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With Fehr end-around, owners hit new low—and waste lead

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Old
12-07-2012, 08:20 AM
  #76
CC321
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The mistake Bettman made was being too nice to the players. The extras that were offered were an incentive to get the season started on time. Bettman keeps inching towards the players and it gives the PA hope that if they hold out another month they will get a few more million. Once the first games were cancelled, the league's offers should have started shrinking.

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12-07-2012, 08:26 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by CC321 View Post
The mistake Bettman made was being too nice to the players. The extras that were offered were an incentive to get the season started on time. Bettman keeps inching towards the players and it gives the PA hope that if they hold out another month they will get a few more million. Once the first games were cancelled, the league's offers should have started shrinking.
I definitely think that, as Bettman said those recent offers are now off the table, most of those offers should indeed now stay off the table. Unless the PA comes back before this weekend is over and says that they accept, then they've missed the boat, the ship has sailed, the best deal they could've gotten is gone.

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12-07-2012, 08:36 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Habaneros View Post
do we believe Bettman sayin Kings not for sale?..lol



May 30, 2012
http://msn.foxsports.com/nhl/story/G...inances-053012





Sept 2012
http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...kings-for-sale

So they were not for sale in May but were for sale in September? He was asked in May right?

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12-07-2012, 08:54 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The owners would only continue if there was no Fehr?

Why do you think they didn't want him in the room? Speculate, if you would?
I see it a different way. If the players wanted to stop the player/owner discussion, then why would the owners stay to negotiate with Fehr? It makes complete sense that the owners would revert back to the original format as well.

Fugu, I am surprised that you are so pro player in this discussion. You always seemed to have a balanced approach to discussions.

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12-07-2012, 08:54 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Sanderson View Post
Yes, he totally ran the league into the ground, there are only more teams than ever, higher revenue than ever and players make far more money than they ever did before, total hack-job

Seriously, if that's running something into the ground than I'd love to work for such a company.
Yeah because having lots of money losing teams is good right. Having revenue and NOT profit, which you apparently don't know the difference between is good because the owners are still losing money. Give me a break. The new league better have only 20 teams. You and pepper are unbelieveable, but I guess whatever since you have no stake in this.

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12-07-2012, 09:07 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Its nothing but a lie when you say that Fehr hasn't made any progress off Bettman's insane bust the union opening offer.

Fehr has made tremendous progress.
Considering they are still locked out, he has made zero progress.

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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
-After looking at all numbers, the owners opening offer would have given the players 43% (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/17/sp...nue-split.html). Fehr has increased the players share with 20%.

That is a result.
This is not a result. This is where the owners wanted to be based on the first offer. Players currently have 57% , we ask for 57% lets meet in the middle at 50%. If the owners started at 50 they would be talking about 53.5% to the players.

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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Fehr has forced the owners to at least honor parts of the contracts they signed this summer. I would call that a result.

-Bettman has been forced to back down from several insane limitations the owners and players rights to negotiate contracts, that would severly has limited a players freedom with little gain for the owners.

I would call that a result.
Again, not a result. The owners original offer was never the end game. Everything you have seen up until the players/owner meeting was getting to the actual deal the owners wanted. The real "gives" from the owners were the ones given during the current meeting and just pulled off the table.

The players better hope that the owners do not adjust their expectations since they just pissed off some of the moderate owners

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12-07-2012, 09:13 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Look at the deal the PA has offered.

Rethink what you said.

My own opinions are mine and I will respect yours. Money problems have been present in a lot of Owners circles since the 80's. That is what I have seen.

The Owners have been forced to offer long overpaid contracts to keep players. That is what I have seen.

I now hope we go to Replacement players and the Union decertify. Lets go to War and settle this mess.

This is what Don wants anyway as the Players are always getting screwed in the whole world of sport, not just the NHL. The great defender of Players must put on his Hollywood show once again and ruin a sport JUST LIKE MLB. Don needs to be on T.V. for a while yet, he's not gonna make a deal.

The NHL knows Donald and wanted to deal with Players directly. That is why progress is always made without Don around. The NHL showed this, they planned it, and we all understand it.

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12-07-2012, 09:25 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by oilexport View Post
My own opinions are mine and I will respect yours. Money problems have been present in a lot of Owners circles since the 80's. That is what I have seen.

The Owners have been forced to offer long overpaid contracts to keep players. That is what I have seen.

I now hope we go to Replacement players and the Union decertify. Lets go to War and settle this mess.

This is what Don wants anyway as the Players are always getting screwed in the whole world of sport, not just the NHL. The great defender of Players must put on his Hollywood show once again and ruin a sport JUST LIKE MLB. Don needs to be on T.V. for a while yet, he's not gonna make a deal.

The NHL knows Donald and wanted to deal with Players directly. That is why progress is always made without Don around. The NHL showed this, they planned it, and we all understand it.
The MLB is not destroyed. They just had their season. Why do NHL fans think they know everything?

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12-07-2012, 09:26 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
The MLB is not destroyed. They just had their season. Why do NHL fans think they know everything?
MLB was saved because of the Steroid Era. If that never happened, who knows if it bounces back like it did.

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12-07-2012, 09:34 AM
  #85
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It all comes down to what close the deal means. If it meant finalize, then the big wigs needed to come back in to sign off. If it meant negotiate the hard parts, then that meant the NHLPA wanted to return to full negotiating committee status (a ever changing group of players backing the Fehrs and their support team), which in turn obviously means the NHL would bring back their negotiating committee (a defined group, which does not include many of the owners at this week's meetings).

The NHL tried to end around the NHLPA negotiating committee with these meetings. The NHLPA tried to end around the NHL negotiating committee by entering into these meetings. Bully for both sides, they showed the others how they could both not get things done. Tough guys!


Last edited by Section337: 12-07-2012 at 09:40 AM.
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Old
12-07-2012, 09:34 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Does something like this matter?

adater ‏@adater
From deep inside players side: "We were ready to play again. But Don came in (Wed.) and told us we could get more and to hold out"
That right there is why it broke down.

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12-07-2012, 09:39 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
The MLB is not destroyed. They just had their season. Why do NHL fans think they know everything?
Don't kid yourself, the MLB was in serious danger of losing a lot of ground very quickly in the wake of the 1994 players' strike Fehr engineered. That would have cost the players as well as the owners a very great deal of money. They could have recovered eventually, but if it wasn't for McGuire, Bonds and Sosa, it would have taken a whole heck of a lot longer.

What I don't get is, why can't players just accept that if the owners make less money, their share of the pie is smaller, but the pie itself is probably larger because the league is more successful and able to promote itself better in the communities in which it resides? You want steady jobs and good pay? Then you WANT your owners to be rich and very profitable. I don't care if there's excess for the owners to pocket. That just means that ownership situations like the one in Phoenix are less likely to come up.

The thing I've never seen a union really deep down understand -- if you want to keep getting rich, then the business you work for needs to be getting rich too and throwing roadblocks in the way of that is bad business.
I could get the PA's grievance if they were going broke. They're not -- the days when players were ruining their bodies for peanuts are long gone, a player can be making league minimum for a 10 year career can set themselves nicely for a long retirement, much less what superstars get.

I guess with the owners actually looking at possible lost money in the deal, and the players only looking at making less than they did last year, I can see why the owners are dying on this particular hill, rather than I can see why the players are being so hardline about their side of the argument. THe players don't have anything near as much to lose as the owners do right now.

This isn't about anything the players need, economically. It's about getting less this year than you got last year -- in a recession no less -- and drawing the line in the sand THERE is foolish.

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12-07-2012, 09:40 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
That right there is why it broke down.
Yes, Yes! And again, perhaps the owners have made themselves look weak by continually making more concessions, while receiving very little of the same from the players. The owners ending this round by telling the players that they'll hear from them, that is a mistake. They should've said: We'll be waiting to hear back from you (the players) again.

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12-07-2012, 09:49 AM
  #89
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I don't know why, based on the latest informal agreements between the two sides, they didn't take a step back, draft a formal proposal along the lines of all the discussions (proposal drafted by D. Fehr), and presented it to the NHL.

It makes no sense to agree to player / owners only, then try to get Fehr to come back, unless you revert to the original negotiation approach. It makes perfect sense to discuss things, agree on things, then bring them to your leader and have him do his job.

It's clear that the NHL doesn't care to talk to Fehr more. It's also clear that having the players represent themselves in person, then checking in with Fehr in order to formalize things, would not have jeopardized this.

What a ridiculous pile of crap.

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12-07-2012, 09:51 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
That right there is why it broke down.
The representative from the Leafs (can't remember his name) and Bettman both said the tone of negotiations drastically changed from Tuesday to Wednesday. If accurate it does jyve with the statement from the annonmous player that they were instructed to hold out for more.

Perhaps it was a calculation on Fehr's part thinking that in due time the owners will capitulate. On teh other hand maybe it was a miscalculation and the players may have turned down the absolute best offer and what they will have to settle for in the future will be worse. Only time will tell.

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12-07-2012, 09:52 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
The MLB is not destroyed. They just had their season. Why do NHL fans think they know everything?
I know what I have seen. MLB Teams are not on an even keel. The Yanks and rich Teams are what the NHL was before the Cap era. The Rangers signed Gretzky, Messier, and all the stars and we in Edmonton gave up a Dynasty Team because of Money.

Thier needs to be a system where all Teams can compete on a fair basis. All this B.S. about Luxury Tax and Revenue share will not solve the problem by itself. N.Y Rangers and Toronto Maple Leafs are not going to support the rest of the League to the point of undue hardship on themselves.

Gary Bettman and the Owners have grown the Game to the point of :

-highest paid Hockey players in the World
-Best Hockey League in the World


having said that, the sport still is below Soccer, Football, Baseball, and Basketball due to those sports being played in Warm climates which most of the World population can relate to.

and yes, I do think I know everything....LOL

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12-07-2012, 09:55 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by oilexport View Post
Gary Bettman and the Owners have grown the Game to the point of :

-highest paid Hockey players in the World
-Best Hockey League in the World

having said that, the sport still is below Soccer, Football, Baseball, and Basketball due to those sports being played in Warm climates which most of the World population can relate to.
But the players (and some fans) don't seem to realize that.

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12-07-2012, 09:57 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Well go over to the lockout thread and look at the article from Cotsonika. I don't see anything there that's worth dying on hill over, to be honest. Between the agreement on variance and term limits (8 yrs from the PA proposal)..... the cap circumvention should no longer be a worry. If you can make the NHL's case for them, and why they wish to die on that hill, please do so (but over in the other thread). Thanks.
It's because the other issues they gave the players were agreed in the meeting to be in exchange for the 5 year, 5% variance, the 10 year cba and the $300 million make whole. How disingenuous is it to agree to that and try to negotiate off that after the fact? Sorry Fehr has absolutely no integrity and has made a lot of his constituents look very, very foolish.

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12-07-2012, 10:05 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
The representative from the Leafs (can't remember his name) and Bettman both said the tone of negotiations drastically changed from Tuesday to Wednesday. If accurate it does jyve with the statement from the annonmous player that they were instructed to hold out for more.

Perhaps it was a calculation on Fehr's part thinking that in due time the owners will capitulate. On teh other hand maybe it was a miscalculation and the players may have turned down the absolute best offer and what they will have to settle for in the future will be worse. Only time will tell.
Even if they got the same offer tomorrow, the players are losing game checks. Make whole won't apply to this year, why should it?

The players just very possibly threw away a season's worth of money because they wanted their union rep in the room.

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12-07-2012, 10:06 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Lorenzo1000 View Post
It's because the other issues they gave the players were agreed in the meeting to be in exchange for the 5 year, 5% variance, the 10 year cba and the $300 million make whole. How disingenuous is it to agree to that and try to negotiate off that after the fact? Sorry Fehr has absolutely no integrity and has made a lot of his constituents look very, very foolish.
agreed, Fehr has stopped this one dead in it's tracks. Any momentum was killed again....by this guy.

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12-07-2012, 10:08 AM
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Thier needs to be a system where all Teams can compete on a fair basis.
no there doesn't.

There needs to be a system where any team that's well run can dominate, and where any team has to be well run to dominate. That's not the same as equal competition or parity, although parity is one way to get it done.

The Tampa Bay Rays got to the World Series in 2008, they're one of the poorest teams in MLB. And the Yankees have to assemble a very good squad and not waste precious roster space on overpaid bums to win anything. As long as it can be done, and has to be done intelligently, it's fine.

I think a salary cap would help MLB, but the thing is, just like with the NHL, a salary cap would probably be set at somewhere around the level the top 5 teams are already spending at. If you add the kind of cap floor the NHL has to the mix you have a toxic situation there just like exists here.

I would get rid of the salary floor in the NHL. There's better ways to accomplish the same thing. You can't have both a hard cap and a hard floor with markets of varying sizes and strengths. The math just doesn't work.

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12-07-2012, 10:16 AM
  #97
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I expect the NHL to let the NHLPA union throw the season away and offer much less moving forward. In the end the union will have cost the players much more than the concessions they are so against.

The idea that they will hold out longer and get "more" is insane. Ask the employees of Hostess how it worked out for them because of the hardliners.

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12-07-2012, 10:17 AM
  #98
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Too bad that almost everyone of them are losing money. Or is that a lie and this indeed is all a sham?
And when was this said?

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12-07-2012, 10:19 AM
  #99
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Yes, Yes! And again, perhaps the owners have made themselves look weak by continually making more concessions, while receiving very little of the same from the players. The owners ending this round by telling the players that they'll hear from them, that is a mistake. They should've said: We'll be waiting to hear back from you (the players) again.
I'm trying to understand this POV and I haven't gotten very far with it.

The entire context of the lockout negotiation is HOW MUCH CAN THE LEAGUE TAKE FROM THE PLAYERS. It starts with the players giving up dollars and rights and it will end with the players giving up dollars and rights. Everybody knows this, even the players. Even the Mighty Fehr. The only question is how much of each will the PA ultimately give.

The owners aren't "conceding," ever. They are offering to take less.

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12-07-2012, 10:20 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Yes, Yes! And again, perhaps the owners have made themselves look weak by continually making more concessions, while receiving very little of the same from the players. The owners ending this round by telling the players that they'll hear from them, that is a mistake. They should've said: We'll be waiting to hear back from you (the players) again.
What concessions have the owners made?

They owe the players $596 million in salary this upcoming year but they offered the players to pay only $200 million of that. Signing players in bad faith. Oh they gave another $100 million to make it $300 of the original players costs.

Look at it this way. I hire you and say I am going to pay you 50k a year. You get your first check and it shows you making only 35k and you ask why is that? I say well I only want to pay you 35k even though I said I would pay you 50K. You argue and threaten to quit and then I say ok I will give you 40k there ya go I made a concession. I am still not paying you the 50k I originally promised.

That is bad faith bargaining even before the lockout happened.

Now they want to take away contract length and not allow any owner to sign a guy for more than 5 years. Why does the NHL care how you sign your own employee?

They need to babysit the owners who circumvented the cap spirit and created the uneven playing field between large markets and small markets.

Why did the NHL put a salary cap floor in. Who cares what a team pay for salary it will only affect their product on the ice.

You name one concession that the players gave in.

How about the players giving into a cap and 24 % rollback in 04

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