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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VIIII: "We're Close" "We're Not Close" Edition

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:28 AM
  #201
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Stay home. From: @NYDNRangers
Sent: Dec 7, 2012 11:26a

RT @JoshYohe_Trib: Crosby likely won't go back to NYC for more negotiations. Said trust is essentially gone.

sent via TweetDeck
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/NYDNRangers/statu...86641414369281

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:32 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Stay home. From: @NYDNRangers
Sent: Dec 7, 2012 11:26a

RT @JoshYohe_Trib: Crosby likely won't go back to NYC for more negotiations. Said trust is essentially gone.

sent via TweetDeck
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/NYDNRangers/statu...86641414369281
I think chances of a season are gone.

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:35 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Stay home. From: @NYDNRangers
Sent: Dec 7, 2012 11:26a

RT @JoshYohe_Trib: Crosby likely won't go back to NYC for more negotiations. Said trust is essentially gone.

sent via TweetDeck
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/NYDNRangers/statu...86641414369281
Article headline next week:
"Crosby saves the lockout as he exhibits self-control and stays out of meetings; allows for deal to he finalized"

Sorry couldn't resist

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:35 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Stay home. From: @NYDNRangers
Sent: Dec 7, 2012 11:26a

RT @JoshYohe_Trib: Crosby likely won't go back to NYC for more negotiations. Said trust is essentially gone.

sent via TweetDeck
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/NYDNRangers/statu...86641414369281
"A captain and a leader"

Its cool, Sid. Go home and kick your feet up in that mansion. Im sure your 3rd and 4th liners don't mind

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:47 AM
  #205
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To change the topic a bit.....

I am so tired of the hatred towards Crosby. Maybe it is because my son-in-law is a Pens fan and I can take the hate glasses off and see him from the other side. He is a fierce and passionate competitor who will do anything to win. If he were a NYR, we'd love him. The things he does to irritate us, we would forgive and applaud. We accepted Ulf Samuelson, Sean Avery, Matthew Barnaby, and other players who were among the most hated players in the league and hated by us until they got here.

He takes his role as the best player and the spokesperson for the game and symbol of hockey seriously. Everything he did over the last few weeks was done with the best intentions. Sure he wants to get back on the ice and earn his big bucks (who wouldn't?) and that was of course part of his motivation, but he thought he could have a positive impact for the good of the game.

Give the guy a break. He was acting with the best of intentions.

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:50 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
To change the topic a bit.....

I am so tired of the hatred towards Crosby. Maybe it is because my son-in-law is a Pens fan and I can take the hate glasses off and see him from the other side. He is a fierce and passionate competitor who will do anything to win. If he were a NYR, we'd love him. The things he does to irritate us, we would forgive and applaud. We accepted Ulf Samuelson, Sean Avery, Matthew Barnaby, and other players who were among the most hated players in the league and hated by us until they got here.

He takes his role as the best player and the spokesperson for the game and symbol of hockey seriously. Everything he did over the last few weeks was done with the best intentions. Sure he wants to get back on the ice and earn his big bucks (who wouldn't?) and that was of course part of his motivation, but he thought he could have a positive impact for the good of the game.

Give the guy a break. He was acting with the best of intentions.
I agree to an extent.

But hes been entitled since the moment he stepped on an NHL rink, and hes acted like it. Thats why so many people hate him.

What sets him apart from the other guys you mentioned is that they never incessantly whined. And while Crosby has gotten better on the front, he still does it, because he can.

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:51 AM
  #207
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The major problem is that every issue is seemingly dealt with in a vacuum and is absolute.

There doesnt seem to be any "OK, we offered 300M for make-whole, if you want to move the contract limits up to 8 years, that means $50M is coming out of the make-whole fund"

Instead its "OK, make-whole is done - next step contract term limits. What? you want 8 years instead of 5? Well, that make-whole thing is completely off the table now"

The scary thing is Bettman wasnt even the room, but his negotiating tactics, if you can even call them that, seems to have permeated throughout.
While I agree with this as a major issue, it seems to me that the feedback from the owners last night was that the entire reason that they were furious is that the moderate owners THOUGHT they had come in and given a reasonable give-and-take proposal. Piecing it together this is how it seemed to go down, based on reports:

- The moderate group, either in the meeting before hand in Boston or at the table earlier this week, hashed out a proposal that made tradeoffs that they thought would be acceptable based on what the players had indicated were their must-haves earlier in the process:

- "Okay, we'll give you $100MM more in make-whole; we'll abandon our ask on UFA; we'll abandon our ask on arb rights. In exchange, we want a ten year deal and the contract limits we've laid out."

- They thought this was fair and that it was a proposal that the players should accept. The players then apparently raised the issue of pensions for the first time after not indicating that it was one of their must-haves at any previous point in the process. This infuriated the owners, but after every a cooling down period, they got back together and hammered out something that made the players happy on pensions. Another give to the players.

- Then, the owners said, "okay, so we've got a deal now right?"

- And the players came back and said "well thank you for everything that you just gave us. We'll take those. Now about the term limits, variances and CBA term...."

It seems to me that in this case it's Fehr that did exactly what you're laying at the feet of Bettman. And then added fuel to the fire by puffing up his chest and laying it all in front of the media.



Regardless, they are so close now that I do agree it'll be asinine on both sides if they can't bridge the remaining gap to get to a compromise. Given that Fehr's tactic (which has been successful, mind you) has been to simply wait out the league and wait for the next give over and over, I would really, really hope that this time the PA goes back and makes the offer to re-engage with some sort of olive branch. Perhaps offering to accept the 10 year CBA would be a good one, since I think it's really in everyone's best interest. Then, they may grudgingly get the league to compromise on the contracting issues.

I fear that given how this has played out to date, the owners feel like they've given enough and even the moderates are now thinking "**** you Fehr, I'm willing to die on this hill - because I've retreated from all the others and I'm done with that. No more. Your ****ing turn."

That's my fear anyway.

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:51 AM
  #208
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Donald Fehr is not helping this process. Clearly he cares only about getting as much as he can, even if it means no season.

Players and owners - THE ACTUAL HOCKEY LOVERS IN THIS EQUATION WERE SO CLOSE..

This aint baseball bro... you're not going to win. The players will have to concede that they ontop of getting MILLIONS to play a game they love, they will have to give in some to the owners.

The players never win in these negotiations. They suck at business and the owners are for the most part Billionaire deal makers who own these teams because it's amusing to them.

The statements from the owners post talks says it all. These guys are not evil. They were giving up tons to get this season going, they had a good, fair negotiation with the players.

Fehr is a greedy non hockey fan, and unfortunately it now looks like there will be no 2013 season.

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:52 AM
  #209
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and the longer this goes on the worse it gets for the players. The owners wont flip over the summer. They will just wait until the players mutiny and fire Fehr... watch

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:52 AM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
To change the topic a bit.....

I am so tired of the hatred towards Crosby. Maybe it is because my son-in-law is a Pens fan and I can take the hate glasses off and see him from the other side. He is a fierce and passionate competitor who will do anything to win. If he were a NYR, we'd love him. The things he does to irritate us, we would forgive and applaud. We accepted Ulf Samuelson, Sean Avery, Matthew Barnaby, and other players who were among the most hated players in the league and hated by us until they got here.

He takes his role as the best player and the spokesperson for the game and symbol of hockey seriously. Everything he did over the last few weeks was done with the best intentions. Sure he wants to get back on the ice and earn his big bucks (who wouldn't?) and that was of course part of his motivation, but he thought he could have a positive impact for the good of the game.

Give the guy a break. He was acting with the best of intentions.
Sorry, I don't applaud the crybaby attitude as if he is owed everything and can do no wrong. Part of that is definitely Bettman and the NHL's fault for provoking that attitude/mentality, but Crosby makes it so vividly clear on the ice. Not to mention the dives/embellishments of contact on him as well as the cheap shots he sneaks in when the refs aren't looking just like at the end of last year in that PIT/PHI game. Him and Malkin both do it.

No break from me here.

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:55 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by I Am Chariot View Post
and the longer this goes on the worse it gets for the players. The owners wont flip over the summer. They will just wait until the players mutiny and fire Fehr... watch
I'm beginning to feel this way. I mean how is it that there was such optimism with Fehr and Bettman out of the room and then it changed ever so quickly when the two rejoined? 18 players were in that players/owners meeting. It wasn't just 4 speaking for the other many that have been mostly involved throughout this process. 18 players. I blame both parties still, but I must say this has become about winning for Fehr. The game of hockey is meaningless at this point.

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:57 AM
  #212
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Sorry, I don't applaud the crybaby attitude as if he is owed everything and can do no wrong. Part of that is definitely Bettman and the NHL's fault for provoking that attitude/mentality, but Crosby makes it so vividly clear on the ice. Not to mention the dives/embellishments of contact on him as well as the cheap shots he sneaks in when the refs aren't looking just like at the end of last year in that PIT/PHI game. Him and Malkin both do it.

No break from me here.
Same. That slewfoot on Callahan was as clear as day, yet Callahan gets the only penalty. I hate Crosby equally as much as I hate the Penguins and their fans.

To sum those few sentences up, I could have just said "November 15, 2010."

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:59 AM
  #213
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This isn't a typical business model, so applying traditional role principles to this fight is pointless. On that same token, it's not a typical labor argument. I wouldn't say I'm pro-union or anti-union -- I believe fully in the fundamental principles, but I'm not entirely sure they're being applied correctly -- but I can't think of too many unionized work-forces outside of professional sports where the "laborers" can make upwards of $10M per year, while their fellow union members might make that over their entire career if they're lucky. In my humble opinion, that really throws a wrench into the gears.

So, my question becomes: How do you effectively negotiate a labor contract when there is such a huge conflict of interest? 80% of the league likely doesn't care about the "make whole" provision because what they'd earn back over time will likely never amount to what they've already lost. Whatever player Dater spoke to last night is right; It's very hard for a guy making $800k to sit out this long while "the Ryan Millers and Brad Richards of the world pretend this is a sacrifice for them." Brad Richards made more on July 1st when he got his signing-bonus than most of these players will see in a lifetime. I know if I was a minimum-salary player I'd have a hard time believing that those guys understand my sense of urgency to get a paycheck.
You are 100% correct.

There is no way it makes a lick of sense for the majority of players to keep fighting this.

This fight is about the players at the very top.

But hey, screw management and everything, go union! Stick it to those awful owners so the elite players can continue to bend over the small timers.

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:05 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
To change the topic a bit.....

I am so tired of the hatred towards Crosby. Maybe it is because my son-in-law is a Pens fan and I can take the hate glasses off and see him from the other side. He is a fierce and passionate competitor who will do anything to win. If he were a NYR, we'd love him. The things he does to irritate us, we would forgive and applaud. We accepted Ulf Samuelson, Sean Avery, Matthew Barnaby, and other players who were among the most hated players in the league and hated by us until they got here.

He takes his role as the best player and the spokesperson for the game and symbol of hockey seriously. Everything he did over the last few weeks was done with the best intentions. Sure he wants to get back on the ice and earn his big bucks (who wouldn't?) and that was of course part of his motivation, but he thought he could have a positive impact for the good of the game.

Give the guy a break. He was acting with the best of intentions.
Crosby could cure cancer and I'd still hate the little ****.

You can't ignore his hockey skills, the kid is a great player. But **** him and his bull**** on ice antics. He's a dirty player who gets calls in his favor without question. Other posters have already cited numerous instances so I won't list any more since it's just going to beat a dead horse.

I wish he would just shut his mouth and play the ****ing game.

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12-07-2012, 11:06 AM
  #215
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You are 100% correct.

There is no way it makes a lick of sense for the majority of players to keep fighting this.

This fight is about the players at the very top.

But hey, screw management and everything, go union! Stick it to those awful owners so the elite players can continue to bend over the small timers.

It's not even a union. Half the best players are playing hockey in another league right now.... lol. Thats not a union. That's a mess and the owners know it.

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12-07-2012, 11:08 AM
  #216
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if there's a limit on the amount a contract can fluctuate year-to-year it would seem that would eliminate the crazy super-long-term ones. i don't see why the owners are so adament. i also think limiting contract length is a bit unfair. particularly limiting them to five years. i can see why the players wouldnt go for that. is the league that poor? anyhow, i don't much care either way. it's crazy money to begin-with.

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12-07-2012, 11:09 AM
  #217
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So what you guys are saying is that you hate Sidney Crosby because he acts like Mark Messier.

Awesome.

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12-07-2012, 11:13 AM
  #218
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Pretty funny
Hahaha
hysterical....had to share this on fb lol.

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12-07-2012, 11:16 AM
  #219
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Lundqvist in a Swedish radio interview said it's embarrassing that a deal isn't done yet considering how close the sides are and that both parties are to blame for a deal isn't done.
Posted on main board.

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12-07-2012, 11:16 AM
  #220
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While I agree with this as a major issue, it seems to me that the feedback from the owners last night was that the entire reason that they were furious is that the moderate owners THOUGHT they had come in and given a reasonable give-and-take proposal. Piecing it together this is how it seemed to go down, based on reports:

- The moderate group, either in the meeting before hand in Boston or at the table earlier this week, hashed out a proposal that made tradeoffs that they thought would be acceptable based on what the players had indicated were their must-haves earlier in the process:

- "Okay, we'll give you $100MM more in make-whole; we'll abandon our ask on UFA; we'll abandon our ask on arb rights. In exchange, we want a ten year deal and the contract limits we've laid out."

- They thought this was fair and that it was a proposal that the players should accept. The players then apparently raised the issue of pensions for the first time after not indicating that it was one of their must-haves at any previous point in the process. This infuriated the owners, but after every a cooling down period, they got back together and hammered out something that made the players happy on pensions. Another give to the players.

- Then, the owners said, "okay, so we've got a deal now right?"

- And the players came back and said "well thank you for everything that you just gave us. We'll take those. Now about the term limits, variances and CBA term...."

It seems to me that in this case it's Fehr that did exactly what you're laying at the feet of Bettman. And then added fuel to the fire by puffing up his chest and laying it all in front of the media.



Regardless, they are so close now that I do agree it'll be asinine on both sides if they can't bridge the remaining gap to get to a compromise. Given that Fehr's tactic (which has been successful, mind you) has been to simply wait out the league and wait for the next give over and over, I would really, really hope that this time the PA goes back and makes the offer to re-engage with some sort of olive branch. Perhaps offering to accept the 10 year CBA would be a good one, since I think it's really in everyone's best interest. Then, they may grudgingly get the league to compromise on the contracting issues.

I fear that given how this has played out to date, the owners feel like they've given enough and even the moderates are now thinking "**** you Fehr, I'm willing to die on this hill - because I've retreated from all the others and I'm done with that. No more. Your ****ing turn."

That's my fear anyway.
Fehr is a johnny-come-lately to the NHL landscape. Im sure he doesnt view this whole thing as the league offering concessions. For him, the baseline is the expired CBA. And when you look at it that way, the players are quite literally being presented the status quo on some issues as a best case scenario.

As for what you described, yea thats probably how it went down. But thats what you get when you line up a bunch of sharks against people who play hockey for a living. Fehr probably thinks he came in and saved the day for his beleaguered group of players.

Quite frankly, I dont know how or why the PA leadership agreed to type of meetings we saw this week in the first place.

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12-07-2012, 11:18 AM
  #221
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So what you guys are saying is that you hate Sidney Crosby because he acts like Mark Messier.

Awesome.
I must have missed the part where Messier was knighted as the golden boy of hockey as a teenager.

Crosby has been entitled from the beginning, and he acts like it.

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12-07-2012, 11:19 AM
  #222
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I must have missed the part where Messier was knighted as the golden boy of hockey as a teenager.

Crosby has been entitled from the beginning, and he acts like it.
Maybe not from the beginning in his Oilers years, but Messier as a Ranger acted exactly how everyone is upset that Crosby acts. The sense of entitlement was definitely there.

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12-07-2012, 11:20 AM
  #223
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So what you guys are saying is that you hate Sidney Crosby because he acts like Mark Messier.

Awesome.
Mark Messier is 50 years old and I bet he could still beat the crap out of Crosby.

No comparison.

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12-07-2012, 11:22 AM
  #224
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So what you guys are saying is that you hate Sidney Crosby because he acts like Mark Messier.

Awesome.
Dude...You said exactly what I was thinking.

The similarities are striking. Both took their shar of s--- on the ice (Go watch tape of seven game series against Caps a couple of years ago. Crosby took an absolute beating in the paint and still scored all his goals from about two feet away).

Both are ture leaders, and Yes both were (are) sneaky / dirty players.
Messier gave more butt ends and elbows away from the play than anyone in the league. I believe he was also suspended multiple times (in an era when nobody especially star players got suspended).

Both are great great players. I was lucky to have one on my team and only wish that those lousy ping pong balls fell in our favor after the last lockout.

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12-07-2012, 11:25 AM
  #225
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Maybe not from the beginning in his Oilers years, but Messier as a Ranger acted exactly how everyone is upset that Crosby acts. The sense of entitlement was definitely there.
And how has the sense of entitlement manifested itself in a negative way?
He works hard, says and does the right thing, and leads in the dressing room.

The comparison that comes to mind is Lebron James. He could beat adults when he was 12 years old and was on a pedestal from childhood yet is still the hardest working guy on the team.

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