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With Fehr end-around, owners hit new low—and waste lead

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Old
12-07-2012, 05:04 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilexport View Post
It does seem like every proposal has died on Don Fehr's pen. The Fans, NHL, and Players will all suffer because this guy has to squeeze as much as he can from the NHL.

Don Fehr must want to decertify and blow things up. Don does not want to make this deal. It's quite clear.
Look at the deal the PA has offered.

Rethink what you said.

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12-07-2012, 05:17 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
This was a planned stunt to shake the players' faith in Fehr.
Thats a pretty big stretch lol. Fehr has a reputation. The owner-player meeting where making headway. To say he "had to be involved" is true but he didnt "NEED" to be in the meetings. They are allowed to consult with him before, during and after. It seems like to me, the owners got a few consessions on a few matters from the group and Fehr nixed it by wanting to jump in the middle of it.

To say Bettman or an owner wanted to get the deal nixed, you have to be wearing some pretty thick union glasses if you ask me.

Pretty simple if you ask me... Fehrs ego wouldnt let him take the sidelines on this to progress to a deal and the owners took their toys and went home because they felt that they had something that was working and with fehr there (perhaps from previous experiance) it was going to be a waste of time and didnt give it a chance.

What i'm more interested in, is what did the players actually say to jacobs that made him freak out when they offered some more money to help close the deal... They said the players acted like it was nothing but something must have been said to make the owners go nuts... lol

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12-07-2012, 05:21 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The owners would only continue if there was no Fehr?

Why do you think they didn't want him in the room? Speculate, if you would?
Full meeting get no results...
Full meetings with Mediators get no results..
More full meetings get no results...
Yet more full meetings get no results
even more full meeting get no results

Owner/player only meetings make headway

Union wants full meetings to resume...

You do know what the definition of insanity is dont you?

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12-07-2012, 05:22 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Bill Daly has already clarified the Hainsey comment. If NHLPA wanted Fehr back in the room, the owner-player meeting would end. The NHLPA insisted and the owners flew home.

It was a dealbreaker for the owner-player thingy, nothing else. But good effort by Hainsey trying to make it into a big thing.
Its not a "big thing"?

You are welcome to explain this to me, but from my point of view the owners position on this is completely irrationale and unexplainable from any other perspetive that they care more about going after Fehr then saving the season, and you do not think thats a big thing????

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12-07-2012, 05:28 AM
  #55
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http://www.copyblogger.com/much-obli...f-reciprocity/

Let the game of give and take, take, take continue.

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12-07-2012, 05:33 AM
  #56
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When one hires a top negotiator it is rather important that this top negotiator knows the true limit or where the line in the sand is. You can demand all you want be you cant cross the line in the sand that has the other side walk away for good. Well with what happened yesterday it sure is clear the Owners moved on the MONEY issue if you accept the rest of the contract. Players took the money and did NOT accept the other issues. Well there it is, the LINE was crossed, the players refused the NHL offer, the players did not get the most important information they needed. That this offer was that LINE IN THE SAND offer. Fehr misread the importance of this offer and he went to the media and that was his second huge mistake of the day. The owners are now livid, they don't want to talk anymore. They picked up their ball and went home. It's now a " Hell will freeze over before we come back". there must be a lot of players that saw all this unfold on tv and saw their man completely screwup. Wrong advise at the worst time is what the players got yesterday. The players could have accepted the NHL offer but decided to continue this and for what? is there any fan that does not know that hockey does NOT need another lockout for the next ten years in order to rebuild it's image. Is there any fan that does not know about the BIG FAT LOOPHOLE that allowed the players to get front loaded 15 year contracts in order to get around the CAP. These are the two things the players are at war over??????? WTF.

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Old
12-07-2012, 05:37 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaritimeHockeyNut View Post
Full meeting get no results...
Full meetings with Mediators get no results..
More full meetings get no results...
Yet more full meetings get no results
even more full meeting get no results

Owner/player only meetings make headway

Union wants full meetings to resume...

You do know what the definition of insanity is dont you?
That's just not in touch with reality. The result here is a new CBA. A new CBA will be signed when both parties are willing to do so. Bettman made an insane opening offer to the players this summer and Fehr has made tremendous progress negotiating with the league in relation to getting the owners to offer the union an offer the potentially could sign. Bettman's first offer had the PA go from 57% to 46%, instantly, elminated arbitration completely, moved UFA way back, had all players sharing rooms on the road, and a ton of other insane cut backs for the players. It was designed to piss them off, undoubtedly. Bettman's opening offer was not a starting point, it was a offer intended to bring down expectations.

Here is a report of NHL's initial offer from TSN:
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=400580
Quote:
RDS.ca posted details of the proposal, including a reduction of players' hockey-related revenues from 57 per cent to 46 per cent.

Renaud Lavoie, a journalist with RDS, also reports that players would need to wait 10 seasons before becoming unrestricted free agents and that contracts would be limited to a maximum of five years.
Its nothing but a lie when you say that Fehr hasn't made any progress off Bettman's insane bust the union opening offer.

Fehr has made tremendous progress.

-After looking at all numbers, the owners opening offer would have given the players 43% (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/17/sp...nue-split.html). Fehr has increased the players share with 20%.

That is a result.

-Bettman's opening offer would have caused an immidate reduction of player salaries with 24%, which would have resulted in the core members of a small negotiating committte being able to negotiate contracts in bad faith just weeks before that offer that they later would not have been bound to fullfill.

Fehr has forced the owners to at least honor parts of the contracts they signed this summer. I would call that a result.

-Bettman has been forced to back down from several insane limitations the owners and players rights to negotiate contracts, that would severly has limited a players freedom with little gain for the owners.

I would call that a result.

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Old
12-07-2012, 05:41 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RC51 View Post
When one hires a top negotiator it is rather important that this top negotiator knows the true limit or where the line in the sand is. You can demand all you want be you cant cross the line in the sand that has the other side walk away for good. Well with what happened yesterday it sure is clear the Owners moved on the MONEY issue if you accept the rest of the contract. Players took the money and did NOT accept the other issues. Well there it is, the LINE was crossed, the players refused the NHL offer, the players did not get the most important information they needed. That this offer was that LINE IN THE SAND offer. Fehr misread the importance of this offer and he went to the media and that was his second huge mistake of the day. The owners are now livid, they don't want to talk anymore. They picked up their ball and went home. It's now a " Hell will freeze over before we come back". there must be a lot of players that saw all this unfold on tv and saw their man completely screwup. Wrong advise at the worst time is what the players got yesterday. The players could have accepted the NHL offer but decided to continue this and for what? is there any fan that does not know that hockey does NOT need another lockout for the next ten years in order to rebuild it's image. Is there any fan that does not know about the BIG FAT LOOPHOLE that allowed the players to get front loaded 15 year contracts in order to get around the CAP. These are the two things the players are at war over??????? WTF.
You might have missed it, but its the owners who are locking out the players.

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Old
12-07-2012, 06:06 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
You might have missed it, but its the owners who are locking out the players.
When one hires Donald Fehr as ones union representative...

the same guy who INVENTED the "Strike during the playoffs" as a negotiating tactic.

... this arguement loses virtually ALL credibility.

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12-07-2012, 06:34 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Jesse Spector of The Sporting News:


If they'd agreed to matters in principle, why would having Fehr involved (which any normal person would assume would be needed to close) matter to the owners?

This is entire thing is incredibly bizarre.
Bringing your rep into a meeting is a deal-killer.

That's like something out of the 1930s.

What a clownish, buffoonish operation.

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Old
12-07-2012, 06:37 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Daly's response
So, in other words, Daly doesn't deny it.

Joke operation.

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Old
12-07-2012, 07:02 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The owners would only continue if there was no Fehr?

Why do you think they didn't want him in the room? Speculate, if you would?
The owners would obviously prefer to negotiate with the guys who could only flip burgers for a living if they weren't playing hockey.....

Not that I believe that of the players intelligence but many here have said that and then they cry about these guys not wanting to negotiate with billionaire businessmen.

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12-07-2012, 07:25 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by IslesNorway View Post
So in essence this is all down to one man: Fehr?

Somehow I wish the NHL's response right now would be to cancel the entire season so the players simply lose out on everything.
Me too. It will allow the inevitable new league more traction in its inception.

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12-07-2012, 07:28 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
When one hires Donald Fehr as ones union representative...

the same guy who INVENTED the "Strike during the playoffs" as a negotiating tactic.

... this arguement loses virtually ALL credibility.
Same argument works against bettman - why keep a guy who's only two claims to fame are running the league into the ground.

If I'm the PA, demand #1 is bettman must go.

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12-07-2012, 07:36 AM
  #65
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I think we're over-analyzing what transpired the past couple of days.

Where are we right now? The Owners are frustrated with the NHLPA because the NHLPA's counterproposal cherry-picked items from a take-it-or-leave-it offer. Hence, those items are back off the table until the NHLPA agrees to give the NHL what they asked in exchange for them. We're not back to square one. We've basically reset to Tuesday morning, but now the NHLPA is armed with the knowledge that the Owners are willing to walk away from certain demands.

What's my opinion on the whole thing? I think the NHL feels that they are making back-breaking concessions and the hawks of the NHLPA feel those items are a given. It's giving the Owners heartburn.

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Old
12-07-2012, 07:41 AM
  #66
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Sounds like the players weren't representing Fehr the way he wanted to be represented, so he did what he had to to stop the meetings.

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Old
12-07-2012, 07:43 AM
  #67
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Fehr will be dragged through mud and humiliated when this is done,bank it!

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Old
12-07-2012, 07:43 AM
  #68
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On one hand, Hainsey is correct, on the other - the union hired a guy who can't close a deal to save his life. I'm glad the PA thinks they're united, but they're only hurting themselves at this point. Every time Fehr gets involved the talks take a giant step back.
Where does this nonsense keep coming from? Fehr is in fact the only PA leader on the continent who has managed to close deals without having to go work stoppages.

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12-07-2012, 07:47 AM
  #69
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Where does this nonsense keep coming from? Fehr is in fact the only PA leader on the continent who has managed to close deals without having to go work stoppages.
Careful, now - can't insult the crystal-ball-crowd - who are absolutely positive Fehr would have called a strike mid-season...

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12-07-2012, 07:52 AM
  #70
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Where does this nonsense keep coming from? Fehr is in fact the only PA leader on the continent who has managed to close deals without having to go work stoppages.
Yep == as opposed to Bettman, now on his third lockout, third or fourth "best offer" in this negotiation, and creator from whole cloth of an utterly unnecessary, last-minute "hill to die on."

Bettman also is the proud holder of the world record for most games lost by a league.

His latest ploy of "let's see if the players will close a deal without Fehr," and then hissy fit, was the very height of amateur clown.

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12-07-2012, 08:10 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Its nothing but a lie when you say that Fehr hasn't made any progress off Bettman's insane bust the union opening offer.

Fehr has made tremendous progress.

-After looking at all numbers, the owners opening offer would have given the players 43% (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/17/sp...nue-split.html). Fehr has increased the players share with 20%.

That is a result.

-Bettman's opening offer would have caused an immidate reduction of player salaries with 24%, which would have resulted in the core members of a small negotiating committte being able to negotiate contracts in bad faith just weeks before that offer that they later would not have been bound to fullfill.

Fehr has forced the owners to at least honor parts of the contracts they signed this summer. I would call that a result.

-Bettman has been forced to back down from several insane limitations the owners and players rights to negotiate contracts, that would severly has limited a players freedom with little gain for the owners.

I would call that a result.
Perhaps you need to reexamine your own understanding of the process before suggesting that others are lying.

The NHL pulled their offers to the players. As such, Fehr has accomplished exactly zero, has no results, nil, nada, nothing.

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Old
12-07-2012, 08:18 AM
  #72
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I love the conspiracy theory that says the NHL made an attempt to get this done, and then saw an opportunity to try to split the union against Fehr. The wording in so many of their statements tends to suggest it.

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12-07-2012, 08:20 AM
  #73
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Same argument works against bettman - why keep a guy who's only two claims to fame are running the league into the ground.

If I'm the PA, demand #1 is bettman must go.
Yes, he totally ran the league into the ground, there are only more teams than ever, higher revenue than ever and players make far more money than they ever did before, total hack-job

Seriously, if that's running something into the ground than I'd love to work for such a company.

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12-07-2012, 08:24 AM
  #74
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Yes, he totally ran the league into the ground, there are only more teams than ever, higher revenue than ever and players make far more money than they ever did before, total hack-job

Seriously, if that's running something into the ground than I'd love to work for such a company.
Too bad that almost everyone of them are losing money. Or is that a lie and this indeed is all a sham?

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12-07-2012, 08:29 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Jesse Spector of The Sporting News:


If they'd agreed to matters in principle, why would having Fehr involved (which any normal person would assume would be needed to close) matter to the owners?

This is entire thing is incredibly bizarre.
I'd suspect that Fehr coached them, between negotiation sessions, not to be soft with the owners and stand their ground. And having Fehr in the room was liking having the master watching over the students to make the students conscious not to let down their guard. Seems a bit childlike, I admit, but we can't forget that most of these players have probably put their faith totally in Fehr and adhere totally to his guiding words.


Listening to Fehr's presser, the one error the owners made in the end was saying that they'd get back to the players. The owners should've said,... We'll wait to hear from you again!


Last edited by MoreOrr: 12-07-2012 at 08:58 AM.
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