McDonald, Jim Riley

While there was some Western talent in the PCHA, to my eye more of the star talent came from the East at that point.

So Lehman played his prime years in a PCHA dominated by Ontario players, and it isn't really relevant that some players from the prairies took the NHL by storm in 1926-27.

Another relevant comparison on league strength is the fact that in 1923-24, the PCHA and the WCHL played an interlocking schedule. WCHL teams were 17-5-2 against the PCHA teams*. The WCHL included Cook, Keats, Oliver, Gardiner, Irvin, Hainsworth, Hay, Simpson, Winkler - in fact, most of the Western players that made an impact on the NHL. The PCHA had Frank Boucher and Frank Fredrickson, but not much else for future NHL stars. Yeah, the PCHA was past it's best days, but the success of Western players in 1926 doesn't necessarily say much about Lehman's competition.

*Source http://hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.ca/...m-defence.html
Thanks for going through this. Perhaps the WCHL with its prairie talent is not directly relatable to the PCHA, but isn't it to Lehman? Wasn't he considered the best goalie "out West," which would include the WCHL? When the former President of the Regina WCHL team was lavishing praise on Charlie Gardiner in the press, "even better than Hugh Lehman" was the phrase he used. Not a WCHL goalie, Hugh Lehman

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12-06-2012, 09:03 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Thanks for going through this. Perhaps the WCHL with its prairie talent is not directly relatable to the PCHA, but isn't it to Lehman? Wasn't he considered the best goalie "out West," which would include the WCHL? When the former President of the Regina WCHL team was lavishing praise on Charlie Gardiner in the press, "even better than Hugh Lehman" was the phrase he used. Not a WCHL goalie, Hugh Lehman
Hugh Lehman had played in Saskatchewan while Charlie Gardiner had played JR and SR hockey in Manitoba. We are looking at visible or familiar comparibles for the local hockey fans as opposed to absolute comparables across the hockey world as it was.

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12-06-2012, 09:10 PM
  #183
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Doing some last minute research here...mostly focused on Hainsworth's Western League exploits...not sure if this info is already known or not...sorry if it's repeat stuff...

- Hainsworth was adjudged the best goalkeeper in the Western League in 1926

- An article from a playoff game in 1925 stated that Hap Holmes and George Hainsworth were "head and shoulders" above the rest of the goalies in the league. And finished 1 and 2 (Holmes, Hainsworth) in goals against average.
See post 29 of this thread: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...ht=retroactive

Hap Holmes (who regularly finished behind Lehman in the PCHA) was WCHL 1st Team All Star in 1925. Hainsworth was 1st Team WHL All Star in 1926. Bascially confirms what you said. Though it's definitely noteworthy that those two were considered "head and shoulders" above everyone

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12-06-2012, 09:21 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Thanks for going through this. Perhaps the WCHL with its prairie talent is not directly relatable to the PCHA, but isn't it to Lehman? Wasn't he considered the best goalie "out West," which would include the WCHL? When the former President of the Regina WCHL team was lavishing praise on Charlie Gardiner in the press, "even better than Hugh Lehman" was the phrase he used. Not a WCHL goalie, Hugh Lehman
Oh yeah, from everything I've read they thought the world of Lehman out west. I've no doubt he was the best goaltender that played in those western leagues. Although there doesn't seem to have been a lot of competition out there beyond fellow transplanted Ontarian Hap Holmes. The first top goalies who grew up in Canada's west were Tiny Thompson and Charlie Gardiner, from the generation after Lehman.

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12-06-2012, 09:27 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
See post 29 of this thread: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...ht=retroactive

Hap Holmes ([b]who regularly finished behind Lehman in the PCHA[b]) was WCHL 1st Team All Star in 1925. Hainsworth was 1st Team WHL All Star in 1926. Bascially confirms what you said. Though it's definitely noteworthy that those two were considered "head and shoulders" above everyone
According to the PCHA's one-man referee crew, Mickey Ion, who picked the all-star teams himself* and chose Lehman as the first team all-star in 10 of 13 years.

Of course there is other evidence that supports Lehman's reputation, but unlike other all-star teams this one is not the result of a group consensus.

*I know you know this, just adding to your point.

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12-06-2012, 09:34 PM
  #186
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Oh yeah, from everything I've read they thought the world of Lehman out west. I've no doubt he was the best goaltender that played in those western leagues. Although there doesn't seem to have been a lot of competition out there beyond fellow transplanted Ontarian Hap Holmes. The first top goalies who grew up in Canada's west were Tiny Thompson and Charlie Gardiner, from the generation after Lehman.
Thompson was from B.C - joined confederation in 1871. Gardiner from Manitoba-joined confederation in 1870,Saskatchewan and Alberta provinces that joined confederation in 1905 took longer to produce hockey players and goalies. Insufficient population and infra structure.

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12-06-2012, 09:54 PM
  #187
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Thompson was from B.C - joined confederation in 1871. Gardiner from Manitoba-joined confederation in 1870,Saskatchewan and Alberta provinces that joined confederation in 1905 took longer to produce hockey players and goalies. Insufficient population and infra structure.
I believe Thompson was born in BC but grew up in Calgary. He was among the very first star NHL players to grow up in Alberta or Saskatchewan, along with Eddie Shore. (In fact his younger brother Paul was the first Alberta-born NHLer.)

Manitoba hockey was advanced enough to produce star players in the 1910s. Dick Irvin, Joe Simpson, and Frank Fredrickson were all Manitoba stars a decade before Gardiner. Hal Winkler was the best Manitoba goaltender of this generation, but wasn't in Lehman's class. I guess we could name Hec Fowler as another Western goalie of that generation (from Saskatchewan). But none of these Western goalies appear to have reached the level of the best Ontario and Quebec-born goaltenders (including Lehman) until Gardiner and Thompson arrived.

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12-06-2012, 10:14 PM
  #188
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I believe Thompson was born in BC but grew up in Calgary. He was among the very first star NHL players to grow up in Alberta or Saskatchewan, along with Eddie Shore. (In fact his younger brother Paul was the first Alberta-born NHLer.)

Manitoba hockey was advanced enough to produce star players in the 1910s. Dick Irvin, Joe Simpson, and Frank Fredrickson were all Manitoba stars a decade before Gardiner. Hal Winkler was the best Manitoba goaltender of this generation, but wasn't in Lehman's class. I guess we could name Hec Fowler as another Western goalie of that generation (from Saskatchewan). But none of these Western goalies appear to have reached the level of the best Ontario and Quebec-born goaltenders (including Lehman) until Gardiner and Thompson arrived.
Manitoba had solid hockey in the 19th century, the prairies and B.C. came much later. Maritime teams challenged for the SC before Alberta, Saskatchewan and B.C.

Goalies need to play against quality skaters to develop.

The early years of the Pacific and Western leagues say a large number of eastern players and goalies. In many ways - Boucher, Joliat,Hainsworth, being examples they were developmental leagues.

Lehman was the only one who stuck around out west. Others - goalies and players, eventually came back east

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12-06-2012, 10:41 PM
  #189
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I'm a tiny bit surprised at how much disdain was shown for Tiny Thompson. In my 11th hour research to try to rationale things a little better, Thompson seemed to be regarded quite highly. Called the "greatest goaltender of the modern era" (1940). I'm assuming that means since the forward pass was introduced and therefore his competition was limited...but he must have been held in some esteem for some to go out of their way to recognize him like that. By comparison, Hainsworth seems to get little in the way of fanfare. Though, in the Western League reports that I read, he seemed to be held in higher acclaim. Which is singular, anecdotal evidence - but minorly interesting nonetheless - that the Western League might not have been so hot relative to the Eastern circuit...it's not cold, hard evidence...but given the timeframe, we're in the business of inference...

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12-06-2012, 11:22 PM
  #190
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Ottawa was the best of a weakened NHA - WWI. see previous post.

1914 dates are pre WWI(28 July 1914 – 11 November 1918) do not matter.
Ottawa's strength was their defense with 65 GA in 20 games, while the 2nd best was 81. Vancouver kept on scoring against them as they had down the stretch against the PCHA. This doesn't fit with your claim of why scoring jumped in the PCHA.

The 1914 game was just to show that not many games were cancelled. Some where played as regular season games, as in 1914, and some were played as exhibitions, but most were played. Wiki is using Coleman as their source, and he didn't get it 100% correct.

Competitive balance?

Winning percentage of top team NHA, PCHA, WCHL/WHL

YearNHA/NHLPCHAWCHL/WHL
1909-10.917--
1910-11.812--
1911-12.556.600-
1912-13.800.667-
1913-14.650.625-
1914-15.700.765-
1915-16.688.722-
1916-17.750.667-
1917-18.591.611-
1918-19.667.600-
1919-20.792.545-
1920-21.625.542-
1921-22.625.521.604
1922-23.604.583.650
1923-24.667.467.617
1924-25.650-.607
1925-26.722-.633

In 10 of 15 seasons the NHA leader had the highest W%.

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12-06-2012, 11:52 PM
  #191
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I'm a tiny bit surprised at how much disdain was shown for Tiny Thompson. In my 11th hour research to try to rationale things a little better, Thompson seemed to be regarded quite highly. Called the "greatest goaltender of the modern era" (1940). I'm assuming that means since the forward pass was introduced and therefore his competition was limited...but he must have been held in some esteem for some to go out of their way to recognize him like that. By comparison, Hainsworth seems to get little in the way of fanfare. Though, in the Western League reports that I read, he seemed to be held in higher acclaim. Which is singular, anecdotal evidence - but minorly interesting nonetheless - that the Western League might not have been so hot relative to the Eastern circuit...it's not cold, hard evidence...but given the timeframe, we're in the business of inference...
Posts like these are why I usually wait till the last minute to vote.

I don't know about you guys, but I have been really bad in this project about letting research and argument sit on the back burner until the PM goes out for everyone to start sending in votes.

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12-07-2012, 01:14 AM
  #192
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Mike, who called Thompson the greatest of the modern era and what was the context?

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12-07-2012, 03:30 AM
  #193
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Atleast Jim Hendy who was New York Rangers publicity man and editor of the National Hockey League Guide, thought Thompson was the best goalie of the 30īs.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...y+lehman&hl=en

Here is another calling him a best goalie of modern hockey, but itīs a retirement speech so its possible that there is some exaggeration involved.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...greatest&hl=en

I would also add few points about his early career. Edmonton Eskimos were very intrested about Thompson in 1924 "offering him double the amount that has been offered him by several other clubs".

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...neapolis&hl=en

Thompson decided to go Duluth Hornets which played in USAHA. In 1924-1925 (If I remember right) he was considered "with Worters easily the class of the league" (I canīt find the source anymore).

in 1925 he "defected" to Minneapolis Millers (in CHL) which was gathering a strong team. Atleast book called Before The Stars: Early Major League Hockey And The St. Paul Athletic Club Team suggest that Thompson was the best goalie in league." Tiny Thompson may have been the best goalie in league, but he was off his game when..." Most notable competiton was Gardiner, Flat Walsh and Joe Miller. All of them got the taste of NHL before him.

So I donīt think itīs that far fetched to say that he could have been a atleast fine starter in big leagues even 3-4 years before he was bought by Bruins.

(OT Most of these searches has originally made to complitely different project so thats why I donīt have all the sources anymore)

edit. changed pro to big leagues. Millers was pro team.


Last edited by Sanf: 12-07-2012 at 07:41 AM.
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12-07-2012, 05:06 AM
  #194
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I wanna see the results. Have you postponed them?

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12-07-2012, 06:08 AM
  #195
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Nha/pcha

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Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Ottawa's strength was their defense with 65 GA in 20 games, while the 2nd best was 81. Vancouver kept on scoring against them as they had down the stretch against the PCHA. This doesn't fit with your claim of why scoring jumped in the PCHA.

The 1914 game was just to show that not many games were cancelled. Some where played as regular season games, as in 1914, and some were played as exhibitions, but most were played. Wiki is using Coleman as their source, and he didn't get it 100% correct.

Competitive balance?

Winning percentage of top team NHA, PCHA, WCHL/WHL

YearNHA/NHLPCHAWCHL/WHL
1909-10.917--
1910-11.812--
1911-12.556.600-
1912-13.800.667-
1913-14.650.625-
1914-15.700.765-
1915-16.688.722-
1916-17.750.667-
1917-18.591.611-
1918-19.667.600-
1919-20.792.545-
1920-21.625.542-
1921-22.625.521.604
1922-23.604.583.650
1923-24.667.467.617
1924-25.650-.607
1925-26.722-.633

In 10 of 15 seasons the NHA leader had the highest W%.
1914-15 NHA was a six team league vs a three team PCHA, the NHA was competitive to the end, Ottawa and the Wanderers were tied at the top:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914%E2%80%9315_NHA_season

regardless of the rationalizing, the integrity of the PCHA schedules/seasons remains questionable. Games were cancelled. Unlike baseball where weather causes postponements that are not re-scheduled.

Vancouver averaged 8.66GF/G against Ottawa, not 12GF/G. Still an indication that Ottawa and Benedict were not that strong or good- benefiting from a WWI weakened league and injuries - Newsy Lalonde missed two thirds of the season.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...lalonne01.html

With Lalonde in 1915-16 the Canadiens finished first.

Competitive, in the six head to head seasons NHA/PCHA your chart shows a 3-3 split.Extending it to the NHL produces the difference. Fact remains the west never won the SC in the east, while the east won SCs out west.

1914-15 Vancouver Millionaires were a one season team, built for a SC run on home turf. They pulled it off. The rest of the league was rather iffy that season.

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12-07-2012, 07:44 AM
  #196
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I wanna see the results. Have you postponed them?
I think seventieslord said that he'd only have spotty access to the internet these last few days due to some personal business. But he's committed - to the say the least - to all these projects and what not, so I'm sure it won't be too long before you see something. Provided there's no unforeseen problem.

@tdmm: I think sanf fulfilled the answer sufficiently before I could. I'm not taking it to the moon with Thompson, but I came away with a better feeling of Worters > Thompson > Hainsworth

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12-07-2012, 09:48 AM
  #197
BM67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
1914-15 NHA was a six team league vs a three team PCHA, the NHA was competitive to the end, Ottawa and the Wanderers were tied at the top:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914%E2%80%9315_NHA_season

regardless of the rationalizing, the integrity of the PCHA schedules/seasons remains questionable. Games were cancelled. Unlike baseball where weather causes postponements that are not re-scheduled.

Vancouver averaged 8.66GF/G against Ottawa, not 12GF/G. Still an indication that Ottawa and Benedict were not that strong or good- benefiting from a WWI weakened league and injuries - Newsy Lalonde missed two thirds of the season.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...lalonne01.html

With Lalonde in 1915-16 the Canadiens finished first.

Competitive, in the six head to head seasons NHA/PCHA your chart shows a 3-3 split.Extending it to the NHL produces the difference. Fact remains the west never won the SC in the east, while the east won SCs out west.

1914-15 Vancouver Millionaires were a one season team, built for a SC run on home turf. They pulled it off. The rest of the league was rather iffy that season.
Does the NHA have more integrity than the PCHA?

How many teams left in the middle of the season in the PCHA? None.

The NHA went from a 6 team league to a 3 team league in 2 seasons. The Shamrocks, Blueshirts, Bulldogs and Wanderers all came and went before the first NHL season was over.

The best defensive team in the NHA gave up 8.66 g/gp vs Vancouver in 3 games. The uncompetitive Portland and Victoria gave up 10 and 8.66 in their last 3 games vs Vancouver.

Vancouver lost Nighbor and Mallen, and Mackay's production fell off due to injury, but they still led the PCHA in GF in 1915-16.

The 1915-16 Canadiens took 5 games (3-2) to beat Portland, with Tommy Murray who? in net, for the Cup. They only out scored them 15 to 13.

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12-07-2012, 11:23 AM
  #198
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League Integrity

Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Does the NHA have more integrity than the PCHA?

How many teams left in the middle of the season in the PCHA? None.

The NHA went from a 6 team league to a 3 team league in 2 seasons. The Shamrocks, Blueshirts, Bulldogs and Wanderers all came and went before the first NHL season was over.

The best defensive team in the NHA gave up 8.66 g/gp vs Vancouver in 3 games. The uncompetitive Portland and Victoria gave up 10 and 8.66 in their last 3 games vs Vancouver.

Vancouver lost Nighbor and Mallen, and Mackay's production fell off due to injury, but they still led the PCHA in GF in 1915-16.

The 1915-16 Canadiens took 5 games (3-2) to beat Portland, with Tommy Murray who? in net, for the Cup. They only out scored them 15 to 13.
Wanderers rink burned down.

NHL, PCHA, NHA regularly lost teams at various points - no big deal. Likewise the WHA including in season, producing canceled games.

The 1915-16 SC results speak to the 1915 results very clearly.

Specifically Vancouver could not beat Portland in 1916 even though they faced Tommy Murray in goal. Montreal did.

5 game SC final produced 28 goals - played in the east, or 5.6 GPG.

The loss of Nighbor is interesting. He wound up in Ottawa. Ottawa was better defensively with Benedict and Nighbor in 1915- 16 3.00 GAA vs 3.25 without Nighbour.

So the loss of Nighbor impacted Vancouver and Hugh Lehman.

Throw in the 1917 SC finals - out west, and you see the return to high scoring - 34 goals in 4 games or 8.5 GPG.

Between 1914 and 1922 the SC Final featured the NHA/NHL and PCHA champions with rules alternating game to game. Home league had the odd game rule advantage. The GPG broken down by rules is interesting.

E = SC final in the east. W = SC final in the west, GPG - NHA or NHL rules / GPG - PCHA rules,

1914 E 5 GPG / 11 GPG
1915 W 11 GPG / 11.5 GPG
1916 E 4.67 GPG / 7.00 GPG
1917 W 8.5 GPG / 8.5 GPG
1918 E 6.67 GPG / 9.5 GPG
1919 W 6.50 GPG / 7.67 GPG
1920 E 5.3 GPG / 5.0 GPG
1921 W 6 GPG / 4 GPG
1922 E 5.3 GPG / 4.5 GPG.

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