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Lockout Thread: I told myself I wouldn't do this| Part IV

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:34 AM
  #976
indigobuffalo
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
You guys don't seem to comprehend it was a take it or leave it proposal. It wasn't open for negotiation. They wanted a yes or no. PA came back with a counter proposal and told the media they are close and no reason now that a agreement can't be imminent. Not sure where the english gets lost but apparently it has.
Because every NHL proposal so far has been take it or leave it, yes or no. The NHL has been very stoic about trying not to negotiate at all.
However, since they have used the ultimatum technique everytime they present an offer, yet then proceed to back-track and come back a few days later with a better, revised take it or leave it offer.
That seems to suggest, if you want to take the time to see the pattern emerging, that they basically are going to continue to cede ground so long as the PA keeps turning down the ultimatum offer and insisting on negoatiating.

I'm not sure how you've managed to miss the obvious, but apparently you did.

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12-07-2012, 10:35 AM
  #977
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
In October Fehr claimed the sides were far apart and rejected Bettman's best offer take it or leave it deal, as make whole was coming out of the PA portion.

Then in November when negotiating began again it was now suddenly coming out of the NHL HRR% cut, but wait not all existing contracts (of $451 mil outstanding) just $211 as their "best offer & final" take it or leave it offer.

In December we just witnessed make whole go to $300 mil and more and more player rights demands relinquished that they had previously demanded in prior take it or leave it proposals. Now finally Fehr and the PA agreed that on the money portion the two sides are in agreement with this becoming a 50/50 HRR% partnership once past contracts are honoured ($300 mil of $450 mil owing).

So now Bettman claims all previously offered things are once again off the table, yet we have seen time after time that "best and final" definition mean little when Bettman tosses out those words as his PR rhetoric, while still claiming he wants to play hockey this year. Well everyone is smart enough to realize if you start moving further apart rather than together on issues that divide the parties that strategy lacks common sense in hopes of completing a successful negotiation. He acts like a little kid and every time he doesn't get his way, he whines and then says he's taking his ball and going home and doesn't want to play/negotiate any more.

If he claims that his last offer was truly his best final offer, and it was rejected on his Yes or No demands, instead of negotiating on other matters, then he should cancel the season because we know that the answer was NO!! ..

So we have to wait until his next "best & final offer" to appear presents itself, when he is done pouting that he didn't get his way this time. The entire hockey world particularly Fehr and PA can recognize that each time Bettman comes crawling back the CBA improves for the PA, in terms of LESS claw-back demands by the Owners which all began with outrages demands to start, and slowly but surely (but painfully) change with each Final Offer by the NHL.
It would of cost the NHLPA $531,052,068.42 (from all of the players) in lost wages to get the $90,000,000 added on for some of the players. Now, some of that 1/2 billion in lost wages also bought some other contractual demands for the players but I don't think the players who have lost the money will ever make it back when they sign.

These negotiations have passed the point where the players will ever make back the money they lost by not signing in October. To sign the contract in October was the best thing, monetarily, the current players could have done for themselves and therefore was the best deal for them.

The professional negotiator must realize when the best offer is on the table and when they have taken it too far. The NHL will present another offer and it may include some of the contractual concessions the players want but how much is it going to cost, real dollar wise, each current player.

As far as Bettman acting like a little kid...you may have a point but Fehr has really been ridiculous as well. His stalling tactics and constantly being late for meetings is both disrespectful and amateurish. When I say disrespectful I mean to the owners, other negotiators and even to the fans. Last nights press conference left me truly angry at his use of the fans emotions in this process.

Both parties need to stop worrying about the PR game and get the game itself going.

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12-07-2012, 10:35 AM
  #978
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
That's the way the offer was presented. That is why the owners went home. They asked for a yes or no, not a counter offer. They went public telling the world they just offered a proposal that should see this thing come to an end. NHL countered with their rant because PA went public.
Considering all of Bettmans offers have been take it or leave it, we both know that isnt the case.

PA was being realistic when they went public, a deal should be imminent, if the sides have this as the difference another couple 12 hour days of negotiaiting would have convinced one another what they both really want and we would have gotten a deal settled (Fehr said the PA wants a shorter CBA so new players can vote, which is fair, owners want short contracts, which is also fair,). Instead Bettman said what he did to try and get players to crack and fans to turn on the PA.

Its just stupidity now.

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12-07-2012, 10:40 AM
  #979
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Originally Posted by Morguee View Post
It would of cost the NHLPA $531,052,068.42 (from all of the players) in lost wages to get the $90,000,000 added on for some of the players. Now, some of that 1/2 billion in lost wages also bought some other contractual demands for the players but I don't think the players who have lost the money will ever make it back when they sign.

These negotiations have passed the point where the players will ever make back the money they lost by not signing in October. To sign the contract in October was the best thing, monetarily, the current players could have done for themselves and therefore was the best deal for them.

The professional negotiator must realize when the best offer is on the table and when they have taken it too far. The NHL will present another offer and it may include some of the contractual concessions the players want but how much is it going to cost, real dollar wise, each current player.

As far as Bettman acting like a little kid...you may have a point but Fehr has really been ridiculous as well. His stalling tactics and constantly being late for meetings is both disrespectful and amateurish. When I say disrespectful I mean to the owners, other negotiators and even to the fans. Last nights press conference left me truly angry at his use of the fans emotions in this process.

Both parties need to stop worrying about the PR game and get the game itself going.
I'm not sure how many think the players don't know the money that is gone is gone.

Some players who went through the previous Bettman lock-out have come out on both sides after the fact. I've heard some say they'd do it again and others say they should have signed. Many did it for the players coming next like previous players who fought this recurring CBA battle, right back to the first union.

Players know they are making a sacrifice.

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12-07-2012, 10:44 AM
  #980
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Originally Posted by indigobuffalo View Post
Because every NHL proposal so far has been take it or leave it, yes or no. The NHL has been very stoic about trying not to negotiate at all.
However, since they have used the ultimatum technique everytime they present an offer, yet then proceed to back-track and come back a few days later with a better, revised take it or leave it offer.
That seems to suggest, if you want to take the time to see the pattern emerging, that they basically are going to continue to cede ground so long as the PA keeps turning down the ultimatum offer and insisting on negoatiating.

I'm not sure how you've managed to miss the obvious, but apparently you did.
I haven't missed the obvious. This was a players-owners meeting to bridge the gap. Moderates were brought in by players request. NHL never put a stipulation on amount of players and who they were. Moderates offered more money on make whole out of good faith while other owners wanted it taken off the table. They asked for a yes or no. After the morning the owners left and meeting was continued to pushed back. That is why only Daly and Batterman showed up, they were looking for a yes or no not a counter.

PA goes ahead and says we have belief we can have an agreement soon just after they made there counter when NHL was looking for a yes or no. NHL didn't make an announcement last night that they believed a resolution was imminent. It infuriated the Bettman and the owners and that is why we saw that #### show on tv last night.

It was a childish game.

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12-07-2012, 10:44 AM
  #981
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Man. I dont know what these sides are trying to do. The money is split, now their just trying to see who can 'win' the deal.

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12-07-2012, 10:50 AM
  #982
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Originally Posted by Jozay View Post
Man. I dont know what these sides are trying to do. The money is split, now their just trying to see who can 'win' the deal.
I'm not sure the money is split. I think they are farther apart. They added more money for a longer term of CBA, five year contract length, 7 for your own player and no more than 5% variation on contract. I figure they have a month to figure it out because after that it is too late. Not sure how many dollars they will loose from sponsors and never get it back. Players will never recoup lost salary, they have a short career.

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12-07-2012, 10:51 AM
  #983
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I'm not sure how many think the players don't know the money that is gone is gone.

Some players who went through the previous Bettman lock-out have come out on both sides after the fact. I've heard some say they'd do it again and others say they should have signed. Many did it for the players coming next like previous players who fought this recurring CBA battle, right back to the first union.

Players know they are making a sacrifice.
I'm sure Ted Lindsay and Doug Harvey would be proud that they are fighting the good fight. Things have changed a lot, this isn't even the Alan Eagleson era. If I am a player I would be asking myself is it worth me losing millions of dollars so a kid can sign a 7 year contract which varies by 75% from year one to year 7 instead of a 5 year one with little variation. Is it worth me losing millions so I can do this again in 8 years rather than 10. The pendulum has swung in the last 30 years to the point where these sacrifices aren't needed.

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12-07-2012, 10:52 AM
  #984
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Oh well at least we have the World Juniors starting soon, some hockey to watch, yay.

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12-07-2012, 10:56 AM
  #985
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
I believe when you look at it they did give there best offer in Oct. It was the players best chance at making there whole values. It was these four owners who decided to throw a little more money at it with the catch that it becomes a ten year deal. So in fact, it was more money now for a longer deal. You can argue that is a better deal or you can say it was give more to get more.

I will be honest. The more this drags on the more fans will side with the owners. What happened last night is just the start of what fans will see who Fehr really is. Even cattle know when to come in when there is a storm, players are sitting there in the middle of it too oblivious to see what is happening around them. The game will never be the same.
I would disagree. It seems that a large number of people started off in the NHL camp, because of the large stream of misinformation the NHL fed through the media on the initial offers, when everyone's interest was still sharply focused on the proceedings.

As things drag on, it is becoming more, and more clear that the NHL is the one draggin their feet in the mud, and using awful negotiation tactics. Fehr has a great track record. The MLB and MLBPA haven't had any labour disputes once Fehr took over. MLB is a profitable organization, despite having some of the highest payrolls in pro-sports.

Fehr is being extremely consistent. He is doing the same thing in the NHLPA he did with the MLBPA. And he's seeing consistent success, as the NHL back-peddles faster and faster as time goes on.

At this point, dissention is growing within the owners' ranks, and not so within the NHLPA, at least not in the same degree (one or two NHLPA members out of several hundred compared to 5 or more owners out of 30).

The most important thing to note, with these negotiations, is that the NHLPA WANTS to play hockey. They are NOT on strike, they are not picketing, they are not motivated by money (AS YOU CLEARLY POINTED OUT YOURSELF, THEY ARE LOSING IT WITH EACH MISSED GAME), they have said repeatedly, they just want to play hockey.

I'm seeing more and more people coming over to the NHLPA's side, as the NHL continues to show, after each passing day, their unwillingness to negotiate and make a deal that is fair to both sides.

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12-07-2012, 10:57 AM
  #986
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Originally Posted by Morguee View Post
I'm sure Ted Lindsay and Doug Harvey would be proud that they are fighting the good fight. Things have changed a lot, this isn't even the Alan Eagleson era. If I am a player I would be asking myself is it worth me losing millions of dollars so a kid can sign a 7 year contract which varies by 75% from year one to year 7 instead of a 5 year one with little variation. Is it worth me losing millions so I can do this again in 8 years rather than 10. The pendulum has swung in the last 30 years to the point where these sacrifices aren't needed.
Exactly.

People. We have seen how many lockouts in the last number of years? Time to break the mold, enough of the five year deals because fans deserve better, the game deserves better. Don't tell me players have been treated well over the last decade. With an average salary of 2.4million, min of 575k they are paid handsomely. People think these ten year + deals are ok for the game. Look what they have done to NYI and others. You do that for 20 years with a bunch of players and a franchise goes into the sewer. This is crazy now. 5 Year term and 7 for your own player is more than generous. We have a management team that shies away from this but in Leaf land if we wanted we could have had all these players. It's all about money and eventually the money comes from the fans.

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12-07-2012, 10:58 AM
  #987
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Originally Posted by indigobuffalo View Post
I would disagree. It seems that a large number of people started off in the NHL camp, because of the large stream of misinformation the NHL fed through the media on the initial offers, when everyone's interest was still sharply focused on the proceedings.

As things drag on, it is becoming more, and more clear that the NHL is the one draggin their feet in the mud, and using awful negotiation tactics. Fehr has a great track record. The MLB and MLBPA haven't had any labour disputes once Fehr took over. MLB is a profitable organization, despite having some of the highest payrolls in pro-sports.

Fehr is being extremely consistent. He is doing the same thing in the NHLPA he did with the MLBPA. And he's seeing consistent success, as the NHL back-peddles faster and faster as time goes on.

At this point, dissention is growing within the owners' ranks, and not so within the NHLPA, at least not in the same degree (one or two NHLPA members out of several hundred compared to 5 or more owners out of 30).

The most important thing to note, with these negotiations, is that the NHLPA WANTS to play hockey. They are NOT on strike, they are not picketing, they are not motivated by money (AS YOU CLEARLY POINTED OUT YOURSELF, THEY ARE LOSING IT WITH EACH MISSED GAME), they have said repeatedly, they just want to play hockey.

I'm seeing more and more people coming over to the NHLPA's side, as the NHL continues to show, after each passing day, their unwillingness to negotiate and make a deal that is fair to both sides.
I stopped reading there. You have zero credibility now.

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12-07-2012, 11:05 AM
  #988
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Originally Posted by Morguee View Post
I'm sure Ted Lindsay and Doug Harvey would be proud that they are fighting the good fight. Things have changed a lot, this isn't even the Alan Eagleson era. If I am a player I would be asking myself is it worth me losing millions of dollars so a kid can sign a 7 year contract which varies by 75% from year one to year 7 instead of a 5 year one with little variation. Is it worth me losing millions so I can do this again in 8 years rather than 10. The pendulum has swung in the last 30 years to the point where these sacrifices aren't needed.
There's more to this than that. It's also about creating a lasting agreement.

The NHL clearly won the last CBA. They got exactly what they wanted. Yet here they come again, next CBA, demanding even more. They have clearly shown their position. They'll take, take, take and take some more. If the NHLPA caves here, with the noblest of intentions being to preserve a season and to accept the NHL's offer in-good-faith, the NHL will just come around again the next time and demand even more.

This is not just some arbitrary display of showmanship. The NHL has to be shown that the rights of players will not be infringed upon with impunity.

The NHL is trying to make the fans think that the NHLPA's stance is confrontational and unfriendly, yet it is the opposite that is true.

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12-07-2012, 11:47 AM
  #989
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theyre too close now
it should get done next week

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sorry guys

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12-07-2012, 12:11 PM
  #990
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Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
theyre too close now
it should get done next week

1000 posts
sorry guys
Thread is at its maximum new thread is up to continue the debate.

/closed

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