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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VIIII: "We're Close" "We're Not Close" Edition

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Old
12-07-2012, 08:18 AM
  #176
Lundsanity30
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Absolutely neither side has done anything to help this process from the beginning. They both want a my way or the highway deal. They can all screw off

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12-07-2012, 08:23 AM
  #177
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My biggest worry, and it has been this way for a while now, is that leadership on the two sides are too consumed with "winning" the negotiation rather than whats best for everyone.

Fehr will have to do a monumental job of keeping the union together after this latest breakdown. The masses have to be getting anxious to play hockey, especially those making less than the league average. These things happen, and the league is all to happy to exploit it.

I can only imagine how a player making less than a million dollars per year felt last night watching Fehr speak with Crosby, Richards, and St. Louis behind him - 3 guys that dont have to worry about their next mortgage payment.

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12-07-2012, 08:50 AM
  #178
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1 captain and another 2 leaders. FWIW.

Players may recognize the pattern from last time and hang tight. With 700 members there will be many reactions. We heard the offer and loved it. The only thing to change the fan mood is the owners' reaction. We know fair and can see movement to the middle. Yesterday was posturing. The league has a history of accepting concessions and being ungrateful... I doubt they are truly miffed.

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12-07-2012, 08:54 AM
  #179
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I really question how close the two sides are on dollars still.

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12-07-2012, 08:59 AM
  #180
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Yesterday was very disappointing.

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12-07-2012, 09:02 AM
  #181
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This isn't a typical business model, so applying traditional role principles to this fight is pointless. On that same token, it's not a typical labor argument. I wouldn't say I'm pro-union or anti-union -- I believe fully in the fundamental principles, but I'm not entirely sure they're being applied correctly -- but I can't think of too many unionized work-forces outside of professional sports where the "laborers" can make upwards of $10M per year, while their fellow union members might make that over their entire career if they're lucky. In my humble opinion, that really throws a wrench into the gears.

So, my question becomes: How do you effectively negotiate a labor contract when there is such a huge conflict of interest? 80% of the league likely doesn't care about the "make whole" provision because what they'd earn back over time will likely never amount to what they've already lost. Whatever player Dater spoke to last night is right; It's very hard for a guy making $800k to sit out this long while "the Ryan Millers and Brad Richards of the world pretend this is a sacrifice for them." Brad Richards made more on July 1st when he got his signing-bonus than most of these players will see in a lifetime. I know if I was a minimum-salary player I'd have a hard time believing that those guys understand my sense of urgency to get a paycheck.

However, regardless of all that, my main issue with all of this is how little accountability either side seems to hold for how they've treated the fans, and, most importantly in my opinion, the people who are employed by these franchises and whose livelihoods truly depend on this game.

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12-07-2012, 09:03 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
At what cost thought? We're talking about a 50% paycut this year (at best, could be 100%) for what exactly? An additional 100M in make whole (50% paycut is a net loss of 950M)? The (hope) that the top players will not be limited to 5 yr deals?

For the vast majority of today's PA the outcome of this dispute is a net loss, where any incremental gains in negotiating are being offset by lost games.
i completely agree, which is why i thought he should have gotten a deal done this week

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12-07-2012, 09:06 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
I really question how close the two sides are on dollars still.
Me too - although Daly's quote about contract limits was incredibly stupid.

Still, I refuse to believe that this thing is solely contingent upon contract and CBA length at this point.

This leadership group is the gang that couldnt shoot straight when it comes to negotiations.

The make-whole amount is at $300M, contingent upon 5 year term limits. You want 8 year limits? The make-whole goes down accordingly.

Seems simple - not with this gang.

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12-07-2012, 09:07 AM
  #184
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The NHLPA is only making this worse for themselves by holding out.

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12-07-2012, 09:12 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
1 captain and another 2 leaders. FWIW.
They are "captains and leaders" because they are great hockey players -- that doesnt mean I'd want them representing me in a labor negotiation.

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12-07-2012, 09:12 AM
  #186
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Upshall:
“Plain and simple these owners think they can break us apart. GOOD LUCK! We r stronger than we’ve ever been and r behind Fehr 100%”.
“There's no pressure yet on the owners to lose this year, that's why they still treat us like Cattle. They'll need a partner come January.”

Sedin:
"I think from Day 1, this has fallen into what we really thought was going to happen," Sedin told the paper. "I don't know if they [owners] think they're dealing with kids or that we're stupid or think the fans are stupid. It's a little mind-boggling when you see what's coming out of their side. I want to hear a change, that they're actually going to give us something in return for the things we've given them.

So, let’s put this into perspective a little bit.
Henrik Sedin is on a 5 year contract worth about $30,000,000. Break it down WEEKLY paychecks in the amount of $117,308. <--The average median ANNUAL income per family for Vancouver BC is approximately $63,000. Henrik almost doubles that in one weekly paycheck.

Scottie Upshall is on a 4 year contract worth $14,000,000. Break it down WEEKLY paychecks in the amount of $67,308. <--The total median ANNUAL income per family for the State of Florida is $46,136. Scotty makes more than that in 1 week!

I am NOT on either side. I have haven't even posted in forever simply out of sheer disgust over the whole thing. But...the tweets and comments from some of these players are really starting to annoy the **** out of me. They just scream..."The world owes me more"

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Old
12-07-2012, 09:37 AM
  #187
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The players are employees, yes, but their role is much different than the employee of, say, an auto plant. In an auto plant, the employees are producing the product, which costs a certain amount to make. The car is then sold, the company makes a certain amount of gross profit. Out of that gross profit, the car company pays it's factory employees. It also pays it's salesmen, advertising team, plant operation, dealership operation, etc, etc out of this gross profit.

In a sports league, the product is the game and paying the players is more like paying for the cost of car parts in this analogy. The salary of the players is part of the initial cost of the product. The profit (or loss) the owners make beyond that is their gross profit, out of which they pay their training, coaching, scouting and executive staffs as well as any travel and team operation expenses. So yes, players are employees, but they mainly fulfill a different function in the industry than typical employees.

Paying 57% of your revenue for your product is not exorbitant. I've worked jobs in retail in which I saw P&L statements. The typical margin that was being made, strictly on the cost of buying the goods from the manufacturer, transporting it to the store and selling it, was around 40%.

My main point is that the players are not your typical employees that should be compared with everyday people. Not even the people in other worker's unions throughout the country. What the union should be compared with is a conglomerate of car parts manufacturers or a company who makes products that retail stores buy from and sell at a profit of their own.

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12-07-2012, 09:40 AM
  #188
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Cros***** is back in Pittsburgh. He had to fly commercial after Ron Burkle left early. Cindy went to NY with Burke and Mario Lemieux on Burkle's plane. Cros***** agent Pat Brisson worked with them to get a deal. Cindy got out of NY before the drizzle arrived.

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12-07-2012, 09:41 AM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Cros***** is back in Pittsburgh. He had to fly commercial after Ron Burkle left early. Cindy went to NY with Burke and Mario Lemieux on Burkle's plane. Cros***** agent Pat Brisson worked with them to get a deal. Cindy got out of NY before the drizzle arrived.
Can you tell me why he was allowed to speak with them for weeks, while normally they are not allowed to?

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12-07-2012, 09:44 AM
  #190
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Pretty funny
Hahaha


Last edited by BBKers: 12-07-2012 at 09:56 AM.
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12-07-2012, 09:47 AM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Cros***** is back in Pittsburgh. He had to fly commercial after Ron Burkle left early. Cindy went to NY with Burke and Mario Lemieux on Burkle's plane. Cros***** agent Pat Brisson worked with them to get a deal. Cindy got out of NY before the drizzle arrived.
Ummm why is he allowed to fly with Burkle and Lemieux?

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12-07-2012, 09:50 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Callys Chicken Parm View Post
Ummm why is he allowed to fly with Burkle and Lemieux?
I've been wondering this for days. He was speaking to them for weeks, even before the NHL allowed the players and owners to meet privately.

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12-07-2012, 09:55 AM
  #193
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I love watching the hatred for Crosby give way to conspiracy theories.

Bettman OK'ed player/owner interaction weeks ago, FYI - but Im sure he did it with a wink when it came to Burkle and Crosby.

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12-07-2012, 09:57 AM
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I love watching the hatred for Crosby give way to conspiracy theories.

Bettman OK'ed player/owner interaction weeks ago, FYI - but Im sure he did it with a wink when it came to Burkle and Crosby.


I don't remember him okaying that.

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12-07-2012, 10:06 AM
  #195
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They are "captains and leaders" because they are great hockey players -- that doesnt mean I'd want them representing me in a labor negotiation.
I think the NHL leader is bit more than talent. I'm not saying it accounts for much but as far as other players looking at them, I would think an amount of trust exists as opposed to animosity.

Reading comments, I get the impression people think make whole is the issue. I don't think it means as much to either side. This is about contracts. That issue impacts stars more, but everyone feels it, be it direct or indirect.

I don't think 62 games was on the slate. NBC probably had a fit over paying 100% for 62 games. They met with Bettman a few weeks back and supposedly were not happy. They aren't in a rush and yesterday was posturing to scare the PA. They will meet in a week and compromise on all of the year issues. When Daly and Bettman act offended over a pension funded by players, I think we are in posturing mode.

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12-07-2012, 10:10 AM
  #196
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I don't remember him okaying that.
Was it the 72 hour window to explain management's position?

That ended weeks ago and no bargaining was allowed. I'm not buying conspiracy theories but the Crosby/Burkle stuff was explained poorly. It left the impression the two sides have been in constant negotiations.

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12-07-2012, 10:12 AM
  #197
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Was it the 72 hour window to explain management's position?

That ended weeks ago and no bargaining was allowed. I'm not buying conspiracy theories but the Crosby/Burkle stuff was explained poorly. It left the impression the two sides have been in constant negotiations.
So was he speaking with them for 72 hours or for weeks? The article on the BoH board says weeks.

I'm not trying to start some conspiracy; I just want to know how that makes sense.

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12-07-2012, 10:16 AM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
I think the NHL leader is bit more than talent. I'm not saying it accounts for much but as far as other players looking at them, I would think an amount of trust exists as opposed to animosity.

Reading comments, I get the impression people think make whole is the issue. I don't think it means as much to either side. This is about contracts. That issue impacts stars more, but everyone feels it, be it direct or indirect.

I don't think 62 games was on the slate. NBC probably had a fit over paying 100% for 62 games. They met with Bettman a few weeks back and supposedly were not happy. They aren't in a rush and yesterday was posturing to scare the PA. They will meet in a week and compromise on all of the year issues. When Daly and Bettman act offended over a pension funded by players, I think we are in posturing mode.
We've had our disagreements throughout this thing, but Im on the same page with you with contracts. The NHL needs to get its fiscal house in order and the drop in player's share from 57 to 50 percent does that (attached to make-whole). I cant understand whatsoever how any of the peripheral issues are worth losing a full season over.

If they fix the year to year variance issues for contracts, then term length almost becomes a non-factor.

I was convinced that there was more to it than the contracting issues until Daly gave that idiotic quote about dying on a hill for limits.

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12-07-2012, 10:17 AM
  #199
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I'm still laughing over what went down last night. Truly comical.

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12-07-2012, 10:21 AM
  #200
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The major problem is that every issue is seemingly dealt with in a vacuum and is absolute.

There doesnt seem to be any "OK, we offered 300M for make-whole, if you want to move the contract limits up to 8 years, that means $50M is coming out of the make-whole fund"

Instead its "OK, make-whole is done - next step contract term limits. What? you want 8 years instead of 5? Well, that make-whole thing is completely off the table now"

The scary thing is Bettman wasnt even the room, but his negotiating tactics, if you can even call them that, seems to have permeated throughout.

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