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Jay Bouwmeester or Dion Phaneuf?

View Poll Results: well
Hard hitting Bouwmeester 24 21.62%
The Dion 87 78.38%
Voters: 111. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-07-2012, 07:57 AM
  #26
Leaf Rocket
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Originally Posted by OmniSens View Post
As much as it pains me to say, Phaneuf.
ha.

Phaneuf and when the time comes, and carlyle tells him to solidify his defensive game, it will be better

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Old
12-07-2012, 09:19 AM
  #27
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Close but Phaneuf

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Old
12-07-2012, 09:25 AM
  #28
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Phaneuf rather easily IMHO. The gap defensively is marginal while the gap offensively is clearly in Phaneufs favour. However, its quite sad, these are probably among two of the most naturally talented D in the game that are nearly brain dead when it comes to using their tools.

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Old
12-07-2012, 09:39 AM
  #29
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Both have not lived up to their hype at all, maybe Phanuef because of his offense, but Id much rather have Bouwmeester on the ice to protect a lead

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:37 AM
  #30
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Once again, people love criticizing Phaneuf by bringing his prone d-game into consideration even though they forget that he is used in all situations and does a decent job most of the time. I have seen many top d-man like Keith, Suter, Weber, Doughty etc get burned badly on few occasions. There is absolutely not a player in the league that plays complete mistake-free game.

And for all the love Bouwmeester gets for his defensive game, the guy is sooo freakin soft in the corners as opposed to Phaneuf(who you may believe it or not) is actually quite solid in that regard. If you have consistently watched him last year, you can see how easily he manhandles players like Stamkos, Ovie, Malkin in the corners and separates them from the puck quite comfortably.

As one of the poster above said, the gap between their defensive game isn't even close to being in the same situation as their offense.

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:40 AM
  #31
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Heres some info

Bouwmeester .
- made the playoffs once (in the AHL) over his entire career including junior.

- He went to 3 WJC which won silver and 2 bronze...

- He won in the 2004 World Cup of Hockey

- was on team Canada in the 2006 olympics which finished 7th place

Phaneuf

- made the playoffs in 8 of his 11 hockey seasons

- named defenseman of the year in junior twice

- Calder memorial nominee in crosby and ovechkin year

- finalist for the noris in 08

- won silver and gold in 04 and 05 at WJHC

- Won gold at the 2007 Men's World Ice Hockey Championships

- Currently captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs

- Voted 8th most feared hitter ever to step foot in the NHL

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:26 AM
  #32
tony d
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Dion Phaneuf

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:30 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I'll say it again. If you think CORSI proves who is better than who, then Ian White is better than Phaneuf.

And CORSI also says that Anze Kopitar, Joe Thornton, and Pavel Datsyuk are the best forwards in the league. Chara should have won the Norris, with Lidstrom and Boychuk as the other finalists.

What do you think of those selections?
It's not so black and white, please just learn to think about what the numbers mean. I bring up advanced statistics a lot because it's the only objective argument we really have here, otherwise it would just be a bunch of people saying, "Nuh-uh, you're wrong!" "No you're wrong!" etc, and I have no need for that kind of idiocy. I've always maintained that individual statistics are not the be-all, end-all, but they can certainly put things in perspective. I don't know why you need to act so childish about it, I never once suggested that whoever has the higher corsi is automatically the better player. Phaneuf played some of the top competition in the league, when he was on the ice his team had more shots relative to the competition, and his team got scored on less. That last one is pretty hard to do when you're up against that high of a level of competition, even a defensive beast like Seabrook has a higher GA ON/60 than a GA OFF/60. Now here's the part where you go "OH MY GOD YOU MUST THINK PHANEUF IS BETTER THAN SEABROOK DEFENSIVELY," no, I do not think that, I am just putting the numbers in perspective. With all that said, how can you really say that Phaneuf is terrible defensively, given all that information? Just throw the word corsi out of your vocabulary right now, you seem to have a preconceived hatred against it. The facts are, Phaneuf played some of the toughest minutes in the league, his team outshot opposition more when he was on the ice, and his team was scored on less when he was on the ice. Does that really sound like a player who is terrible defensively?

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:32 AM
  #34
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Dion.

Not close.

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:55 AM
  #35
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For once I can vote for Phaneuf without fearing people will call me a homer.

Dion wins without a doubt.

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Old
12-07-2012, 12:14 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pheasant the peasant View Post
For once I can vote for Phaneuf without fearing people will call me a homer.

Dion wins without a doubt.
homer


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Old
12-07-2012, 01:26 PM
  #37
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I'll take Phaneuf. He has the defensive IQ of a peanut, but Bouwmeester is so soft and plays with absolutely no passion.

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Old
12-07-2012, 01:47 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
It's not so black and white, please just learn to think about what the numbers mean. I bring up advanced statistics a lot because it's the only objective argument we really have here, otherwise it would just be a bunch of people saying, "Nuh-uh, you're wrong!" "No you're wrong!" etc, and I have no need for that kind of idiocy. I've always maintained that individual statistics are not the be-all, end-all, but they can certainly put things in perspective. I don't know why you need to act so childish about it, I never once suggested that whoever has the higher corsi is automatically the better player. Phaneuf played some of the top competition in the league, when he was on the ice his team had more shots relative to the competition, and his team got scored on less. That last one is pretty hard to do when you're up against that high of a level of competition, even a defensive beast like Seabrook has a higher GA ON/60 than a GA OFF/60. Now here's the part where you go "OH MY GOD YOU MUST THINK PHANEUF IS BETTER THAN SEABROOK DEFENSIVELY," no, I do not think that, I am just putting the numbers in perspective. With all that said, how can you really say that Phaneuf is terrible defensively, given all that information? Just throw the word corsi out of your vocabulary right now, you seem to have a preconceived hatred against it. The facts are, Phaneuf played some of the toughest minutes in the league, his team outshot opposition more when he was on the ice, and his team was scored on less when he was on the ice. Does that really sound like a player who is terrible defensively?
Relative CORSI is a terrible stat. Why? Because A) CORSI is highly driven by who you are on the ice with, and B) Relative CORSI is your CORSI On compared with the team's CORSI when you are not on the ice. Phaneuf played on a team that is thin on offense and defense, and he often played with the best offensive players. so of course he's going to be putting up better numbers than guys like Franson, etc. who are spending most of their time with Tim Connolly, Matthew Lombardi, and David Steckel. RelCORSI hurts players who play for a deep team, such as Detroit or Vancouver. Detroit had four defensemen (including Quincey) in the top 30 in CORSI On last season, and that doesn't include Kronwall, who was stapled to the black hole that is Brad Stuart. So going by RelCORSI, the Wings' defensemen will be hurt a lot more than Phaneuf by their teammates' performances. Even though it's quite clear that the Wings are, in fact, much deeper on D than Toronto - especially before Lidstrom retired.

Using CORSI is like using +/-. It's a severely flawed statistic. As for GA On/GA off? That goes back to teammates. This board voted Erik Johnson as the 16th-best defensive defenseman. He's not even on his team's shutdown pair, and he was on for more than he was off for.

In other words: CORSI is a relatively useless tool because you can't just compare players individually based on team performance. It's no different than using GAA alone to determine the best goalie.

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Old
12-07-2012, 01:58 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
Heres some info

Bouwmeester .
- made the playoffs once (in the AHL) over his entire career including junior.

- He went to 3 WJC which won silver and 2 bronze...

- He won in the 2004 World Cup of Hockey

- was on team Canada in the 2006 olympics which finished 7th place

Phaneuf

- made the playoffs in 8 of his 11 hockey seasons

- named defenseman of the year in junior twice

- Calder memorial nominee in crosby and ovechkin year

- finalist for the noris in 08

- won silver and gold in 04 and 05 at WJHC

- Won gold at the 2007 Men's World Ice Hockey Championships

- Currently captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs

- Voted 8th most feared hitter ever to step foot in the NHL
Citing junior stats is cool when they are prospects are 2rd year NHLers. This is just proves the point that Phanuef has lived up to his billing

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Old
12-07-2012, 02:15 PM
  #40
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Phaneuf and its not close.

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Old
12-07-2012, 03:29 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by RDRR View Post
Who would I want? Hmm.

Both might disrupt the team chemistry... a little. I know Bieksa doesn't like Bouwmeester. But he hasn't been that open about it.

(WARNING: long winded post that you may not find interesting)

The Canucks used to really get annoyed with Phaneuf though. Henrik doesn't show a lot of emotion, but I remember one time when he scored, he went straight up to Phaneuf and started trash talking him. Phaneuf glared at him. I remember because on the next coach's corner, Don Cherry was going on about how Hank was ****ed because he's seen those eyes before. But really, Phaneuf was ****ed. He got traded.

A lot of our players were saying Calgary won that deal. I remember Henrik saying Calgary is going to be a scary team now. Lol. Nice prediction Hank. I think they were all bsing because they hated Phaneuf. Luongo even said something along those lines. About how the Canucks were not going to have to deal with him any more... that's why everyone on the Canucks liked the trade.

So Phaneuf on the Canucks might not be a good idea.

Bieksa just didn't like Bouwmeester because he used to get so much hype while he got shat on by everyone (Canucks fans, trade rumours, etc.) for producing similar numbers.
Where did you come up with this

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Old
12-07-2012, 05:49 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
ha.

Phaneuf and when the time comes, and carlyle tells him to solidify his defensive game, it will be better
If you need to be told to solidify your defensive game, when you clearly aren't that good in it...

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Old
12-07-2012, 05:51 PM
  #43
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Interesting.

I tend to believe that Bouwmeester is overrated and Phaneuf is underrated.

I'll go with Dion. (wow)

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Old
12-07-2012, 05:57 PM
  #44
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Interesting.

I tend to believe that Bouwmeester is overrated and Phaneuf is underrated.

I'll go with Dion. (wow)
Bouwmeester is not overrated. People talk about him here like he's a huge liability, which he's not. The truth is that he's a good player whose just overpaid, and has played for some bad teams. If his cap hit was 4-5 mil, every team would want him.

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Old
12-07-2012, 06:07 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by maroon 6 View Post
Bouwmeester is not overrated. People talk about him here like he's a huge liability, which he's not. The truth is that he's a good player whose just overpaid, and has played for some bad teams. If his cap hit was 4-5 mil, every team would want him.
His offensive skills are non-existent.

I'd give him 3.5 to 4.

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Old
12-07-2012, 06:20 PM
  #46
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This isn't even a tough decision. Phaneuf is an all-star and actually under rated despite some of the hate he gets.

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Old
12-07-2012, 06:48 PM
  #47
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Jay Bo

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Old
12-07-2012, 07:09 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
His offensive skills are non-existent.

I'd give him 3.5 to 4.
His offensive skills are non-existent... yet he scored basically even with Phaneuf at ES while serving as a shut-down player in contrast to Phaneuf's role as an offensive catalyst.

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Old
12-07-2012, 07:11 PM
  #49
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I don't much like that boring loser Diane Fa-9. However, clearly Diane Fa-9.

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Old
12-07-2012, 07:20 PM
  #50
The Podium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
His offensive skills are non-existent... yet he scored basically even with Phaneuf at ES while serving as a shut-down player in contrast to Phaneuf's role as an offensive catalyst.
Phaneuf is actually both....

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