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12-07-2012, 08:42 AM
  #951
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What little credibility Bettman has left he should just cancel the season.

How many times do we need to see/hear him take the podium claiming this was the Owners "Best Offer" in a take it or leave it ultimatum, only to then watch him cry like a little child when he doesn't get his way.

Every Month there is a new this is our "Best Offer", only to see the following offer improve and they demand less take backs from the PA in the next one.

He is like the little boy who cried wolf one toooooo many times already, for anyone to believe him.

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12-07-2012, 08:44 AM
  #952
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The problem is that if the player has already been making money for 25 years, he should be smart enough to save. I don't understand why people can say that they have to live a certain way because they have been for such a long time. You need to budget according to the money you have and how long you want to have money. Simple as that. If I'm a hockey player, I'm spending some money but you can bet your ass I'm saving a ton of money. It's no excuse. They are making millions. Save some.
Why are the billionaires on the teams making huge profits not giving all that profit to the have-not teams?

The billionaires already have billions?

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12-07-2012, 08:47 AM
  #953
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
What little credibility Bettman has left he should just cancel the season.

How many times do we need to see/hear him take the podium claiming this was the Owners "Best Offer" in a take it or leave it ultimatum, only to then watch him cry like a little child when he doesn't get his way.

Every Month there is a new this is our "Best Offer", only to see the following offer improve and they demand less take backs from the PA in the next one.

He is like the little boy who cried wolf one toooooo many times already, for anyone to believe him.
I believe when you look at it they did give there best offer in Oct. It was the players best chance at making there whole values. It was these four owners who decided to throw a little more money at it with the catch that it becomes a ten year deal. So in fact, it was more money now for a longer deal. You can argue that is a better deal or you can say it was give more to get more.

I will be honest. The more this drags on the more fans will side with the owners. What happened last night is just the start of what fans will see who Fehr really is. Even cattle know when to come in when there is a storm, players are sitting there in the middle of it too oblivious to see what is happening around them. The game will never be the same.

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12-07-2012, 08:48 AM
  #954
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Why are the billionaires on the teams making huge profits not giving all that profit to the have-not teams?

The billionaires already have billions?
Would you? Hey. How about give me your salary this year :-)

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12-07-2012, 08:51 AM
  #955
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
Does anyone really care anymore other than reality tv?

Listening to Hockey Central the wonderfully insightful and brimming with knowledge Kypreos came out and said " what the hell is 575k going to do for a player anymore ". That's right 575 thousand dollars. After professional expenses that is pretty much what your Ontario surgeon grosses. The individual that saves lives, prolongs them and has sat in post secondary education for a decade or more. I lost all respect for the players at that moment. He countered with, 'how many people put there life on the line everyday and can end up in a wheel chair'. Well Nick. How about every police officer, firefighter, construction worker, high altitude electrician, military officer...shall I go on? Honestly.. What a block head!

Listening to their ridiculous rants on tv, twitter and radio makes my stomach curl. Watching them show up to meetings with their suits on and baseball caps and toques is laughable. You guys go ahead and waste your time with these bafoons, the greater society doesn't need hockey to survive.

I will get a kick come Jan and the league cancels the season. Then these dumb idiots can go home and ask themselves how they can throw away multi millions of dollars in a year when the average person has to struggle to make a living. These are not cattle, even cattle know when to come in when there is a storm. These guys are complete block heads.
This^^^ Kypreos is being disrespectful to alot of people making bone headed comments like this. I wonder if the brass at Sportsnet are taking notes because Kypreos has become a complete embarrassment throughout the lockout. For a former journeyman 4th line goon speedbag who had his career ended by a light heavyweight AHL fighter he sure has a lot of ignorant things to say on the air about the plight of the NHLPA.

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12-07-2012, 09:20 AM
  #956
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
What little credibility Bettman has left he should just cancel the season.

How many times do we need to see/hear him take the podium claiming this was the Owners "Best Offer" in a take it or leave it ultimatum, only to then watch him cry like a little child when he doesn't get his way.

Every Month there is a new this is our "Best Offer", only to see the following offer improve and they demand less take backs from the PA in the next one.

He is like the little boy who cried wolf one toooooo many times already, for anyone to believe him.
Considering the PA agreed on the money they gave them, it should really not be that hard to resolve, you just need to negotiate the rest. Instead he takes back the offer (which we all know he really hasn't done, its just to try and get the PA to come whimpering back) and stops talks.

I guess Bettman has no sense of urgency.

Btw Lebrunns rant about the situation was my favourite input from any of the players. This deal should not be taking this long, they have the money, now figure it out.

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12-07-2012, 09:23 AM
  #957
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I believe when you look at it they did give there best offer in Oct. It was the players best chance at making there whole values. It was these four owners who decided to throw a little more money at it with the catch that it becomes a ten year deal. So in fact, it was more money now for a longer deal. You can argue that is a better deal or you can say it was give more to get more.

I will be honest. The more this drags on the more fans will side with the owners. What happened last night is just the start of what fans will see who Fehr really is. Even cattle know when to come in when there is a storm, players are sitting there in the middle of it too oblivious to see what is happening around them. The game will never be the same.
In October Fehr claimed the sides were far apart and rejected Bettman's best offer take it or leave it deal, as make whole was coming out of the PA portion.

Then in November when negotiating began again it was now suddenly coming out of the NHL HRR% cut, but wait not all existing contracts (of $451 mil outstanding) just $211 as their "best offer & final" take it or leave it offer.

In December we just witnessed make whole go to $300 mil and more and more player rights demands relinquished that they had previously demanded in prior take it or leave it proposals. Now finally Fehr and the PA agreed that on the money portion the two sides are in agreement with this becoming a 50/50 HRR% partnership once past contracts are honoured ($300 mil of $450 mil owing).

So now Bettman claims all previously offered things are once again off the table, yet we have seen time after time that "best and final" definition mean little when Bettman tosses out those words as his PR rhetoric, while still claiming he wants to play hockey this year. Well everyone is smart enough to realize if you start moving further apart rather than together on issues that divide the parties that strategy lacks common sense in hopes of completing a successful negotiation. He acts like a little kid and every time he doesn't get his way, he whines and then says he's taking his ball and going home and doesn't want to play/negotiate any more.

If he claims that his last offer was truly his best final offer, and it was rejected on his Yes or No demands, instead of negotiating on other matters, then he should cancel the season because we know that the answer was NO!! ..

So we have to wait until his next "best & final offer" to appear presents itself, when he is done pouting that he didn't get his way this time. The entire hockey world particularly Fehr and PA can recognize that each time Bettman comes crawling back the CBA improves for the PA, in terms of LESS claw-back demands by the Owners which all began with outrages demands to start, and slowly but surely (but painfully) change with each Final Offer by the NHL.


Last edited by Mess: 12-07-2012 at 09:31 AM.
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12-07-2012, 09:23 AM
  #958
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I agree. I can't see term being what cancels a season, and everyone involved knows that. Especially when an agreeable solution is so close. 5 years vs 8? That's not a hill worth dying on. For either side.

It'll be done soon.



You believe that? How about what Ron Hainsy said? That they wanted to get the deal signed without professional help? Do you really think the owners thought they could get a handful of players to finalize a CBA for 700 men? It was a ploy to tease the players and fans. Let us all think this was it. Then pull the plug and blame Fehr. When (if) he's gone, they can go back to manipulating the players.



I actually think this could hurt smaller markets in the long run. Players today don't ask for league max, but they will with a 5 year max. 11-12M per year over 5 years. Get it while you can, cause you won't have a long term deal. I don't think Minny could afford a deal that paid 2 players 40% of the cap for 5 years.

In the end the 5 year term will mean tighter spending on depth players and massive disparity between the likes of the Kessels and the Frattins. One will get league max, the other will get routinely low balled, as a lot of teams will only carry one or 2 stars at that cost.



Bettman always shakes. His nickname should be Twitch. The owners are doing everything they can to try and publicly sway the opinion of the players and fans on Fehr. They are a 2-3 year discrepancy away from finalizing a deal and Fehr is the villian?
You are 100% correct.....The owners are trying to make Fehr the escape goat as we have seen that act before except this time they have meet their match.

The tables turn when they suggested that they sign the deal without any help from their Lawyer Fehr.....as soon as they mentioned that they wanted to bring him back into the room it all changed. Bettman did not even attend the talks in the morning. No one was reporting that they were given a take it or leave it offer before the PC's.

Jeff Vinik statement says it all when he stated that the Unions leadership was the reason why their offer was turn down. Blaming Fehr as was the plan.

Just why do you think that the NHL offered to meet with the players without Fehr.....so that they can make Fehr look bad and get rid of him in the process....same act different Union Leader this time.

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12-07-2012, 09:24 AM
  #959
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
Does anyone really care anymore other than reality tv?

Listening to Hockey Central the wonderfully insightful and brimming with knowledge Kypreos came out and said " what the hell is 575k going to do for a player anymore ". That's right 575 thousand dollars. After professional expenses that is pretty much what your Ontario surgeon grosses. The individual that saves lives, prolongs them and has sat in post secondary education for a decade or more. I lost all respect for the players at that moment. He countered with, 'how many people put there life on the line everyday and can end up in a wheel chair'. Well Nick. How about every police officer, firefighter, construction worker, high altitude electrician, military officer...shall I go on? Honestly.. What a block head!

Listening to their ridiculous rants on tv, twitter and radio makes my stomach curl. Watching them show up to meetings with their suits on and baseball caps and toques is laughable. You guys go ahead and waste your time with these bafoons, the greater society doesn't need hockey to survive.

I will get a kick come Jan and the league cancels the season. Then these dumb idiots can go home and ask themselves how they can throw away multi millions of dollars in a year when the average person has to struggle to make a living. These are not cattle, even cattle know when to come in when there is a storm. These guys are complete block heads.
Dude, i lost all respect for Kyper during that rant! I posted my tirrade (very similar to yours) last night haha.

How he kept blabbing that "$575k is not enough in a city like New York, LA, etc." What ****in planet does this guy live on? With average income in the states around 40k/year, these pylons are arguing that $575k is just NOT enough for a 4th liner who may only play 5-6 years in the NHL???

In the new agreement they may have to give up $50k on average and be house poor with $525k??? Not to mention these guys basically have no living expenses for 8 months a year!

Just a moronic outlook on life and reality!

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12-07-2012, 09:38 AM
  #960
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In October Fehr claimed the sides were far apart and rejected Bettman's best offer take it or leave it deal, as make whole was coming out of the PA portion.

Then in November when negotiating began again it was now suddenly coming out of the NHL HRR% cut, but wait not all existing contracts (of $451 mil outstanding) just $211 as their "best offer & final" take it or leave it offer.

In December we just witnessed make whole go to $300 mil and more and more player rights demands relinquished that they had previously demanded in prior take it or leave it proposals. Now finally Fehr and the PA agreed that on the money portion the two sides are in agreement with this becoming a 50/50 HRR% partnership once past contracts are honoured ($300 mil of $450 mil owing).

So now Bettman claims all previously offered things are once again off the table, yet we have seen time after time that "best and final" definition mean little when Bettman tosses out those words as his PR rhetoric, while still claiming he wants to play hockey this year. Well everyone is smart enough to realize if you start moving further apart rather than together on issues that divide the parties that strategy lacks common sense in hopes of completing a successful negotiation. He acts like a little kid and every time he doesn't get his way, he whines and then says he's taking his ball and going home and doesn't want to play/negotiate any more.

If he claims that his last offer was truly his best final offer, and it was rejected on his Yes or No demands, instead of negotiating on other matters, then he should cancel the season because we know that the answer was NO!! ..

So we have to wait until his next "best & final offer" to appear presents itself, when he is done pouting that he didn't get his way this time. The entire hockey world particularly Fehr and PA can recognize that each time Bettman comes crawling back the CBA improves for the PA, in terms of LESS claw-back demands by the Owners which all began with outrages demands to start, and slowly but surely (but painfully) change with each Final Offer by the NHL.
And Bettman said last night that they did what they never wanted to do and that was continuing bargaining and negotiating on their own offer to get the process going. Alluded to many owners wanted the make whole provision taken off the table. It was Fehr's game plan to do nothing and continue to stall to try and get more. One way or the other the majority of fans don't care anymore. At one time hockey players were viewed as down to earth type of professional athletes. Now they come across as blood sucking, money hungry whining children. Unfortunately their IQ's haven't increased with their salaries.

It won't be long now before the season is done, even if they do go back it is for half a year. So your min salary fourth line plug gave up 237.5 of his 575k salary and guys making 8mil gave up 4mill. Looks like good bargaining to me. Great negotiating! Wonderful plan!

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12-07-2012, 09:43 AM
  #961
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You are 100% correct.....The owners are trying to make Fehr the escape goat as we have seen that act before except this time they have meet their match.

The tables turn when they suggested that they sign the deal without any help from their Lawyer Fehr.....as soon as they mentioned that they wanted to bring him back into the room it all changed. Bettman did not even attend the talks in the morning. No one was reporting that they were given a take it or leave it offer before the PC's.

Jeff Vinik statement says it all when he stated that the Unions leadership was the reason why their offer was turn down. Blaming Fehr as was the plan.

Just why do you think that the NHL offered to meet with the players without Fehr.....so that they can make Fehr look bad and get rid of him in the process....same act different Union Leader this time.
They requested the meeting because Fehr has been stalling the process. They wanted a owners-players meeting. No counsel to try and hammer out a deal. You can sit here and justify the position all you want. Look at the players faces last night when Fehr was making his announcement. They all looked stunned. Why? Maybe deep down inside they all knew it was a game and unfortunately the head honcho couldn't sell the games biggest players. Not one stood up straight and looked in the camera. Crosby looked like he was still suffering from post concussion syndrome and Richards looked like the speech was being given in Chinese. Give your head a shake guy. Fehr is the biggest mistake that has ever happened to hockey.

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12-07-2012, 09:54 AM
  #962
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so the only problem now is a 10yr vs 8yr deal ?
ok then make it 9 yrs

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12-07-2012, 10:05 AM
  #963
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In regards to Fehr: you understand why the players got him in the first place right? It's well known and sort of tied to the video I posted. I just want to know, what did you think of Bettman's first offer to the players? Do you honestly think that any player would have considered that fair? Furthermore, why does bettman have to set such extremes to his methods, including recurring lockouts?
Of course neither sides' initial offers were considered fair by either side. And you know what? Both sides will be grumbling about the CBA whenever they do reach an agreement. That's just how negotiations work.

Recurring lockouts is nothing new in sports. The system needs to be tweaked until they get it right. Unfortunately, you cannot trust GMs to abide by the spirit of the rules. If it wasn't for idiots like Holmgren, Sather, Chuck Fletcher (Wilds' GM), and co, we wouldn't even be in this mess. Now that these fools started handing out retarded contracts, the players actually feel entitled to them.

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12-07-2012, 10:11 AM
  #964
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Just how can Fehr answer those questions?.....as it was not his decision to make what the NHL takes off the table. That was the message that Gary later confirmed....it was all of the table.
Simply put, the guy should do his research. It is his job to inform the players about the implications of each move that happens behind closed doors. If he doesn't know something, he should be asking for clarification. This whole playing dumb act came off as very insincere, as did his "Oh, we're so close to a deal" bit.

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12-07-2012, 10:12 AM
  #965
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so the only problem now is a 10yr vs 8yr deal ?
ok then make it 9 yrs
Wasn't the deal owners give 100mill more, in return they want a ten year deal? Who wants to go through this crap every 5 or 6 years. Let them rot, because they will. Owners will still make money, maybe not as much and not as much fun but they will make money.

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12-07-2012, 10:15 AM
  #966
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so the only problem now is a 10yr vs 8yr deal ?
ok then make it 9 yrs
It has an out clause at 6 years, and the 8 year vs 5 year length of contract. Issues that are apparently non negotiable. How about if the players go to 6 years on contract they keep the CBA at 9 years with 7 as an out clause. Pretty much half.

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12-07-2012, 10:17 AM
  #967
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It has an out clause at 6 years, and the 8 year vs 5 year length of contract. Issues that are apparently non negotiable. How about if the players go to 6 years on contract they keep the CBA at 9 years with 7 as an out clause. Pretty much half.
You guys don't seem to comprehend it was a take it or leave it proposal. It wasn't open for negotiation. They wanted a yes or no. PA came back with a counter proposal and told the media they are close and no reason now that a agreement can't be imminent. Not sure where the english gets lost but apparently it has.

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12-07-2012, 10:20 AM
  #968
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It has an out clause at 6 years, and the 8 year vs 5 year length of contract. Issues that are apparently non negotiable. How about if the players go to 6 years on contract they keep the CBA at 9 years with 7 as an out clause. Pretty much half.
and the league gives 75 million (as opposed to 100 million

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12-07-2012, 10:21 AM
  #969
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Would you? Hey. How about give me your salary this year :-)
Owning a sports franchise isn't about making money off it. That's just a perk.

To people who have billions of dollars in net worth, a few million isn't worth much.

At my work, we have a group of guys that pitch $50 into a pool for NFL Fantasy. I make about $50,000 a year, so $50 is about 0.1% of my annual income.

A person with even just a $1,000,000,000 annual income would be pitching in only 1% of their annual income to put $1,000,000 into a Fantasy football pot. And my fantasy football league isn't a gigantic tax write-off for me.

You look at what each team is losing per year, the most is what, $11-million? That's a relative drop in the hat for billionaires. They're not "forking over their entire salary" as you suggested.

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12-07-2012, 10:26 AM
  #970
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1. They requested the meeting because Fehr has been stalling the process. They wanted a owners-players meeting. No counsel to try and hammer out a deal. You can sit here and justify the position all you want.

2. Look at the players faces last night when Fehr was making his announcement. They all looked stunned. Why? Maybe deep down inside they all knew it was a game and unfortunately the head honcho couldn't sell the games biggest players. Not one stood up straight and looked in the camera. Crosby looked like he was still suffering from post concussion syndrome and Richards looked like the speech was being given in Chinese.

3. Give your head a shake guy. Fehr is the biggest mistake that has ever happened to hockey.

1. No proof at all Fehr has been stalling. No explanation at all why this would be advantageous to his bargaining position. Not in anyones interest to do so especially not the players who he works for.

2. Your support for this point is the demeanour of Crosby and Richards in the background. Maybe they just got out of hours long negotiations over a 3 day period which extended past midnight the night before? But I don't need to defend their demeanour because it is irrelevant to your assertion. Couldn't sell the games biggest players. What? Was there an auction after the press conference that I missed?

3. Then after making a completely illogical argument you allude to someone else being confused. Finally, you say Fehr is a mistake to hockey. How can one person be a mistake to hockey? Did hockey make a mistake?

The Credibility of your post is NIL.

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12-07-2012, 10:27 AM
  #971
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Wasn't the deal owners give 100mill more, in return they want a ten year deal? Who wants to go through this crap every 5 or 6 years. Let them rot, because they will. Owners will still make money, maybe not as much and not as much fun but they will make money.
Actually, the owners offered to take back less.

NHLPA is not asking for more money, they are negotiating to give back less of what the teams offered in the signed contracts.

It isn't about getting more it is about losing less.

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12-07-2012, 10:28 AM
  #972
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You guys don't seem to comprehend it was a take it or leave it proposal. It wasn't open for negotiation. They wanted a yes or no. PA came back with a counter proposal and told the media they are close and no reason now that a agreement can't be imminent. Not sure where the english gets lost but apparently it has.
Yea I get that, I can understand english just fine. Bettman would have known that they would counter and not just sign the deal. That's how negotiations work. You don't just present a deal with yes or no offer and go from there. You put it together piece by piece.

Its not like one side made all the movement. The PA moved to accept the money the NHL offered, they moved to accept a term length on deals. They moved in many areas. They should be negotiating on this deal instead they're being childish and having 30 minutes or 5 minute rants to get the fans to favour one side or try and get some players to give up on Fehr. Its politics now. Any sensible person can clearly see a deal can clearly be made from this.

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12-07-2012, 10:29 AM
  #973
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Owning a sports franchise isn't about making money off it. That's just a perk.

To people who have billions of dollars in net worth, a few million isn't worth much.

At my work, we have a group of guys that pitch $50 into a pool for NFL Fantasy. I make about $50,000 a year, so $50 is about 0.1% of my annual income.

A person with even just a $1,000,000,000 annual income would be pitching in only 1% of their annual income to put $1,000,000 into a Fantasy football pot. And my fantasy football league isn't a gigantic tax write-off for me.

You look at what each team is losing per year, the most is what, $11-million? That's a relative drop in the hat for billionaires. They're not "forking over their entire salary" as you suggested.
You seem to have confused net worth with net annual income. The two are entirely different and one that people can't seem to fathom. They look and say what is 100 million to you guys. Honestly, really? Like Kypreos that comes on the radio and says what the hell can a player do with 575k. You guys like to throw around other peoples money like it is your own. Throwing money in a pool is not throwing money in a pension. You understand that you are on the hook for that money whether you make it or not? Not 50 bucks anymore is it? I really get a kick out of people and how out of whack their whole system of values and ethics has changed. I have heard it all this year. It's ok that Lance cheated and duped the world because he gave millions to cancer research. It's ok baseball players cheated and broke records because everyone else was doing it..........just money to billionaires, hey, throw in another 100mill, it's only money........It's the fans money. It's the people that go and watch the games and buy the jerseys and ridiculous costs of beer and food. Those costs will continue to skyrocket. So when you say, ah, throw in a few bucks more......hey guy...reach in your pocket because it is coming from you and every other fans.

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12-07-2012, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Did the owners give in to all the players key elements.....no maximum term on contracts, and honour existing contracts fully?

It cuts both ways.
Considering that those are exactly the reasons we're in this lockout, no, they did not give in on those elements, and they never will. That is what's caused this whole mess.

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12-07-2012, 10:30 AM
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Yea I get that, I can understand english just fine. Bettman would have known that they would counter and not just sign the deal. That's how negotiations work. You don't just present a deal with yes or no offer and go from there. You put it together piece by piece.

Its not like one side made all the movement. The PA moved to accept the money the NHL offered, they moved to accept a term length on deals. They moved in many areas. They should be negotiating on this deal instead they're being childish and having 30 minutes or 5 minute rants to get the fans to favour one side or try and get some players to give up on Fehr. Its politics now. Any sensible person can clearly see a deal can clearly be made from this.
That's the way the offer was presented. That is why the owners went home. They asked for a yes or no, not a counter offer. They went public telling the world they just offered a proposal that should see this thing come to an end. NHL countered with their rant because PA went public.

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