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Lockout Thread 2: Deal reached in early morning hours

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Old
12-06-2012, 08:30 PM
  #76
Illinihockey
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Long contracts lead to cap circuvmention and hurt smaller market teams (Look at Philly offer sheet for easy example)

Not to mention that long/super long contract are only insured for 7 years

Its not unreasonable for NHL to want to stamp out the long term deals and go to a set limit (5 for UFA / 7 for re-signed player)

Not at all unreasonable



Yep it is stuff like this that makes the NHLPA sink even further into in public's eye
No one makes the owners sign those contracts. Regardless, there are ways to deal with cap circumvention that's not a year limit

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12-06-2012, 09:03 PM
  #77
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Ooops!

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@adater: From deep inside players side: "we were ready to play again. But don came in (wed.) and told us we could get more and to hold out"
Said it all along Fehr would prevent hockey from being played.

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12-06-2012, 09:06 PM
  #78
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I can't view the players in any sort of a positive light until Fehr is fired. Plain and simple.

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12-06-2012, 09:49 PM
  #79
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Congrats to Fehr who has now gotten the best deal the players will see that gave them almost all of what they where asking for.

Now the owners are pissed and taken their deal off the table and 90% of the PA is pissed that a deal wasn't signed because the top 10% didn't want it. If you think the PA is still together your nuts. Once the HRR, FA, and Arbitration was agreed to most of the PA wanted a deal. What do 90% of players care about a 8 year contract limit for when they'll never sign more then 2-3 year deal anyway.

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12-06-2012, 09:55 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
Congrats to Fehr who has now gotten the best deal the players will see that gave them almost all of what they where asking for.

Now the owners are pissed and taken their deal off the table and 90% of the PA is pissed that a deal wasn't signed because the top 10% didn't want it. If you think the PA is still together your nuts. Once the HRR, FA, and Arbitration was agreed to most of the PA wanted a deal. What do 90% of players care about a 8 year contract limit for when they'll never sign more then 2-3 year deal anyway.
Your percentages are speculative but lets hope you're right. If that was the case Fehr will be gone in 24 hrs.

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12-06-2012, 09:59 PM
  #81
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Your percentages are speculative but lets hope you're right. If that was the case Fehr will be gone in 24 hrs.
Yes they are but have heard from many people a majority of the players are fine with owners last deal because contractual right don't effect them.

However Fehr has only listened to the "big guns" and players are afraid to speak out against them. Look what happened to a respected vet like Hamrlik, he was destroyed for saying what most people, including other players felt. Now imagine some young "scrub" players coming out and saying the same thing, they would get run out the league.

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12-06-2012, 10:02 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
Bill Daly characterizes term limit on player contracts as "the hill we will die on."


How can anyone be on the owners side?
How can anyone be on the players side when it's seeming now like the players themselves aren't on their leaders side?

I don't get how just a year limit would make someone want to side with the players here.



Fehr is acting ONLY for the '4 percenters' who are getting the 5+ year deals and is recking the other 96%s chances to make money this season.

Until the players turn on Fehr, this thing will just keep going...

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12-06-2012, 10:06 PM
  #83
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For so long throughout this thing I've been in the middle, refusing to take a side over the other. But after what Fehr has done today, I hope the PA gets CRUSHED!!

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12-06-2012, 10:33 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by IU Hawks fan View Post
How can anyone be on the players side when it's seeming now like the players themselves aren't on their leaders side?

I don't get how just a year limit would make someone want to side with the players here.



Fehr is acting ONLY for the '4 percenters' who are getting the 5+ year deals and is recking the other 96%s chances to make money this season.

Until the players turn on Fehr, this thing will just keep going...
This is exactly it!

Look who was at these meetings, Toews, Crosby, Richards, Miller, guys who are the top 5% of the NHL. Why no Clutterbucks, Pahlsons, etc.

90% of the NHL will never be offered a 5+ year contract so why do they care about contractual rights.


The NHL cares because 60-70% of the teams can't sign players to those 10 year front loaded deals that where required to get the top FA. Sure its likely a top FA won't sign for Tampa, Columbus, NYI, etc. but if contacts are limited atleast they have a fair chance.

That is why it's the hill the NHL was willing to die on, it was the only way to even out the have's vs the have nots. Add the 5% variance year to year to stop the front loaded cap circumventing deals. It was the 1 thing the NHL refused to give on, they gave on HRR, Make Whole, FA, Arbitration, but still Fehr and his top 5% lackies refuse a deal and holdout. Now the 90% who aren't getting 100 million contacts, can't get a job in Europe and the small people in the NHL, staffers, arena workers etc won't work or make money so that Crosby and friends can get their 40 year 300 million guaranteed contract.

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12-06-2012, 10:47 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
This is exactly it!

Look who was at these meetings, Toews, Crosby, Richards, Miller, guys who are the top 5% of the NHL. Why no Clutterbucks, Pahlsons, etc.

90% of the NHL will never be offered a 5+ year contract so why do they care about contractual rights.
Exactly. The only oddball in the group is Campoli, but I think that's because he knows he's probably not getting another contract and is doing it to help lobby himself for a PA job when this is all done.

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12-06-2012, 11:07 PM
  #86
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Just wake me when this is all over...

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Old
12-06-2012, 11:09 PM
  #87
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Just wake me when this is all over...
You don't mind sleeping until 2014?

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Old
12-06-2012, 11:56 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by IU Hawks fan View Post
Exactly. The only oddball in the group is Campoli, but I think that's because he knows he's probably not getting another contract and is doing it to help lobby himself for a PA job when this is all done.
Here is the complete list of players in attendance.

Craig Adams, David Backes, Michael Cammalleri, B.J. Crombeen, Mathieu Darche, Shane Doan, Ron Hainsey, Shawn Horcoff, Jamal Mayers, Manny Malhotra, Andy McDonald, Ryan Miller, George Parros, Brad Richards, Martin St. Louis, Kevin Westgarth, Crosby and Toews.

IMO Its a very diverse group. I can count 5 stars out of 18 players in that group namely Crosby, Toews, Miller, Richards and St Louis.

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12-07-2012, 12:09 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by IU Hawks fan View Post
How can anyone be on the players side when it's seeming now like the players themselves aren't on their leaders side?

I don't get how just a year limit would make someone want to side with the players here.



Fehr is acting ONLY for the '4 percenters' who are getting the 5+ year deals and is recking the other 96%s chances to make money this season.

Until the players turn on Fehr, this thing will just keep going...
The owners cancelled the talks and said year limits would "be the hill they die on"....it's the owners that give these freaking deals. If you don't want them, don't give them. It's a small concession and the owners are going to lose a season over it

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12-07-2012, 12:09 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by RedBaronIndian View Post
Here is the complete list of players in attendance.

Craig Adams, David Backes, Michael Cammalleri, B.J. Crombeen, Mathieu Darche, Shane Doan, Ron Hainsey, Shawn Horcoff, Jamal Mayers, Manny Malhotra, Andy McDonald, Ryan Miller, George Parros, Brad Richards, Martin St. Louis, Kevin Westgarth, Crosby and Toews.

IMO Its a very diverse group. I can count 5 stars out of 18 players in that group namely Crosby, Toews, Miller, Richards and St Louis.
That doesn't fit his narrative of the talks, don't bring that up

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12-07-2012, 12:29 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by RedBaronIndian View Post
Here is the complete list of players in attendance.

Craig Adams, David Backes, Michael Cammalleri, B.J. Crombeen, Mathieu Darche, Shane Doan, Ron Hainsey, Shawn Horcoff, Jamal Mayers, Manny Malhotra, Andy McDonald, Ryan Miller, George Parros, Brad Richards, Martin St. Louis, Kevin Westgarth, Crosby and Toews.

IMO Its a very diverse group. I can count 5 stars out of 18 players in that group namely Crosby, Toews, Miller, Richards and St Louis.
Diverse is right. Quite a few agents represented too through those clients.

I think the agents are pushing on a few issues. Some agents with dozens of clients are not represented by the group. Some of this mess stinks of the agents again.

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12-07-2012, 12:31 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
Congrats to Fehr who has now gotten the best deal the players will see that gave them almost all of what they where asking for.

Now the owners are pissed and taken their deal off the table and 90% of the PA is pissed that a deal wasn't signed because the top 10% didn't want it. If you think the PA is still together your nuts. Once the HRR, FA, and Arbitration was agreed to most of the PA wanted a deal. What do 90% of players care about a 8 year contract limit for when they'll never sign more then 2-3 year deal anyway.
I agree the deal the NHL tabled was close to the best the PA was going to get or expected going into the negotiations. But is it not odd that the NHL is wiling to die in the hill of max contract terms when there are many (redundant) clauses that make cap avoidance impossible? And does the fact that the NHL wants to lock down the deal for 10 years -when they have been the ones to lockout the players at the end of deals - tell you they think they have a sweet deal?

At this point it's about GARY.They hate him and they want to break him. The sight of him all full-chested in anger - the punk weasel lawyer punk that never took a cross-check to the face that he so deserves - with his fake outrage while he collects his checks - well then I'm fine that Fehr and a lost season are the cost to banish him. The PA and Fehr have better, more visionary plans for the NHL.

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12-07-2012, 12:32 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
The owners cancelled the talks and said year limits would "be the hill they die on"....it's the owners that give these freaking deals. If you don't want them, don't give them. It's a small concession and the owners are going to lose a season over it
The small market owners have too much of a say here. Don't want, don't give them is not a valid stance here. Somebody is going to give them when other team's can't afford to. I don't really agree with this. I think the cap on how contracts fluctuate is good enough. There is a hard cap. Some of these teams are not going to make it either way. Why bend over for them?

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12-07-2012, 12:46 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
The owners cancelled the talks and said year limits would "be the hill they die on"....it's the owners that give these freaking deals. If you don't want them, don't give them. It's a small concession and the owners are going to lose a season over it
It is not a small concession, it's huge for the owners.

Look what Vanderbeek's bid could do to the league and the franchise, and one can't really blame him for taking the gamble at the time given what we know now.

Those contracts have to go. I think the players are just using it as leverage.

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12-07-2012, 12:55 AM
  #95
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It is not a small concession, it's huge for the owners.

Look what Vanderbeek's bid could do to the league and the franchise, and one can't really blame him for taking the gamble at the time given what we know now.

Those contracts have to go. I think the players are just using it as leverage.
Very true.

It's small for the bug market teams. Again though if your Tampa, the only way to get a great player like Stamkos is be lucky enough to draft him. You know you'll never sign a Stamkos in FA because you don't have the money to sign a 13 year front loaded last 3 years pay him .37 to minimize cap hit deal. So if the contract length and variance year to year are a fair set limit now you could possible sign a big name FA because you can offer the same contract as other teams.

If you really look at the NHL offers they had 2 goals for this entire lockout, 50-50 HRR split and contractual rights, it's why they gave in on FA and Arbitration, because those weren't the 2 main points they wanted. The players go FA, Arbitration and a almost $100 million dollar increase in the Make Whole and still didn't agree to contractual rights that only effect 10% of their constituents? The real question isn't why was it the hill the NHL was willing to die on but why was it the hill the PA was willing to die on. 50% HRR, almost $200 Make Whole, no changes to FA and Arbitration and contractual rights seems like a perfectly fair deal to me.

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12-07-2012, 12:59 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarmerSavardSecord View Post
I agree the deal the NHL tabled was close to the best the PA was going to get or expected going into the negotiations. But is it not odd that the NHL is wiling to die in the hill of max contract terms when there are many (redundant) clauses that make cap avoidance impossible? And does the fact that the NHL wants to lock down the deal for 10 years -when they have been the ones to lockout the players at the end of deals - tell you they think they have a sweet deal?

At this point it's about GARY.They hate him and they want to break him. The sight of him all full-chested in anger - the punk weasel lawyer punk that never took a cross-check to the face that he so deserves - with his fake outrage while he collects his checks - well then I'm fine that Fehr and a lost season are the cost to banish him. The PA and Fehr have better, more visionary plans for the NHL.
Actually Gary isn't getting paid during the lock-out, and if you think Fehr or any of these guys care about the future of the game your kidding yourself, they care about their checks and that's it, and Fehr cares about Fehr and nothing and no-one else.

The fact that Gary was angry today while Fehr stood up there and lied to everyone about how close there where with no emotion tells me everything. Gary cares about hockey and is mad it's not happening, Fehr doesn't give a rats and is glad he stopped this deal from happening without him effectively proving he is useless.

Why shouldn't they ask for a long CBA? If they think it's fair for both sides. Other sports have decade plus CBAs the current NFL CBA lasts 10 years, the NBA is 10 years, both had lockouts in the last year. There would be an opt out after not the full 10 and the players could always strike if they felt completely wronged.

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12-07-2012, 01:06 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarmerSavardSecord View Post
I agree the deal the NHL tabled was close to the best the PA was going to get or expected going into the negotiations. But is it not odd that the NHL is wiling to die in the hill of max contract terms when there are many (redundant) clauses that make cap avoidance impossible? And does the fact that the NHL wants to lock down the deal for 10 years -when they have been the ones to lockout the players at the end of deals - tell you they think they have a sweet deal?

At this point it's about GARY.They hate him and they want to break him. The sight of him all full-chested in anger - the punk weasel lawyer punk that never took a cross-check to the face that he so deserves - with his fake outrage while he collects his checks - well then I'm fine that Fehr and a lost season are the cost to banish him. The PA and Fehr have better, more visionary plans for the NHL.

Lost in all this outrage is that NHL has successfully moved the goal post from 50-50 to 5 year limit & 5% variance. They have also most likely succeeded in introducing fissures in the PA since this will not affect more than 80% of the membership. Before today, almost everybody was of the opinion that contract term limits was just another bargaining chip NHL would be willing to give up to get to 50-50 and prevent circumventing contracts. Purely from a negotiation POV, kudos to Bettman and the NHL.

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12-07-2012, 01:34 AM
  #98
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This is an excellent piece about the recent meetings and the lockout as a whole.

Basically it's as others have said and stated before, the owners and players want a deal, Bettman and Fehr want to continue their anatomy measuring contest. It's why so much progress was made without them and why so much was killed with them. Honestly believe that is both somehow fell of the face of the earth a deal would be reached in hours but neither will let the other "win" even if the smart move is they both "win" but egos are too great at the moment.

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12-07-2012, 05:21 AM
  #99
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The owners cancelled the talks and said year limits would "be the hill they die on"....it's the owners that give these freaking deals. If you don't want them, don't give them. It's a small concession and the owners are going to lose a season over it
so you want owners to collude to keep contract size down? that's the only way to avoid huge contacts other than the nhl prohibiting them. and I'm sure the pa would be totally cool with that, right ? its basic game theory,

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12-07-2012, 07:16 AM
  #100
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I think it's safe to say that this season is pretty much done.

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