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CBA Thread, Daniel Bryan Edition: The lockout is (tentatively) over!

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12-07-2012, 10:11 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by JordanStaal#1Fan View Post
Great summary, but you made one mistake, IMO. The owners didn't do all the right things this week, they made a crucial mistake, they tried to bully the PA into a "take it or leave it" deal. .
My understanding is different; what I took from it was that as soon as Bettman and Fehr came back into the process, (and some player evidently leaked this to a media person whose name I forget), Fehr told them "not to take the deal; that we could get more".

To me that's as cut and dry as it gets unless someone can discredit the media person.

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12-07-2012, 10:13 AM
  #277
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There's more than just adater to discredit now. The players, such as Couture and Upshall, can sit there and say that everyone is behind Fehr 100% until they're blue in the face, but, the number isn't close anymore and it continues to shrink.

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12-07-2012, 10:15 AM
  #278
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https://twitter.com/mirtle/status/277083358176100352

Quote:
@mirtle One player source says they contemplated offering 10-year term limit, moderates talked it down to eight. "Won't go below eight."
Crosby tweets:

https://twitter.com/JoshYohe_Trib/st...86161715990528

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@JoshYohe_Trib
Crosby likely won't go back to NYC for more negotiations. Said trust is essentially gone.
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@JoshYohe_Trib
Crosby on playing in Europe: "At the end of the day, I'm a hockey player. This is getting ridiculous."


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12-07-2012, 10:51 AM
  #279
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Owners wanted contract term limits and the CBA to last a good while so we can avoid this circus for quite awhile. I don't think they're being unreasonable.

It's pretty obvious what set the owners off. Them having a deal Tuesday night. Then Fehr comes back into it and promises the players more concessions from the owners. It backfired on them.

This mess is on the PA now. Lock them the **** out.
I want the owners to win on the term limits, but they ****ed up. Simple as that.

You can't keep saying this is a take it or leave it offer, then blow your tops and create a circus when the PA is still negotiating. Imagine if the PA started taking things off the table, offered take it or leave it deals etc.

Burkle and Tannenbaum vow to stay until a deal is reached, then they stammer off after three days? Seriously?

Fehr continues to make Bettman and the owners lose their composure and act like fools. They need to keep calm and stop taking this so personally. It is business. I expect that some of the players will act like fools, because there is 700 of them. The owners should know better.

Now as Crosby said, the trust is gone. The league has to stop with these take it or leave it deals, stupid threats, etc. If the owners aren't careful, I'm beyond certain Fehr will get the PA to decertify, take the cap off the table, etc. Say what you will about Fehr, but the man has shown he can keep a union strong, even if they drive themselves over a cliff.

Fehr isn't going to play games. He doesn't bluff or care about the game. He cares about pushing an agenda and as I said before, Bettman brought this man on all of us. So Bettman needs to man up and stop with his charades as well as the owners, and hammer this out. They aren't going to remove Fehr from the table... Playing those games keeps getting the union more and more angry.

It is beyond ridiculous right now.

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12-07-2012, 11:21 AM
  #280
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It is intensely annoying when someone compares every day working class people and pay-cuts to wealthy millionaires who will see their share of (what used to be) a 3.3 bil. business cut to 50%. Perhaps it would behoove you to go back through the previous threads and understand why so many of us are pro-owner in this debacle.
I understand why it might be annoying to most people, but the poster you quoted is right. Yeah, they are millionaires, yeah, it is VERY hard to feel for them because they got rich playing a game we all wish we were good enough to play at the pro level, yeah, they are arrogant and cocky sometimes. However, their labor situation isn't any different than a regular labor dispute. Sure, I expect them to be WAY MORE leniant towards change than a normal worker, because giving back somethings in order to keep the business healthy won't make their life miserable like it could a normal worker, but I also understand why they are trying to get the most they can out of the process. That's how labor negociations work. Forget the big dollar figures for a moment and ask yourself if you would accept such a deal if it was your boss offering it to you. Probably not. Nobody would.

Should the player accept the deal that is on the table? Yes, because it doesn't hurt them that much. But to say that their labor dispute can't be compared to a regular worker's because they are rich, I don't agree with. Is their situation different? Yes! Should they be aware of that and be ready to give more than a normal worker would in order to maintain their privileged status in our society? Hell yes! But to say they should give in to any demands because they would be millionaires anyway, I don't agree with. It is pure jealousy in my opinion.

In the end, I think a FAIR DEAL for both parties could easily be reached if BOTH SIDES where willing to give JUST A LITTLE BIT MORE! It is *** absurd to break up the process over minor details. Is it Fehr's fault? Is it the owners' fault? I don't give a ****, it is just UNREAL that they can't resolve those issues. I know Bettman and Daly say those are major issues, but I'm not buying, you don't sacrifice a season over things like that, especially not when the other side is ready to accept your concept and only tries to negociate on term.

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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
My understanding is different; what I took from it was that as soon as Bettman and Fehr came back into the process, (and some player evidently leaked this to a media person whose name I forget), Fehr told them "not to take the deal; that we could get more".

To me that's as cut and dry as it gets unless someone can discredit the media person.
Yeah, looking at this your way, it sure looks bad on Fehr. However, I maintain that it is utterly ridiculous for the owners to claim that those issues are worth being "the hill we die on". It can be negociated quite easily because both sides are basically speaking the same language. They are so close yet so far appart, it is pretty sad.

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12-07-2012, 11:25 AM
  #281
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I want the owners to win on the term limits, but they ****ed up. Simple as that.

You can't keep saying this is a take it or leave it offer, then blow your tops and create a circus when the PA is still negotiating. Imagine if the PA started taking things off the table, offered take it or leave it deals etc.

Burkle and Tannenbaum vow to stay until a deal is reached, then they stammer off after three days? Seriously?

Fehr continues to make Bettman and the owners lose their composure and act like fools. They need to keep calm and stop taking this so personally. It is business. I expect that some of the players will act like fools, because there is 700 of them. The owners should know better.

Now as Crosby said, the trust is gone. The league has to stop with these take it or leave it deals, stupid threats, etc. If the owners aren't careful, I'm beyond certain Fehr will get the PA to decertify, take the cap off the table, etc. Say what you will about Fehr, but the man has shown he can keep a union strong, even if they drive themselves over a cliff.

Fehr isn't going to play games. He doesn't bluff or care about the game. He cares about pushing an agenda and as I said before, Bettman brought this man on all of us. So Bettman needs to man up and stop with his charades as well as the owners, and hammer this out. They aren't going to remove Fehr from the table... Playing those games keeps getting the union more and more angry.

It is beyond ridiculous right now.


That sums it up pretty good. Fehr is an ass, always was an ass and always will be an ass, but he was brought there because Bettman and the owners have been acting the way they are now for more than a decade. The players got frustrated and turned to an evil they didn't fully understand (thank you Chris Nolan).

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12-07-2012, 11:27 AM
  #282
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I don't agree with people here saying the NHL said "take it or leave it" and used a bullying tactic. I think that's such a cop-out for the players. The owners who were in the meeting Tuesday night bargained with the players. Each side picked SPECIFICS they needed in the CBA. Both sides obviously agreed as we heard tons of tweets about potential deal being done/optimism/progress/etc. Then when it comes time to present the deal, everything changes? Come on. That's what caused the issue. Fehr thought he could play the game and there was no game being played. That's why Bettman and Fehr were out of the picture.

So yes.. they agreed on specifics then wanted to change the specifics. Come on, folks. This is easy. The players said make this, this, and this right and you have a deal. The owners said fine... but we need this, this, and this. Players agreed. {Enter stage left - Donald Fehr} Everything changes Wednesday when we could be rejoicing over the new deal.

It's documented this way... the pressers show it this way... tweets show it this way. What else is left to discuss? This was a terrible move from Fehr. Terrible.

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12-07-2012, 11:32 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I don't agree with people here saying the NHL said "take it or leave it" and used a bullying tactic. I think that's such a cop-out for the players. The owners who were in the meeting Tuesday night bargained with the players. Each side picked SPECIFICS they needed in the CBA. Both sides obviously agreed as we heard tons of tweets about potential deal being done/optimism/progress/etc. Then when it comes time to present the deal, everything changes? Come on. That's what caused the issue. Fehr thought he could play the game and there was no game being played. That's why Bettman and Fehr were out of the picture.

So yes.. they agreed on specifics then wanted to change the specifics. Come on, folks. This is easy. The players said make this, this, and this right and you have a deal. The owners said fine... but we need this, this, and this. Players agreed. {Enter stage left - Donald Fehr} Everything changes Wednesday when we could be rejoicing over the new deal.

It's documented this way... the pressers show it this way... tweets show it this way. What else is left to discuss? This was a terrible move from Fehr. Terrible.
This!

What's scariest though, is the players seem to be totally blind to their own idiocy. For the first time, I think the season is done unless in the next few days, Fehr can be convinced that the deal that was offered is acceptable.

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12-07-2012, 11:34 AM
  #284
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The owners, DID give in more, they HAVE been giving in more.

Take aside the ridiculous low ball offer that went out originally. Which was simply an obvious ploy to get to 50-50.

The reason owners were so infuriated is that to cough up that extra 90M on make whole and say fine we'll keep a myriad of other contract things as before was a lot of arm twisting by the moderate owners to get the hard liners to go with.

So to wring that out for the players to just turn around and divert it to pensions, and then some ridiculous drivil about wanting the next players to have a say in 5 years.

WTF!!! I hope Santa gives Fehr a piece of coal (perhaps coated with manure that's on fire) for christmas.

Burkle has negotiated with unions in the past, he is a players owner and is one of *THE* moderates. For him to be pissed off, ready to explode should tell you something. I been saying it all along, Fehr is a passive aggressive **** and he is marching the players arm in arm off a cliff.


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12-07-2012, 11:36 AM
  #285
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I don't agree with people here saying the NHL said "take it or leave it" and used a bullying tactic. I think that's such a cop-out for the players. The owners who were in the meeting Tuesday night bargained with the players. Each side picked SPECIFICS they needed in the CBA. Both sides obviously agreed as we heard tons of tweets about potential deal being done/optimism/progress/etc. Then when it comes time to present the deal, everything changes? Come on. That's what caused the issue. Fehr thought he could play the game and there was no game being played. That's why Bettman and Fehr were out of the picture.

So yes.. they agreed on specifics then wanted to change the specifics. Come on, folks. This is easy. The players said make this, this, and this right and you have a deal. The owners said fine... but we need this, this, and this. Players agreed. {Enter stage left - Donald Fehr} Everything changes Wednesday when we could be rejoicing over the new deal.

It's documented this way... the pressers show it this way... tweets show it this way. What else is left to discuss? This was a terrible move from Fehr. Terrible.
Well, Bettman did say that for them, it was a "package deal", so basically, yes, it was a take it or leave it offer.

I wasn't in the room, so I can't know for sure, but I doubt the league said on Tuesday night that the contract limit HAD to be 5 years and that the CBA HAD to be 10 years. I'm pretty sure that what was agreed upon were the concept of contract limits and a lenghtier term. If what you say were true, they would have sign a deal on Tuesday.

What also might have been said is this: the players said they needed movement on make-whole and pension plans, they league said they needed movement on contract terms and the CBA lenght. They players DID make some movement on BOTH of these fronts and they DID use the language the NHL proposed to them.

Did Fehr act like an ass? God yes! But should the NHL break off the talks on such minor divergence of opinion? That's ludicrous IMO! We are SO CLOSE to a deal, I can't understand why they don't reach one. I mean, yeah, if the NHL moves towards the players and Fehr ask for even more things, I'll be 100% on your side COle, but as of now, I can't understand why the league walked away. Maybe they are afraid that if they move towards the players, Fehr will ask for even more. Maybe they will accept what the players proposed or negociate from it at a latter date, but now, maybe they feel it is time for them to put a stop to Fehr's tactics. That's the only logical reason to walk away from the table. And if they trully need to do that in order to reach an agreement, then, yes, Fehr is negociating in bad faith.

I'm repeating myself, but I can't understand why things are going south when we seem SO CLOSE to an agreement.

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12-07-2012, 11:42 AM
  #286
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This!

What's scariest though, is the players seem to be totally blind to their own idiocy. For the first time, I think the season is done unless in the next few days, Fehr can be convinced that the deal that was offered is acceptable.
Fehr's a piece of **** but I understand what he's doing. He's trying to squeeze every drop out before he signs. Whether it works or not isn't his problem since he has virtually nothing invested in either side once the deal is made.

Believe me...I hate the guy but it's his job to get the best deal possible for the players and this is how he's going about doing it. He doesn't care if the league's mad at him or the owners or even the fans. That's not his concern. The NHL has made at least two claims that they've offered their "best" and both times they've come back with more. Is Fehr hitting on a 20 this time? Maybe, but if that's the case I'm sure he could go back and get yesterday's deal back on the table.

He's paid to be the villain, do the dirty work and deflect as much blame off the players as possible. The second he was hired all of this become a very real possibility.

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12-07-2012, 12:11 PM
  #287
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He's paid to be the villain, do the dirty work and deflect as much blame off the players as possible. The second he was hired all of this become a very real possibility.
Prett much. You don't hire Donald Fehr (a mob boss if there ever was one) unless you're prepared to kill off everything and scorch the earth.

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12-07-2012, 12:20 PM
  #288
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Fehr's a piece of **** but I understand what he's doing. He's trying to squeeze every drop out before he signs. Whether it works or not isn't his problem since he has virtually nothing invested in either side once the deal is made.

Believe me...I hate the guy but it's his job to get the best deal possible for the players and this is how he's going about doing it. He doesn't care if the league's mad at him or the owners or even the fans. That's not his concern. The NHL has made at least two claims that they've offered their "best" and both times they've come back with more. Is Fehr hitting on a 20 this time? Maybe, but if that's the case I'm sure he could go back and get yesterday's deal back on the table.

He's paid to be the villain, do the dirty work and deflect as much blame off the players as possible. The second he was hired all of this become a very real possibility.
This....

There is still a little left to give by the owners, such as going from 5% to 10% variance year to year on contracts. It was his job to slow down his players and try for that last little nibble. He miscalculated the emotional state of the owners though, asked for too much.

Now his job is to get that deal back, with just a little more.

This is under the assumption though that Fehr does not have his own agenda. If that is indeed the case, everyone is screwed because these owners will not yield like MLB has.

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12-07-2012, 12:25 PM
  #289
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I want the owners to win on the term limits, but they ****ed up. Simple as that.

You can't keep saying this is a take it or leave it offer, then blow your tops and create a circus when the PA is still negotiating. Imagine if the PA started taking things off the table, offered take it or leave it deals etc.

Burkle and Tannenbaum vow to stay until a deal is reached, then they stammer off after three days? Seriously?

Fehr continues to make Bettman and the owners lose their composure and act like fools. They need to keep calm and stop taking this so personally. It is business. I expect that some of the players will act like fools, because there is 700 of them. The owners should know better.

Now as Crosby said, the trust is gone. The league has to stop with these take it or leave it deals, stupid threats, etc. If the owners aren't careful, I'm beyond certain Fehr will get the PA to decertify, take the cap off the table, etc. Say what you will about Fehr, but the man has shown he can keep a union strong, even if they drive themselves over a cliff.

Fehr isn't going to play games. He doesn't bluff or care about the game. He cares about pushing an agenda and as I said before, Bettman brought this man on all of us. So Bettman needs to man up and stop with his charades as well as the owners, and hammer this out. They aren't going to remove Fehr from the table... Playing those games keeps getting the union more and more angry.

It is beyond ridiculous right now.
So to be clear, you're on the side of the guy who doesn't care if he leaves the League in a fiery pit, as long as he wins?

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12-07-2012, 12:31 PM
  #290
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I don't agree with people here saying the NHL said "take it or leave it" and used a bullying tactic. I think that's such a cop-out for the players. The owners who were in the meeting Tuesday night bargained with the players. Each side picked SPECIFICS they needed in the CBA. Both sides obviously agreed as we heard tons of tweets about potential deal being done/optimism/progress/etc. Then when it comes time to present the deal, everything changes? Come on. That's what caused the issue. Fehr thought he could play the game and there was no game being played. That's why Bettman and Fehr were out of the picture.

So yes.. they agreed on specifics then wanted to change the specifics. Come on, folks. This is easy. The players said make this, this, and this right and you have a deal. The owners said fine... but we need this, this, and this. Players agreed. {Enter stage left - Donald Fehr} Everything changes Wednesday when we could be rejoicing over the new deal.

It's documented this way... the pressers show it this way... tweets show it this way. What else is left to discuss? This was a terrible move from Fehr. Terrible.
It's truly no more simpler than that Cole.

The whole point of this week was to take the so called leadership out of the equation on BOTH sides. Progress was made SPECIFICALLY because they took the two poison pills out of the room.

Then the players, who seemed to like everything coming from the other side, suddenly change their tune because they decide to bring Fehr back into the discussion, even though Bettman continued to stay on the sidelines.

Obvious bias on my side, but I trust Mr. Burkle's word over anyone involved in this mess.

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12-07-2012, 12:31 PM
  #291
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This is now on the NHLPA. And I doubt we see hockey this season. Owners should shut it down.

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12-07-2012, 01:19 PM
  #292
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I have to agree. If for no other reason than to see Fehr fail / set a new precedent with this jagoff. Maybe the next big labor negotiator that comes along won't be such a divisive weasel.

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12-07-2012, 01:23 PM
  #293
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So to be clear, you're on the side of the guy who doesn't care if he leaves the League in a fiery pit, as long as he wins?
I'm on no side, bro. I said right at the start I want the owners to win term limits.

I also was pretty clear that Fehr cares little for the game (and have been adamant about that for months). He is paid to squeeze the best deal he can from the league. Period. It is business to him. That is why he never gets emotional like Bettman.

The owners and Bettman act butt hurt every time he pushes for more, acting like it is an act of treason.

Fehr flipped the script by getting 100m more on make whole, putting it in his pocket and saying now give me this to. It is exactly what Bettman did with the 24% rollback. When Bettman did it, it was being a tough negotiator getting the best deal for his side. Fehr does the same thing and Bettman throws a hissy fit.

Man the **** up and act like professionals. You are representing the league. You ARE the face of the league. What Bettman did last night was sickening and uncalled for.

We were told they were staying in NY until a deal was done... Three days later when things don't go their way, Bettman does his rehearsed act on stage and Burkle and Tannenbaum high tail it out of town.

That they give up and keep pulling this **** every time it gets hard, doesn't bother you?

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12-07-2012, 01:32 PM
  #294
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I have to agree. If for no other reason than to see Fehr fail / set a new precedent with this jagoff. Maybe the next big labor negotiator that comes along won't be such a divisive weasel.
NHLPA had a guy that was working well with owners and was respected by owners

Lindros and other hardliners in NHLPA orchestrated a coup to remove him for being buddy buddy with NHL (+ He ordered investigation into how NHLPA funds had been spent under previous leadership)

If Kelly was never removed from NHLPA leadership spot there would be a season with no stoppage IMO this year

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12-07-2012, 01:37 PM
  #295
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Man the **** up and act like professionals. You are representing the league. You ARE the face of the league. What Bettman did last night was sickening and uncalled for.



That they give up and keep pulling this **** every time it gets hard, doesn't bother you?
This is 2012 and this crap was getting reported on twitter. I, for one, am more than happy someone went up there and spoke from the heart. For crying out loud, I'm a fan that invests time/money into this product. For the first time, I was told the truth.

I don't know how ANYONE could hate what bettman did last night.

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12-07-2012, 01:39 PM
  #296
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I'm on no side, bro. I said right at the start I want the owners to win term limits.

I also was pretty clear that Fehr cares little for the game (and have been adamant about that for months). He is paid to squeeze the best deal he can from the league. Period. It is business to him. That is why he never gets emotional like Bettman.

The owners and Bettman act butt hurt every time he pushes for more, acting like it is an act of treason.

Fehr flipped the script by getting 100m more on make whole, putting it in his pocket and saying now give me this to. It is exactly what Bettman did with the 24% rollback. When Bettman did it, it was being a tough negotiator getting the best deal for his side. Fehr does the same thing and Bettman throws a hissy fit.

Man the **** up and act like professionals. You are representing the league. You ARE the face of the league. What Bettman did last night was sickening and uncalled for.

We were told they were staying in NY until a deal was done... Three days later when things don't go their way, Bettman does his rehearsed act on stage and Burkle and Tannenbaum high tail it out of town.

That they give up and keep pulling this **** every time it gets hard, doesn't bother you?
most people find what fehr did last night to be more "sickening and uncalled for."

it seems like you have your anti-bettman agenda and are viewing everything through that prism, rather than objectively viewing events as they transpire and then forming an opinion.

despite your claims of being on neither side, your anti-bettman bias is pretty clear to everyone.

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12-07-2012, 01:46 PM
  #297
Sidney the Kidney
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I'll readily admit that some of the fine details that were originally being discussed when this thing started goes over my head, but now it seems like the two sides aren't even discussing the actual issues anymore. Instead, it seems they're more intent on slinging mud and taking everything personal.

At this point I'm so over this fight between two sides that I really don't care if the league shuts down for the year. And if I'm being honest, how I feel right now I'd have a hard time even watching games even if the two sides did come to an agreement and salvaged the season.

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12-07-2012, 01:49 PM
  #298
Coach John McGuirk
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Bettman was able to put his ego aside and set away from the negotiations for the hope that a deal could be done.

Fehr muscled his way back in, when it sounded like the two sides had agreed in principle to a deal, and destroyed any chance of that. If you don't think it had something to do with the guy's ego, then I don't know what to say. Both sides work without their figureheads for a night and we almost reach a deal, but as soon as Fehr comes back everything goes ****-up and immediately everything the owners conceded to is taken off the table? I think the REAL problem is Fehr, and it's plain and clear.

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12-07-2012, 02:15 PM
  #299
Mr Jiggyfly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
most people find what fehr did last night to be more "sickening and uncalled for."

it seems like you have your anti-bettman agenda and are viewing everything through that prism, rather than objectively viewing events as they transpire and then forming an opinion.

despite your claims of being on neither side, your anti-bettman bias is pretty clear to everyone.
Your powers of perception are as amazing as ever.

At no point in any of my posts have I ever tried to hide my disdain for Bettman. Suggesting I am trying to gloss over my dislike for him is absurd.

However, that doesn't mean I agree with everything the players are doing. Believe it or not, it is possible to see both sides of an argument when you are the bystander. I have also expressed over and over again that Fehr doesn't care about the game (somehow you gloss over that... Quite convenient I'd say).

Did I just say I want the owners to win term limits? Yep. It is more than reasonable why those two issues matter to them so much.

What isn't reasonable is to get up there and blow a gasket and keep playing the same games he tried with BG and lost a season over. Trying to break up the PA is just going to continue to piss them off and make them act unreasonable.

Fehr is playing games and the owners seem incapable of handling his tactics and keeping cool heads. It's business and they are making it a personal war agt. Fehr.

They should know better, but given the last twenty years of labor negotiations under Bettman, why should I be surprised this is happening?

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Old
12-07-2012, 02:19 PM
  #300
Mr Jiggyfly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
This is 2012 and this crap was getting reported on twitter. I, for one, am more than happy someone went up there and spoke from the heart. For crying out loud, I'm a fan that invests time/money into this product. For the first time, I was told the truth.

I don't know how ANYONE could hate what bettman did last night.
I've seen it before. He did it to BG the last time and blew a huge gasket in '95 as well. People either forget or weren't fans then I guess.

This is what the man does and it wasn't done for us, it was done to scare the players and cause dissent among their ranks, get them to turn on Fehr, etc.

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