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Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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Old
12-06-2012, 11:39 PM
  #426
ALine
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I got some bad news for you, it's your countries players who chose not to go, not the other way around.
Hockey Canada would love to have them, but they would rather play golf or do nothing than play for their country. True story.

If these players wanted, they could assemble a 90% Olympic team for WC. So really, there is no excuse..
There is a very reasonable excuse, actually. The KHL season is 52 games, starting Sept. 4 and running until Feb. 17. The playoffs run to mid to late April. The NHL season is an 82 game grind, starting with preseason in September and concluding in April. Playoffs running until mid June. WHC begins early May.

Players are humans. They need rest and recovery time from nagging injuries sustain throughout the season, they want to spend time with their families, as there isn't a lot of time for that during the season with all the travel. And yes, they want to have some fun and de-stress. This is true for players of both leagues.

For KHL players (majority being Russian) that don't make the playoffs, have over 2 months before the start of the WHC. Even the league champion players have a solid few weeks of rest before the commencement of the WHC.

For NHL players ( the majority being Canadian) that don't make the playoffs , have at most a couple of weeks before the tournament begins. First round exits have a matter of days to make it over to wherever in Europe it is being held. All after player a more grueling schedule in a more physical league.

This is why there is a very valid excuse for the low turnout for this tournement. It's not about lack of national pride. It's about lack of rest and recouperation. Something KHL players are able to get plenty of before the start of the WHC, and NHL players get very little before it starts.

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12-07-2012, 01:32 AM
  #427
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Originally Posted by ALine View Post
There is a very reasonable excuse, actually. The KHL season is 52 games, starting Sept. 4 and running until Feb. 17. The playoffs run to mid to late April. The NHL season is an 82 game grind, starting with preseason in September and concluding in April. Playoffs running until mid June. WHC begins early May.

Players are humans. They need rest and recovery time from nagging injuries sustain throughout the season, they want to spend time with their families, as there isn't a lot of time for that during the season with all the travel. And yes, they want to have some fun and de-stress. This is true for players of both leagues.

For KHL players (majority being Russian) that don't make the playoffs, have over 2 months before the start of the WHC. Even the league champion players have a solid few weeks of rest before the commencement of the WHC.

For NHL players ( the majority being Canadian) that don't make the playoffs , have at most a couple of weeks before the tournament begins. First round exits have a matter of days to make it over to wherever in Europe it is being held. All after player a more grueling schedule in a more physical league.

This is why there is a very valid excuse for the low turnout for this tournement. It's not about lack of national pride. It's about lack of rest and recouperation. Something KHL players are able to get plenty of before the start of the WHC, and NHL players get very little before it starts.
That is not an excuse, that's just a bunch of babble. Russian, and not only Russian NHLers make it to WC year after year, even after 2nd round playoff exits, while they're NHL teammates (Ahem like Crosby) don't. These guys contribute to the National team significantly.

And if the NHL team doesn't make the playoffs 2 weeks is MORE than plenty of time for recuperation. Apparently less is enough to start playoffs, so why not some short WC tournament? Especially for the pros.

And actually, last year the KHL finalists had something like 3 days before the start of WC and were on top line with Malkin. BTW, KHL NT players play 56 games + 12 Eurotour games. Their camps also start in July, while NHL starts in mid-September.

This has been done forever. If you really believe these excuses you have to be delusional, because their teammates are doing the exact opposite.

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12-07-2012, 01:51 AM
  #428
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I got some bad news for you, it's your countries players who chose not to go, not the other way around.
Hockey Canada would love to have them, but they would rather play golf or do nothing than play for their country. True story.

If these players wanted, they could assemble a 90% Olympic team for WC. So really, there is no excuse..
I was referring to the Olys, not the WC. I realize lots of players here don't care to go, hence the "also ran" comment. The tourney just doesn't matter enough in Canada.

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12-07-2012, 01:55 AM
  #429
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never heard that one before, you hockey fans from Vancouver are such a RIOT!
I'm just happy we have had something to riot about.

TBH, I've never heard the proposal to host the WC in TO. Sorry.

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12-07-2012, 02:17 AM
  #430
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
That is not an excuse, that's just a bunch of babble. Russian, and not only Russian NHLers make it to WC year after year, even after 2nd round playoff exits, while they're NHL teammates (Ahem like Crosby) don't. These guys contribute to the National team significantly.

And if the NHL team doesn't make the playoffs 2 weeks is MORE than plenty of time for recuperation. Apparently less is enough to start playoffs, so why not some short WC tournament? Especially for the pros.

And actually, last year the KHL finalists had something like 3 days before the start of WC and were on top line with Malkin. BTW, KHL NT players play 56 games + 12 Eurotour games. Their camps also start in July, while NHL starts in mid-September.

This has been done forever. If you really believe these excuses you have to be delusional, because their teammates are doing the exact opposite.
That's the argument right there.

Fact is American and Canadian players just don't have the same passion for international play.

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12-07-2012, 07:21 AM
  #431
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
I'm just happy we have had something to riot about.

TBH, I've never heard the proposal to host the WC in TO. Sorry.
From what I hear the Bauer guy who is trying to build that 20,000 seat arena in Markham has talked about the possibility for the 2015 WC and a joint bid for the U20 2015 WJC. Realistically, I doubt the World Championships ever makes a return to NA until the 200 year jubilee. And I'm fine with that... but if the arena does get built, the WJC in 2015. BTW anybody have any updates on the Markham arena project?

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12-07-2012, 07:28 AM
  #432
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Olympics 2010 anyone?

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12-07-2012, 08:19 AM
  #433
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I got some bad news for you, it's your countries players who chose not to go, not the other way around.
Hockey Canada would love to have them, but they would rather play golf or do nothing than play for their country. True story.

If these players wanted, they could assemble a 90% Olympic team for WC. So really, there is no excuse..
It's not an excuse, it's a reality.

Nobody here cares who wins the World Championships which does diminish its prestige.

The Olympics is clearly the most important tournament right now, and its only been a real competition since it became open to all players.

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12-07-2012, 08:28 AM
  #434
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I got some bad news for you, it's your countries players who chose not to go, not the other way around.
Hockey Canada would love to have them, but they would rather play golf or do nothing than play for their country. True story.

If these players wanted, they could assemble a 90% Olympic team for WC. So really, there is no excuse..
But they don't because they do not see it as a worthwhile tournament. It isn't worth their time or effort.

Unless you have the best there, it is not going to be a top level tournament. I understand in Europe it is loved, and that is fine, but in NA it is not important and since the majority of top level players come from NA it diminishes the reputation/quality of the WHC.

Enjoy it for what it is, entertaining hockey, but don't pretend the best players are there, because it is not true, many never even consider it.

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12-07-2012, 09:59 AM
  #435
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
It's not an excuse, it's a reality.

Nobody here cares who wins the World Championships which does diminish its prestige.

The Olympics is clearly the most important tournament right now, and its only been a real competition since it became open to all players.
Nobody outside of Canada gives a **** about Junior championship, but somehow, since Canada cares, it has high prestige? Until 2 years ago in Sweden we barely knew the tournament was being played.

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12-07-2012, 10:04 AM
  #436
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
Nobody outside of Canada gives a **** about Junior championship, but somehow, since Canada cares, it has high prestige? Until 2 years ago in Sweden we barely knew the tournament was being played.
Sure seems like Russia, Sweden, Finland the rest of the Euro hockey nations care. I would say only the general population of the USA doesn't care. They send their best Jrs, and that's what counts.

Again, hold the WHC at a time that doesnt conflict with the playoffs and you will see people start to care. But when you are going head to head with the most important hockey on the planet, you cannot win.

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12-07-2012, 10:05 AM
  #437
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Sure seems like Russia, Sweden, Finland the rest of the Euro hockey nations care. I would say only the general population of the USA doesn't care. They send their best Jrs, and that's what counts.

Again, hold the WHC at a time that doesnt conflict with the playoffs and you will see people start to care. But when you are going head to head with the most important hockey on the planet, you cannot win.
The players want to show themselves for NHL scouts, if there were no scouts/scouting done at the juniors, I doubt they'd show up. It's basically a "Hey look at me, I'm great, draft me!" tournament.

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12-07-2012, 10:15 AM
  #438
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
The players want to show themselves for NHL scouts, if there were no scouts/scouting done at the juniors, I doubt they'd show up. It's basically a "Hey look at me, I'm great, draft me!" tournament.
But they do show up, and that's the point. Doesn't matter why they are there, the point is the best of the best are there, they could be coming for free Tim Bits, it really doesn't matter.

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12-07-2012, 10:18 AM
  #439
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
But they do show up, and that's the point. Doesn't matter why they are there, the point is the best of the best are there, they could be coming for free Tim Bits, it really doesn't matter.
What do you mean then by "WHC is beloved in Europe"? Other than last year (it was played in Sweden and Finland, and possibly this year, played in Sweden and Finland again), all countries but Russia gets about as many stars. Maybe USA gets fewer, because that horrible play that makes them have to qualify to continue play in the 1st division WCH can not have many stars.

It's seen as a B-tournament in Sweden too, we could not even sell out our own games.

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12-07-2012, 10:27 AM
  #440
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
What do you mean then by "WHC is beloved in Europe"? Other than last year (it was played in Sweden and Finland, and possibly this year, played in Sweden and Finland again), all countries but Russia gets about as many stars. Maybe USA gets fewer, because that horrible play that makes them have to qualify to continue play in the 1st division WCH can not have many stars.

It's seen as a B-tournament in Sweden too, we could not even sell out our own games.
To me "prestige" means whether or not it is a best on best tournament. Regardless of the fan-fare in the different countries... what counts is whether its true "championship" with the best players available.

The Olympics is this. Every 4 years, all leagues halt their play so that their players may participate in the tournament. You get a true representation of the best players in each country head to head.

The World Juniors is this. Any top junior aged player is available (barring them playing in the NHL which is extremely rare) and each country sends a contingent of their best players Under 20 years old. A true best on best tournament.

The World Championships are NOT. Various leagues do not allow players to leave for the world championship. The NHL where I believe it is fair to say contains the top players from each country does not let its players leave the playoffs to play in it. Also being at the end of the season instead of the middle like the Olympics, many players are not at their top level of conditioning and are to worn/injured to want to jeopardize their careers for a tournament where they won't be facing the best. The team's are compiled of elite level profesionals, yes, but it isn't a true representation of the best each country has to offer... Not only for the North American teams, but for the europeans and russia as well.

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12-07-2012, 10:28 AM
  #441
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
What do you mean then by "WHC is beloved in Europe"? Other than last year (it was played in Sweden and Finland, and possibly this year, played in Sweden and Finland again), all countries but Russia gets about as many stars. Maybe USA gets fewer, because that horrible play that makes them have to qualify to continue play in the 1st division WCH can not have many stars.

It's seen as a B-tournament in Sweden too, we could not even sell out our own games.
From what we see here the WHC is a HUGE thing in Russia and popular in Euro hockey nations, where in Canada and USA pretty much no one cares. Not out of spite or anything like that, but the best hockey is being played in the NHL playoffs and our top players aren't in the WHC.

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12-07-2012, 10:32 AM
  #442
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
From what we see here the WHC is a HUGE thing in Russia and popular in Euro hockey nations, where in Canada and USA pretty much no one cares. Not out of spite or anything like that, but the best hockey is being played in the NHL playoffs and our top players aren't in the WHC.
1: you see wrong then, glad to have explained that to you so you no longer need to think the WHC is huge in all european hockey countries. I think the fact that a swedish training game in Football (during the WHC) had higher ratings than home WCH, and that we barely sold half the arenas for other than top teams shows how "big" the WHC is in Sweden as an example.

2: So it's the same for everyone?

I am not saying with any of my posts that Russia is number 1, what I've been saying is USA is not number 2, which some posters have claimed.


Last edited by Jonimaus: 12-07-2012 at 10:37 AM.
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12-07-2012, 10:33 AM
  #443
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The World Juniors is this. Any top junior aged player is available (barring them playing in the NHL which is extremely rare) and each country sends a contingent of their best players Under 20 years old. A true best on best tournament.
It's not "best on best" because of the age restriction. It's an artificial and arbitrary constraint on the demonstration of a country's hockey skills, and affects smaller countries disproportionately.

There is only one and it's the Olympics.

The WHC and the World Cup/Canada Cups cancel each other out.

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12-07-2012, 10:33 AM
  #444
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Considering both junior and senior level.

With the recent success at the junior hockey (winning couple super series, winning gold and silver at WJHC) plus being constantly successful at senior tourneys for the last 5 years(mostly WHC, Olympics was failed), can we say that at this point Russia is the #1 nation in hockey?

No troll thread, just an opinion.
IMO. Russia is still not number one. The last Olympics they didn't even get a medal. The super series is Russia vs various jr leagues in Canada so that is not a fair assessment. Maybe If it was Russia's jrs vs all of Canada's jrs. Also in recent wjc Canada top talent couldn't participate because they were already playing in the NHL. I love the way Russians play but I still say the Canadians have their number. If their was an NHL season this year though maybe Russia's jr team wouldn't be as strong. To me it looks like a few of them would have cracked their NHL team rosters.

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12-07-2012, 10:40 AM
  #445
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
It's not "best on best" because of the age restriction. It's an artificial and arbitrary constraint on the demonstration of a country's hockey skills, and affects smaller countries disproportionately.

There is only one and it's the Olympics.

The WHC and the World Cup/Canada Cups cancel each other out.
It is "best on best". Not of the whole countries population, but of the junior age players.

Its the best "junior age" players, the ones who have not reached the peak of their professional careers, like reaching the NHL, and in many cases the top level pro leagues in their respective countries. Pretty much every country has a U-20 program where the best junior aged players play. Its a showcase of the countries' best young hockey players.

So yes, it is best on best. The best junior aged players vs. the best junior aged players.

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12-07-2012, 10:47 AM
  #446
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
1: you see wrong then, glad to have explained that to you so you no longer need to think the WHC is huge in all european hockey countries. I think the fact that a swedish training game in Football (during the WHC) had higher ratings than home WCH, and that we barely sold half the arenas for other than top teams shows how "big" the WHC is in Sweden as an example.

2: So it's the same for everyone?

I am not saying with any of my posts that Russia is number 1, what I've been saying is USA is not number 2, which some posters have claimed.
So from this I take it the WHC is even less important than I originally thought?

I disagree, I still think the USA is number 2 with Sweden and Russia in a 3/4 split. I feel the USA is more well rounded than Russia and it shows in their consistency.

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12-07-2012, 10:48 AM
  #447
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It is "best on best". Not of the whole countries population, but of the junior age players.

Its the best "junior age" players, the ones who have not reached the peak of their professional careers, like reaching the NHL, and in many cases the top level pro leagues in their respective countries. Pretty much every country has a U-20 program where the best junior aged players play. Its a showcase of the countries' best young hockey players.

So yes, it is best on best. The best junior aged players vs. the best junior aged players.
You can call it that if you like, but it shouldn't have any impact on an overall judgement of a team's world ranking.

The pool of players is artificially constrained within a specific range.

Given that a team is only comprised of ~18 players, the smaller countries are able to field competitive teams when the full range of adult-aged players is allowed.

As it is, smaller countries, like Finland, or the Czech Republic, or Slovakia, are generally much more inconsistent at the WJCs because of the impact of that constraint on available players is magnified by the smaller pool of players to draw from.

It doesn't reward overall national skill level as much as national hockey depth.

Which is why you typically see one of the four largest countries win the gold every year.


Last edited by NyQuil: 12-07-2012 at 10:54 AM.
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12-07-2012, 10:51 AM
  #448
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
So from this I take it the WHC is even less important than I originally thought?

I disagree, I still think the USA is number 2 with Sweden and Russia in a 3/4 split. I feel the USA is more well rounded than Russia and it shows in their consistency.
A b-tournament featuring "as many stars that wants and can show up", has it ever been viewed any other way?

USA got 2nd in the olympics played in USA and 2nd in the olympics played in Canada. Before and after that they were 6th and 8th. If they get a good finish in Russia, then let's talk.

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12-07-2012, 10:55 AM
  #449
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Nobody outside of Canada gives a **** about Junior championship, but somehow, since Canada cares, it has high prestige? Until 2 years ago in Sweden we barely knew the tournament was being played.
High prestige games are anyone in which a nation sends the majority of their best, so WJC or Olympics. WC on the other is missing players from every nation, usually the best from each so it isn't really a fair comparison. Canada sent a 17 year old last time, that should prove how little merit the tournament has

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12-07-2012, 10:57 AM
  #450
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The WJC is popular in Canada because of TSN, that historical streak of 5 gold medals in the 90s that aligned with the ramping up of TSN's massive coverage, and the transformation of the tournament into a holiday tradition of sorts.

Let's not pretend that it's always been important.

No one knew anything about it before the early 90s, aside from the real hockey egg-heads and scouts.

The fact that it's held in North America quite often, does not really conflict much with the NHL schedule, and is easy prime-time ratings for the broadcaster, has helped drive its popularity.

It's gained some prestige in Europe, particularly when their teams win, and given the attention that Canada has placed on it, but it will never be the same as it is over here.

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