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Eller to play in Europe (signs with Jyväskylä JYP)

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Old
12-06-2012, 08:17 PM
  #276
DAChampion
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I was wondering about this; I mean it's not fair to ask a veteran like Plekanec to switch positions but I feel like he'd be able to do it.
Fairness is irrelevant. If the line can produce well and be a + line and can contribute to a playoff run then Plekanec can agree to play like a big man out there

Question for any faceoff experts:

Should face-off success not increase if there are two centers on a line? If the first center gets booted out of the faceoff circle, he knows that his backup has a 50% success rate, so he will be more agressive on his "second serve", true or false?

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12-06-2012, 08:30 PM
  #277
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You're posting revisionist history.

The truth is that in the period 2002-2003 to 2008-09 Koivu played at a 68 point per 82 game pace (369 points in 445 games) and Habs fans constantly complained that our biggest weakness was the lack of a 1st line center with size. Now that we have a smaller 1st line center, who produces less, in spite of being in a better situation, people are satisfied (!!!).

He did this playing with Higgins and Ryder at best, both of whom are independently offensively inferior to both Pacioretty and Cole, though you could legitimately argue Higgins is a better two-way player. He was frequently playing with worse. However, Pacioretty and Cole are 1st line wingers on the majority of teams in the league. Higgins and Ryder are not.

Cole did have a career year last year. That happens sometimes. Pacioretty? He scored 14 goals in 37 games the year before, so the same offensive pace as this year, playing with Gomez and Gionta. The reason "nobody would have penned him as a 1st liner" is because we didn't expect him to recover from the Chara hit so quickly. I figured he would play badly like a lot of post-concussion players do. However Pacioretty had been considered a future 1st liner by most of the fanbase and habs brass for years.

*******************************

I look forward to seeing what Eller can do with good wingers and PP time.

If we want to get creative on this, the closest comparable offensive season in Habs recent history to the one Desharnais just had is Scott Gomez circa 09-10


Total Scoring:
Gomez: 12 goals, 59 points in 78 games
Desharnais: 16 goals, 60 points in 81 games.

Virtually identical ppg although Desharnais has more goals. But both were getting most of their offense through assists.


ES/PP Scoring

Gomez: 40/19
Desharnais: 40/20

Same ratio of even strength to power play scoring a fairly normal 2/3rds, 1/3rds split.

Desharnais ranks 27th in the league for point per games at center, Gomez ranked 30th (excluding players with under 10 games).

Essentially identical years. Except Desharnais gets outscored by his linemates on ES by a fair margin while Gomez kept pace with his while Desharnais had the advantage of better goal scoring.

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12-06-2012, 08:32 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
If we want to get creative on this, the closest comparable offensive season in Habs recent history to the one Desharnais just had is Scott Gomez circa 09-10


Total Scoring:
Gomez: 12 goals, 59 points in 78 games
Desharnais: 16 goals, 60 points in 81 games.

Virtually identical ppg although Desharnais has more goals. But both were getting most of their offense through assists.


ES/PP Scoring

Gomez: 40/19
Desharnais: 40/20

Same ratio of even strength to power play scoring a fairly normal 2/3rds, 1/3rds split.

Desharnais ranks 27th in the league for point per games at center, Gomez ranked 30th (excluding players with under 10 games).

Essentially identical years. Except Desharnais gets outscored by his linemates on ES by a fair margin while Gomez kept pace with his while Desharnais had the advantage of better goal scoring.
I knew that Desharnais had replaced Gomez but I had no idea how perfect the fit was !

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12-06-2012, 09:02 PM
  #279
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A lot of good posts being made here, but it's the Eller thread. Bring the discussion back around to being on topic or posts start getting deleted.

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12-07-2012, 01:01 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
It's all speculation is what I'm saying. If you honestly think eller in the same situation would produce more, then I'd have to disagree and leave it at that. I think people underestimate how good of an offensive player DD is, and are quick to toss him aside because it'd be so easy since he's tiny.

That being said, Eller still has room to grow, but I doubt he can ever reach 60 points (even with apparently GOD-like wingers like Patches and Cole)... Would love to see it though, he'd be one hell of a player (he already is).
Well, I already explained in the last post that I don't think Eller should be paired with both MaxPac and Cole. One would be better, with another that would compliment these two.
That aside, I'm still waiting to hear why you have doubts Eller could ever reach 60pts.
He definitely shown very good offensive potential. So, not sure why 60pts is so far fetched.

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12-07-2012, 01:02 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I was wondering about this; I mean it's not fair to ask a veteran like Plekanec to switch positions but I feel like he'd be able to do it.
Well, he was switched from 1st PP unit center to point man, a position he's never played before. He didn't seem to bicker about it.

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12-07-2012, 09:55 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Eller has a better shot, better hands, protects the puck better and the difference in vision and playmaking isn't as big as you think. Desharnais just gauges his time with the puck than Eller at this point.

I'm happy having both. Desharnais will eventually move to the wing.

Galchenyuk-Plekanec-Eller down the middle with Patches, Gionta, Cole and Desharnais on the wings, throw in development from guys like Gallagher and Collberg.
Coaching staff/management if someone needs to be moved to wing, it will be Eller not DD.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...943/story.html
I
love both players, but out of Eller, Plek and DD, Eller would be the most effective at wing. He has been used at wing before, as recent as the World championship this summer with the National team. I think we can all agree that Eller is a better centre than a winger, but the gap isn't it would be if DD or Plek moved to wing.

Personally I think someone is going to be moved, out of DD/Plek/Eller, but no need to rush the decision until Gally is ready to play centre, who I picture starting his NHL career at LW.

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12-07-2012, 10:35 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
Coaching staff/management if someone needs to be moved to wing, it will be Eller not DD.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...943/story.html
I
love both players, but out of Eller, Plek and DD, Eller would be the most effective at wing. He has been used at wing before, as recent as the World championship this summer with the National team. I think we can all agree that Eller is a better centre than a winger, but the gap isn't it would be if DD or Plek moved to wing.

Personally I think someone is going to be moved, out of DD/Plek/Eller, but no need to rush the decision until Gally is ready to play centre, who I picture starting his NHL career at LW.
Yeah I feel like last time we seen DD play wing was in POs versus Boston and he got injured lol not saying its related but we never really got to see him play much there

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12-07-2012, 10:39 AM
  #284
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Yeah I feel like last time we seen DD play wing was in POs versus Boston and he got injured lol not saying its related but we never really got to see him play much there
He got injured, but before that he was doing a pretty good job along side Gionta and Gomez.
I think the decision will be based on their development.
If DD increases his point total, gets closer to a PPG, then I'm pretty sure he'll be kept at center.
If Eller shows offensive improvements, gets the finishing touch, then I can see him at center as well.

The only thing I don't want, is Eller given Prust and Moen, and be expected to break 40-50pts.
He needs a shot with top 6 wingers.

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12-07-2012, 11:02 AM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
He got injured, but before that he was doing a pretty good job along side Gionta and Gomez.
I think the decision will be based on their development.
If DD increases his point total, gets closer to a PPG, then I'm pretty sure he'll be kept at center.
If Eller shows offensive improvements, gets the finishing touch, then I can see him at center as well.

The only thing I don't want, is Eller given Prust and Moen, and be expected to break 40-50pts.
He needs a shot with top 6 wingers.
Yeah I'd also like to see when Pleks / DD out that Eller replaced them in top 2 lines consistantly or if the effort isn't there put him on top 2 PP or late in third to mix it up at center

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12-07-2012, 11:06 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Whereabouts Unknown View Post
Yeah I'd also like to see when Pleks / DD out that Eller replaced them in top 2 lines consistantly or if the effort isn't there put him on top 2 PP or late in third to mix it up at center
I just hope if one of pleks or DD are out, therrien will put eller in the top 6, and not gomez

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12-07-2012, 11:08 AM
  #287
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Well, I already explained in the last post that I don't think Eller should be paired with both MaxPac and Cole. One would be better, with another that would compliment these two.
That aside, I'm still waiting to hear why you have doubts Eller could ever reach 60pts.
He definitely shown very good offensive potential. So, not sure why 60pts is so far fetched.
He has the raw skills like AK does... but his offensive decision making seems a little slow at times. I could see him being a 40-50 pt two way guy kind of like Bolland or Steen. 40-50 pts is nothing to laugh at offensively btw... even in a top 6 role.

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12-07-2012, 11:14 AM
  #288
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I like Eller, but we really can't say much about how he would have produced. The only thing we can say is that he hasn't benefited from the powerplay time, from having the team's two best wingers and player against softer opposition. Would he do better? I have no ****ing clue, but at the same time none of us will ever have a clue if he continues to get zero powerplay time, tougher opposition, which depth players as wingers.

The only thing I want to point out is that he got the same amount of goals as Desharnais, with crappier wingers and less powerplay time. He also had to shoulder some of the defensive load.

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12-07-2012, 11:20 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
He got injured, but before that he was doing a pretty good job along side Gionta and Gomez.
I think the decision will be based on their development.
If DD increases his point total, gets closer to a PPG, then I'm pretty sure he'll be kept at center.
If Eller shows offensive improvements, gets the finishing touch, then I can see him at center as well.

The only thing I don't want, is Eller given Prust and Moen, and be expected to break 40-50pts.
He needs a shot with top 6 wingers.
Given the team's winger situation I'm content with Eller getting Prust and Moen and playing in a purely defensive role because that might be the best thing to help the team win. If your going to sacrifice offense for defense on one of the top 3 centers, he's the guy to do it.

If that does happen though I'm going to continue to rage at people that claim he's so much worse than other centers because he can't crack 40 points. Because the number of centers that could score that much playing in that role is vanishingly small.

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12-07-2012, 11:35 AM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Given the team's winger situation I'm content with Eller getting Prust and Moen and playing in a purely defensive role because that might be the best thing to help the team win. If your going to sacrifice offense for defense on one of the top 3 centers, he's the guy to do it.

If that does happen though I'm going to continue to rage at people that claim he's so much worse than other centers because he can't crack 40 points. Because the number of centers that could score that much playing in that role is vanishingly small.
Well, I'm not sure what will happen. Therrien is a new coach, and I have my reservations.
We'll see how he does. Priority is always for the team to win first, so if that means Eller centering two grinders, so be it, but I don't think that should be the case.

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12-07-2012, 11:35 AM
  #291
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He has the raw skills like AK does... but his offensive decision making seems a little slow at times. I could see him being a 40-50 pt two way guy kind of like Bolland or Steen. 40-50 pts is nothing to laugh at offensively btw... even in a top 6 role.
Decision making can improve with experience and confidence. It's not from a lack of vision or hockey skills, and his decisions weren't so bad when paired with AK.
This much tells me he could handle a top 6 role. Just how high is his production ceiling is unknown for now. I think it's too early to put a cap on anything seeing how he was mainly used as a 3rd or 4th line role player.

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12-07-2012, 11:38 AM
  #292
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I agree with a lot of what is posted above.

What I'm realistically hope for is the Habs find another top 6 LW, maybe Gally start off in the NHL to play with Plek and Gionta.

That way you can have a 3rd line of Prust-Eller-Bourque (has had more success playing RW, vs LW).

I think that is a really good 3rd line that can chip in offensively and play a shut-down role.

Prust is really good in his own end, we know Eller is, and while Bourque isn't great, he isn't a liability.

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12-07-2012, 11:43 AM
  #293
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Well, I'm not sure what will happen. Therrien is a new coach, and I have my reservations.
We'll see how he does. Priority is always for the team to win first, so if that means Eller centering two grinders, so be it, but I don't think that should be the case.
Well, I think the correct decision is to acquire the kind of winger depth that would let Eller play with a Kostitsyn level winger all the time allowing the three line offense MTL had to start the 2011-12 campaign which was producing some very impressing ES results before it got derailed about 20 games into the year. Which is a big reason I was so against parking 2.5 million on Prust.

But if they are going to insist on a grinder based line strategy using Eller as King of the Grinders is probably the only way to make it work.

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12-07-2012, 11:45 AM
  #294
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Decision making can improve with experience and confidence. It's not from a lack of vision or hockey skills, and his decisions weren't so bad when paired with AK.
This much tells me he could handle a top 6 role. Just how high is his production ceiling is unknown for now. I think it's too early to put a cap on anything seeing how he was mainly used as a 3rd or 4th line role player.
It's never early to speculate what kind of player he's going to be in his prime... While I would love him to be a 60-70pt #1 center who can play a two way game like a Mikko Koivu, I don't really see him reaching that. It's not so much a knock on him though because M Koivu is an elite talent. I think Eller will be vital to the habs success in the future because of his two-way play more so than his untapped offensive potential

No harm in projecting a players top level... but it's all speculation. A lot of this board is. That's the fun part

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12-07-2012, 11:55 AM
  #295
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Well, I think the correct decision is to acquire the kind of winger depth that would let Eller play with a Kostitsyn level winger all the time allowing the three line offense MTL had to start the 2011-12 campaign which was producing some very impressing ES results before it got derailed about 20 games into the year. Which is a big reason I was so against parking 2.5 million on Prust.

But if they are going to insist on a grinder based line strategy using Eller as King of the Grinders is probably the only way to make it work.
Bourque..

IMO he was brought in to replace AK on the 3rd line, I think Bourque is a better fit on the 3rd line with Eller and Prust, but some ppl rather have AK offensive skill, even though Bourque has outscored him in the past few years.

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12-07-2012, 11:58 AM
  #296
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Bourque..

IMO he was brought in to replace AK on the 3rd line, I think Bourque is a better fit on the 3rd line with Eller and Prust, but some ppl rather have AK offensive skill, even though Bourque has outscored him in the past few years.
Bourque isn't that kind of player anymore. He's got nothing on even Kostitsyn in terms of helping his team win.


He's also no where near good enough as a two-way player that you want him playing shutdown minutes. 3 years ago he was good at it, right now he's a liability.

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12-07-2012, 11:59 AM
  #297
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Bourque..

IMO he was brought in to replace AK on the 3rd line, I think Bourque is a better fit on the 3rd line with Eller and Prust, but some ppl rather have AK offensive skill, even though Bourque has outscored him in the past few years.
It would be good if Eller and Bourque find chemistry, I envision Bourque-Eller-Prust as a good line that is very tough to play against.

People were so disappointed with Bourque last season that they vastly underestimate him.

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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts
He's also no where near good enough as a two-way player that you want him playing shutdown minutes. 3 years ago he was good at it, right now he's a liability.
Prust and Eller are very good at it however so it could compensate. It should be tried at least, in case Bourque bounces back.

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12-07-2012, 12:04 PM
  #298
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It would be good if Eller and Bourque find chemistry, I envision Bourque-Eller-Prust as a good line that is very tough to play against.

People were so disappointed with Bourque last season that they vastly underestimate him.



Prust and Eller are very good at it however so it could compensate. It should be tried at least, in case Bourque bounces back.
The Bourque MTL got really wasn't that much different than the Bourque Calgary got for 1 1/2 year before he was traded. Calgary was just in a better position to mask his poor overall play and let him do the one thing he was still effective at (goal scoring) in 10-11 than either Calgary or Montreal was in 11-12.

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12-07-2012, 01:46 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Bourque isn't that kind of player anymore. He's got nothing on even Kostitsyn in terms of helping his team win.


He's also no where near good enough as a two-way player that you want him playing shutdown minutes. 3 years ago he was good at it, right now he's a liability.
I disagree while he doesn't have the hustle and hard work, Bourque is a good positional player in regards to playing in his own end, for that reason he was used on the PK, so I wouldn't play him a liability, or atleast not as bad as some make him seem.

Also Bourque was actually scoring goals until his trade to MTL, while his overall play might have been good, he still scored 13 goals in 38 games with the Flames last year, and was only a -3.


Last edited by habs03: 12-07-2012 at 01:54 PM.
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12-07-2012, 02:20 PM
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I disagree while he doesn't have the hustle and hard work, Bourque is a good positional player in regards to playing in his own end, for that reason he was used on the PK, so I wouldn't play him a liability, or atleast not as bad as some make him seem.

Also Bourque was actually scoring goals until his trade to MTL, while his overall play might have been good, he still scored 13 goals in 38 games with the Flames last year, and was only a -3.
As I've said a number of times elsewhere, scoring goals is the only good thing Bourque does any more. There he has been pretty comparable to Cole or Gionta. Other than that though, his tendency over the past two seasons has been to for Bourque's presence on a line to result in less offense for his linemates and for more goals against in Montreal or Calgary.

I'd put a big contrast here on him vs. Kostitsyn. While Kostitsyn isn't good enough to carry an offense nor suited for a pure shutdown role he's an ideal 5th winger. He's the one with the balanced skill set to be a very useful complimentary player.

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