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Ilitch Announces New Arena Plans

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12-05-2012, 09:56 PM
  #76
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Don't live in the state anymore but if they have 27 senate seats all to themselves I would be stunned. This passed the state senate at 27-11.

This is a little more complex than just one evil side of the isle and I think unfair to put that way. While the 12.8 million they had been paying over the years was about to free up there was a fight over how that would be used also. The democratic leader that ripped this plan wanted to put it in college funds. Sounds nice but that isn't for the total benefit of all Detroit school children either. Some absolutely, but they were going to have a big fight about what to do with it anyway. I am not even sure they weren't trying to push some of that money statewide, as Gretchen Whitmer who is making most the noise about this is a representative not from the Detroit area.

8,300 projected jobs with 1.9 million right there and a projected long term gain over a billion dollars pumped in doesn't sound to bad either. I am waiting to see where they want to put this to get more critical on it. But on the surface I can see why they supported it and I think people are jumping the gun here. The wings were going to get a new arena at somepoint, if this is done correctly it could be a huge gain for the city of Detroit.

I do wonder what the league thinks of this. I am sure the NHLPA could start running new numbers on Detroit, this stadium will likely push them higher up the food chain and they are already a decent earner.

Also just to be clear Ilitch really sits on both sides, but they track money on big figures like this so his history of giving money to candidates is well known.

http://www.newsmeat.com/billionaire_...ael_Ilitch.php

* Very surprised as a search shows that Republicans do in fact hold 26 of the 38 seats.

Pretty sure Richardville meant $1.9B and not $1.9M

Either way, he's spinning.

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12-05-2012, 10:07 PM
  #77
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SENATE LEGISLATORS ALL VOTES
n Anderson (D) n Bieda (D) Y Booher (R) Y Brandenburg (R) Y Casperson (R)
n Caswell (R) n Colbeck (R) Y Emmons (R) Y Gleason (D) Y Green (R)
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Senate Roll Call 822 on 2012 House Bill 5463

Republican Senators were 84 percent in favor. Dems were 41 percent in favor.
Of the five Dems who voted yes, 4 are from Detroit or close by.

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12-05-2012, 10:09 PM
  #78
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I love the idea but I'm weary of how it will be funded and if the mixed use element will ever see the light of day. I firmly believe Ilitch threw that in there as a carrot to make funding an arena more palatable. Quite honestly, the Ilitch record on building anything non-entertainment is awful. They own an array of abandoned buildings that every few years, they send out PR announcing plans but nothing happens with them. If you go back to when the CoPa was first proposed, it too had grand mixed use plans. They were never built unless you count parking structures and the Hockeytown Cafe. After the CoPa was finished, they floated another mixed use project on Columbia Street. You never heard another word about it. It just fell off the face of the earth.

I have a lot of respect for Mr. I but he needs to put up and actually build at least one of these grand proposals. Most of the new businesses in the area are being built in spite of Ilitch as they continue to let buildings and plots of land decay. It would be nice to see them take the lead on something that's not sports related.

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12-06-2012, 01:51 AM
  #79
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There's so much money in a Patriot Place style development, especially in that location. They'd be idiots not to build it.

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12-06-2012, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Sadekuuro View Post
That's from Wikipedia (referring to the University of Washington, Seattle). Appears to be true. UW brought in $1.513 billion in 2011.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The UofM blurb links to the 2010 NSF tables.
Michigan is actually 2nd in research spending -- according to the NSF tables ~25% is "institution funds" i.e. internal/endowment revenue reallocated to R&D spending. The NSF tables indeed have UW in 2nd place for federal funding, but they are 4th in total spending because they have very low institution funds.

But as with most higher education rankings this is a bit misleading in the sense that the overwhelming majority of funding is for health care research and other "life sciences" (hence why Johns Hopkins is 1st by far, despite being a non-factor in almost every other discipline).

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12-06-2012, 08:34 AM
  #81
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I love the idea but I'm weary of how it will be funded and if the mixed use element will ever see the light of day.
It's always possible that the mixed use component will be dropped, but I'd prefer to see plans for a building that has 24/7 use that might get scaled back for whatever reason, then start out with plans for a structure that's guaranteed to only be used a few hours a day on a few days a week and have no way of expanding on it going forward because the funding has already been secured for what's been planned.

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12-06-2012, 09:34 AM
  #82
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You're probably right. One way they may be able to sell it is if it actually doesn't create new taxes; and if the amount isn't very large. $12 MM doesn't sound terrible, but it still is public money.
And that's how it starts. Sacrifice your principles by giving in a little bit. Then a little more, and a little more, etc.

In a few months you will be calling the city of Detroit cheap and wondering why Illitch doesn't just move the team to escape these cheapskates who won't chip in a few hundred million toward the good of the city.

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12-06-2012, 10:58 AM
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Michigan Senate OKs bill allowing use of tax money to help finance new arena for Red Wings

http://www.faceoff.com/sports/hockey...461/story.html

The Michigan Senate approved legislation Wednesday to help finance a downtown Detroit project that would include a new home for the NHL's Detroit Red Wings. The bill approved by the Senate would allow use of tax dollars collected by the city's Downtown Development Authority for the project.

"This is a direct subsidy by school kids to allow a billionaire to build a hockey arena," Whitmer said. "That's the Republican agenda we all know and love. ... It makes me sick. I hear my colleagues say, 'Oh, this is for Detroit and we're all in favour of Detroit now,' because one billionaire called you.'"


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12-06-2012, 11:33 AM
  #84
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Am I the only one who thinks a city/state giving this much money to a city that has a almost 50% illiteracy rate for adults is a little misguided? Should this money not go into the school systems so the city is creating quality, high functioning people that won't need to relay on the government, be able to improve there own lives?

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12-06-2012, 12:02 PM
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Am I the only one who thinks a city/state giving this much money to a city that has a almost 50% illiteracy rate for adults is a little misguided? Should this money not go into the school systems so the city is creating quality, high functioning people that won't need to relay on the government, be able to improve there own lives?
Maybe, but is building a few schools and adding police going to solve the problem? I am one who thinks that the majority of the time (aside from the occasional success story) faculty and staff can't fix the problems stemming from outside the building.

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12-06-2012, 12:16 PM
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Maybe, but is building a few schools and adding police going to solve the problem? I am one who thinks that the majority of the time (aside from the occasional success story) faculty and staff can't fix the problems stemming from outside the building.
Regardless, I don't think people want to see government pulling money out of school for private industry..Especially a frivolous industry like prosports... where owners make cash and players make millions, but 90 percent of the jobs created art part-time, minimum wage jobs-- the kinds of jobs that are subsidized with our tax dollars (foodstamps, medicaid etc)

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12-06-2012, 12:20 PM
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Regardless, I don't think people want to see government pulling money out of school for private industry..Especially a frivolous industry like prosports... where owners make cash and players make millions, but 90 percent of the jobs created art part-time, minimum wage jobs-- the kinds of jobs that are subsidized with our tax dollars (foodstamps, medicaid etc)
You're Canadian..?

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12-06-2012, 12:33 PM
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Regardless, I don't think people want to see government pulling money out of school for private industry..Especially a frivolous industry like prosports... where owners make cash and players make millions, but 90 percent of the jobs created art part-time, minimum wage jobs-- the kinds of jobs that are subsidized with our tax dollars (foodstamps, medicaid etc)
I've yet to see any report stating that schools are getting decreases in funding when a stadium gets built.

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12-06-2012, 12:48 PM
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I've yet to see any report stating that schools are getting decreases in funding when a stadium gets built.
http://www.faceoff.com/sports/hockey...461/story.html

The bill approved by the Senate would allow use of tax dollars collected by the city's Downtown Development Authority for the project.

The city's DDA has been allowed for nearly two decades to pay down general obligation bonds with about $12.8 million a year that otherwise would have gone to education, she said. Now that those bonds are paid off, the bill would tap that same revenue stream for Ilitch's project instead of finally steering the money back to education.


Education is not seeing a decrease in funding, they are just not going to receive the funding that was suppose to be going their way in the first place.

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12-06-2012, 12:55 PM
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And that's how it starts. Sacrifice your principles by giving in a little bit. Then a little more, and a little more, etc.

In a few months you will be calling the city of Detroit cheap and wondering why Illitch doesn't just move the team to escape these cheapskates who won't chip in a few hundred million toward the good of the city.
No, I still don't support the use of the public money-- and especially in a place like Detroit that doesn't have much of it.

Tom Wilson was brought over from Palace Entertainment to manage this effort. The Palace of Auburn Hills was 100% privately funded when Davidson had it built. I think between Ilitch, and the Amway billionaires, they could find a few investors and do the entire thing privately. It would be the right thing to do.

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12-06-2012, 12:57 PM
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http://www.faceoff.com/sports/hockey...461/story.html

The bill approved by the Senate would allow use of tax dollars collected by the city's Downtown Development Authority for the project.

The city's DDA has been allowed for nearly two decades to pay down general obligation bonds with about $12.8 million a year that otherwise would have gone to education, she said. Now that those bonds are paid off, the bill would tap that same revenue stream for Ilitch's project instead of finally steering the money back to education.


Education is not seeing a decrease in funding, they are just not going to receive the funding that was suppose to be going their way in the first place.
The way I read that article, the DDA collects taxes to buy and develop property in downtown Detroit. I fail to see how buying property and developing an arena on it falls outside of the what those taxes are designed to achieve. That money only goes to education if it's not spent on its principal purpose of developing downtown property; it was not "supposed" to go to education.

It's only this Gretchen Whitmer idiot who is going out of her way to twist this into a case of "a student-subsidized stadium for a billionaire. Her argument is flawed at the most fundamental level.

I'm not going to cut you down if you think funding education is a more worthwhile pursuit than building a stadium, but education is not what this money was primarily earmarked for.

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12-06-2012, 01:01 PM
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I just find it sad when owners like Mike Ilitch start going to the public to help finance a building when he could do it out of his own pocket. Raise the price of each pizza 10 cents and use that to pay for your building.

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12-06-2012, 01:02 PM
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The way I read that article, the DDA collects taxes to buy and develop property in downtown Detroit. I fail to see how buying property and developing an arena on it falls outside of the what those taxes are designed to achieve. That money only goes to education if it's not spent on its principal purpose of developing downtown property; it was not "supposed" to go to education.

It's only this Gretchen Whitmer idiot who is going out of her way to twist this into a case of "a student-subsidized stadium for a billionaire. Her argument is flawed at the most fundamental level.

I'm not going to cut you down if you think funding education is a more worthwhile pursuit than building a stadium, but education is not what this money was primarily earmarked for.
Fair enough..I'm just going by what Whitmer is claiming.

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12-06-2012, 01:07 PM
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I just find it sad when owners like Mike Ilitch start going to the public to help finance a building when he could do it out of his own pocket. Raise the price of each pizza 10 cents and use that to pay for your building.
Or the public could recognize the benefit it receives from having such a building in their community (just because the community value of an arena can't be put on a balance sheet doesn't mean it's non-existent) and pay their fair share, especially when tax money is being raised specifically for such endeavours.

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12-06-2012, 03:21 PM
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Think of it this way, instead of a hole in the middle of the city, that generates no jobs, taxes or usability, they Okd a new arena that will house jobs, bring in tax monies and not be a blight on the landscape. The police will have something to protect, instead of a burned out husk full of junkies and bangers and it will be used for much more than just Hockey. I like it.

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12-06-2012, 03:46 PM
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The way I read that article, the DDA collects taxes to buy and develop property in downtown Detroit. I fail to see how buying property and developing an arena on it falls outside of the what those taxes are designed to achieve. That money only goes to education if it's not spent on its principal purpose of developing downtown property; it was not "supposed" to go to education.

It's only this Gretchen Whitmer idiot who is going out of her way to twist this into a case of "a student-subsidized stadium for a billionaire. Her argument is flawed at the most fundamental level.

I'm not going to cut you down if you think funding education is a more worthwhile pursuit than building a stadium, but education is not what this money was primarily earmarked for.
DDA tax districts take money from schools, police, fire and just about every other local entity funded by local property taxes.

My question is, why does this need a Senate Bills? Because there is more pork involved than your typical DDA project is my guess.

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12-06-2012, 03:50 PM
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Or the public could recognize the benefit it receives from having such a building in their community (just because the community value of an arena can't be put on a balance sheet doesn't mean it's non-existent) and pay their fair share, especially when tax money is being raised specifically for such endeavours.
Interesting response.
But we have scarce resources. Public dollars are being stretched just trying to care for people who actually need it.

It's tough to justify corporate welfare for the rich. But I am sure people will try

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12-06-2012, 04:50 PM
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Fair enough..I'm just going by what Whitmer is claiming.
You should take a closer look at what she actually proposed they do with the money. She isn't putting it directly back into the city. What does she want to do with the 12 million dollars? She wants to make it a college scholarship fund. Now sure that is going to help some kids, a lot of which already by state laws qualify for help with funds, but it also allows a redistribution as this can be the primary fund picked for kids from Detroit. Then by the way some of the money tied up there can go back out to the MSU and U of M and other Universities to use at their own discretion. Now the outrage out of her is great but I understand her plan. First of all she wants to run for Governor as she cannot return to a Senate seat and needs to get her name out there. But key is that she wants to redistribute money into her own area where she represents Lansing i.e. Michigan State. This noble drive to save Detroit plays well, really almost all the Detroit Democrats and Republicans back this bill.

DDA money is around for these kind of projects. If it isn't being used they argue about how it gets used. Just because one person comes out and says it goes to the schools and police doesn't mean it does. It doesn't even mean it all stays in the general area. In fact with how corrupt the Detroit government has been if they wanted to give money to schools they should probably just give it to somebody like an Ilitch to watch over it anyway and distribute himself, to make sure it doesn't wind up being cash for pencils after everyone takes their cut. Find it interesting that he does things for Cooley High School his alma mater in town and guess what he overseas those contributions all by himself.

But I still think it is important to remember this money would have to be voted on to use in any capacity. It is just as likely they might fix some of the parks and change the lights downtown or do something that isn't as great sounding in an angry sound bite.

It is also crucial that the rumored location connects two parts of Detroit that have rebounded, they basically can create a very nice corridor for a decent space. This is exactly what Indianapolis, Cleveland and other city developments have used quite successfully. It will really help Wayne State University as well.

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12-06-2012, 09:37 PM
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I just find it sad when owners like Mike Ilitch start going to the public to help finance a building when he could do it out of his own pocket.
Calling Mr. Daryl Katz.....................Mr. Daryl Katz

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12-07-2012, 09:47 AM
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DDA tax districts take money from schools, police, fire and just about every other local entity funded by local property taxes.

My question is, why does this need a Senate Bills? Because there is more pork involved than your typical DDA project is my guess.
It went to the Senate because of Proposal A that Michigan voters passed in 1994. Proposal A forced TIF and TIP districts to only take school tax money to cover existing debt. Any excess money is returned to the state. A new hockey arena is new debt. As a result of this deal, instead of the DDA paying off debt that it owes to the school district, the 10-15 million (varies due to economic conditions) a year will be used for a hockey arena. The bill also exempts a DDA from all taxation on its earnings or property.

DDA's issue tax exempt bonds. In the case of the CoPa, taxpayers lost $36 million after the DDA took out $80 million in those bonds. As of now, Wayne County and Detroit still owe at least $61 million on public debt for Comerica Park. It was re-financed a few months ago to try to save some money as the debt had a 6% interest rate that ran through 2027. The goal was to cut it to 3%.

Ilitch himself has had all kinds of problems trying to pay down CoPa debt. He was rejected by local banks to finance the project from the get go and had to turn to Sumitomo Bank of Japan to get the deal done. In 2000, he attempted to get over $200 million in financing from a group that included Merrill Lynch but was rejected when credit agencies didn't rate the Tigers debt high enough. He tried to refinance his debt in 2001 but was rejected once again. As the Tigers floundered at the gate, he became desperate and borrowed $140 million in 2005 from a group led by Sumitomo to pay off what was $115 million in debt from his original $145 million loan.

In summary, you can see why this is a delicate issue. The public still owes boatloads of money on the CoPa and Ilitich struggled to pay for it since the Tigers were so awful during the first years of its life. OTOH, The Palace was paid for privately as was 90% of Ford Field. If you look at Ilitich's financing struggles at the CoPa, I'm not sure he could get a new arena done on his own.

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