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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VIIII: "We're Close" "We're Not Close" Edition

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:25 AM
  #226
Bleed Ranger Blue
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Maybe not from the beginning in his Oilers years, but Messier as a Ranger acted exactly how everyone is upset that Crosby acts. The sense of entitlement was definitely there.
Crosby was as bad as ever when he first entered the league, and hadnt earned the right to be entitled to anything.

Hes been better lately, maybe a bit of humility comes with being knocked silly. Plus hes won a cup and delivered a gold-medal winning goal, so Im sort of over it. But I wont act like his BS from the first few years he entered the league doesnt leave a sour taste in my mouth.

I would love for him to be on the Rangers, FWIW

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12-07-2012, 11:27 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The major problem is that every issue is seemingly dealt with in a vacuum and is absolute.

There doesnt seem to be any "OK, we offered 300M for make-whole, if you want to move the contract limits up to 8 years, that means $50M is coming out of the make-whole fund"

Instead its "OK, make-whole is done - next step contract term limits. What? you want 8 years instead of 5? Well, that make-whole thing is completely off the table now"

The scary thing is Bettman wasnt even the room, but his negotiating tactics, if you can even call them that, seems to have permeated throughout.
I hear you, but wasn't make whole a compromise for 50/50? The players are getting nothing for the rest, the new compromise is make contracts 8 years. I mean, a week ago there was no agreement on contract controls. Yesterday players accepted the concept of variance and term. They asked for 8 years instead of 5, 25% variance instead of 5%. That is compromise. The league could have countered.

I just don't see it as a vacuum. Certainly not from the player side.

Outside of make whole, league concessions are hotel rooms, a player funded pension, increased revenue sharing, and a new cap floor calculator (with the league buggered).

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:32 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Cliffy1814 View Post
Both are ture leaders, and Yes both were (are) sneaky / dirty players.
Messier gave more butt ends and elbows away from the play than anyone in the league. I believe he was also suspended multiple times (in an era when nobody especially star players got suspended).
And both whined a TON to the refs.

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Originally Posted by Cliffy1814 View Post
And how has the sense of entitlement manifested itself in a negative way?
He works hard, says and does the right thing, and leads in the dressing room.
Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Crosby was as bad as ever when he first entered the league, and hadnt earned the right to be entitled to anything.

Hes been better lately, maybe a bit of humility comes with being knocked silly. Plus hes won a cup and delivered a gold-medal winning goal, so Im sort of over it. But I wont act like his BS from the first few years he entered the league doesnt leave a sour taste in my mouth.
See, I can understand that for when he first came into the league. But if you are saying that a player can earn the right to such entitlement, like Messier did, then hasn't Crosby proven that he deserved his too?

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12-07-2012, 11:36 AM
  #229
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Re the season being "done". You never know, but this is how the two sides play.

Bettman made a final and non negotiable offer a couple of weeks ago, and the two sides moved long from that offer after that. Fehr is trying to be as difficult as possible.

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:37 AM
  #230
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Sorry, I don't applaud the crybaby attitude as if he is owed everything and can do no wrong. Part of that is definitely Bettman and the NHL's fault for provoking that attitude/mentality, but Crosby makes it so vividly clear on the ice. Not to mention the dives/embellishments of contact on him as well as the cheap shots he sneaks in when the refs aren't looking just like at the end of last year in that PIT/PHI game. Him and Malkin both do it.

No break from me here.
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Originally Posted by I Am Chariot View Post
Donald Fehr is not helping this process. Clearly he cares only about getting as much as he can, even if it means no season.

Players and owners - THE ACTUAL HOCKEY LOVERS IN THIS EQUATION WERE SO CLOSE..

This aint baseball bro... you're not going to win. The players will have to concede that they ontop of getting MILLIONS to play a game they love, they will have to give in some to the owners.

The players never win in these negotiations. They suck at business and the owners are for the most part Billionaire deal makers who own these teams because it's amusing to them.

The statements from the owners post talks says it all. These guys are not evil. They were giving up tons to get this season going, they had a good, fair negotiation with the players.

Fehr is a greedy non hockey fan, and unfortunately it now looks like there will be no 2013 season.
Agreed and agreed. Well said on both points.

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:38 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Re the season being "done". You never know, but this is how the two sides play.

Bettman made a final and non negotiable offer a couple of weeks ago, and the two sides moved long from that offer after that. Fehr is trying to be as difficult as possible.
This can't be stressed enough. He also stated that his offers before the season would have started were to be taken off the table once they started cancelling games. Instead, they got better. Bettman's bluffs have been called successfully at every step of the negotiation. There's no reason for the players to believe him now.

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12-07-2012, 11:40 AM
  #232
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This can't be stressed enough. He also stated that his offers before the season would have started were to be taken off the table once they started cancelling games. Instead, they got better. Bettman's bluffs have been called successfully at every step of the negotiation. There's no reason for the players to believe him now.
Agreed

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12-07-2012, 11:44 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Fehr is a johnny-come-lately to the NHL landscape. Im sure he doesnt view this whole thing as the league offering concessions. For him, the baseline is the expired CBA. And when you look at it that way, the players are quite literally being presented the status quo on some issues as a best case scenario.

As for what you described, yea thats probably how it went down. But thats what you get when you line up a bunch of sharks against people who play hockey for a living. Fehr probably thinks he came in and saved the day for his beleaguered group of players.

Quite frankly, I dont know how or why the PA leadership agreed to type of meetings we saw this week in the first place.
This is where I come from. I don't buy the notion Fehr does not want a deal.

People are mad about how the union "took" the concessions yesterday... that had been league S.O.P. for two lockouts.

I'm reading "the league always wins, why are the players fighting". But if you complain about the circumstances of the last lockout, you hear "the players won, the deal was tremendous for them". Its bipolar. Its frustrating because the players are always wrong. No right move.

The league has gained miles from the last CBA. That is the barometer. It's not enough. They have their revenue split and contract controls. New additions to calculating the player share. We may lose another season over 2-3 years on contracts, 20% of variance... if they don't compromise off the PA proposal. The players will lose UFA years and contract term next time.

Its funny actually because we are seeing benefit for the khl. We need more talent and the league is begging guys to stay in Europe. Then they'll expand and spark another round of bad teams in weak markets with bidding wars on stars.


Last edited by DutchShamrock: 12-07-2012 at 11:54 AM.
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Old
12-07-2012, 11:45 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by I Am Chariot View Post
The players never win in these negotiations. They suck at business and the owners are for the most part Billionaire deal makers who own these teams because it's amusing to them.
No offense, but this is amongst the dumbest things that I have ever heard. It is amusing to an owner to invest roughly $200 million into something? That is a major investment. And you are telling them that to simply wipe that off the books does not hurt? Are you kidding me?

Do you know any millionaires? They watch each basis point MUCH more than you do.

The owners are doing this becuase it is an investment. Not for amusement. This is not simply pocket change for them.

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:48 AM
  #235
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True Blue, in most cases it's a business investment. However, there is at least one owner (Terry Pegula) who just likes owning a hockey team and doesn't seem to care much if he loses a few million bucks a year on it. Obviously, he'd rather make money, but the impression he gives is that it's all the same to him.

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12-07-2012, 11:49 AM
  #236
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Its definitely not baseball. They praise Fehr for creating a partnership and a conducive atmosphere. He is credited with several successful negotiations from both sides.

Fehr is no angel but the bar got pushed WAY too far because of some scripted comments yesterday. We loved him for the concessions and an hour later he is vilified because he allegedly acted like the league at the table.

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12-07-2012, 11:52 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Re the season being "done". You never know, but this is how the two sides play.

Bettman made a final and non negotiable offer a couple of weeks ago, and the two sides moved long from that offer after that. Fehr is trying to be as difficult as possible.
Sure, but we are getting past the point of long "cooling" periods. Eventually, the NHL is going to call off the season.

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12-07-2012, 11:52 AM
  #238
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I'm stunned that a deal wasn't made by today.

The sides seem close. Fehr banked on a profitable NHL (versus 2004) as the justification in believing that the owners want the season played. THe owners now have skin in the game. I assumed that with the movement seen earlier in the week that Fehr would play give and take with the owners and hammer out a deal.

Now? I'm not sure about the players end game? It made sense to move to a settlement when we reached the point of diminishing returns for the players. At this point, I believe the players made a strategic mistake. They alienated the moderate owners. If Jacobs was pissed, who cares? Tanenbaum? Not a wise move.
IMO, The owners are done with negotiating unless an aggressive move is made by the players. I'm not sure the players have many allies left in the NHL.

I have respect for the players, giving up money in exchange for principles. I believe they made their stand and pushed back supporting their own position. Now, what's left other than to push the owners to cancel the season?

Yes, the negotiation is all about power. Yes, the players lost in 2004 and maybe this is their payback to the owners? I am wondering if they wish to light their own house on fire if it will spread to the mansion next door? Macho? I guess. Practical? NO.
The owners will rebuild their house without much effort. The players??? I'm still not sure what they win from here on out?

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12-07-2012, 11:53 AM
  #239
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The distrust on both sides right now is toxic.

Between Bettman constantly threatening to take his ball (puck?) and go home so nobody can play only to back off, walking out of meeting after 10 minutes, and leaving a rejection of an offer on voice mail (perhaps the least professional thing I've ever seen in a contract negotiation) and ownership not being able to cope with an understand the strategies of an old-fashioned, been through the wars labor negotiator....we are in danger of seeing this season lost. Hockey as we know it is being destroyed. The damage done to this point cannot be underestimated.

Some neutral party needs to come in here and physical shake these guys up, point up how close they truly are, and present a compromise that both sides could agree to without the perception that they are giving in.

Somewhere, such a person or institution must exist. Federal mediators are not the answer; ownership distrusts them because of their perceived bias towards the players (not really true). We are in desperate straights here. Someone needs to come between the sides, sit them down, calm them down, and present a solution. Every second counts. Before you know it, it will be XMAS, New Years, mid-January, and then....oblivion.

Otherwise: R.I.P. NHL. Who knows what will come next.

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12-07-2012, 11:53 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
True Blue, in most cases it's a business investment. However, there is at least one owner (Terry Pegula) who just likes owning a hockey team and doesn't seem to care much if he loses a few million bucks a year on it. Obviously, he'd rather make money, but the impression he gives is that it's all the same to him.
Its business and pleasure for him. He seemed to care when his money was spent poorly. Think he blames Leino for the contract or his GM? Any impression you get is to make a billionaire relatable to the public. Nothing against him but this isn't a rich version of fantasy hockey.

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12-07-2012, 11:59 AM
  #241
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Its business and pleasure for him. He seemed to care when his money was spent poorly. Think he blames Leino for the contract or his GM? Any impression you get is to make a billionaire relatable to the public. Nothing against him but this isn't a rich version of fantasy hockey.
He blames his GM for the money spent poorly, but mostly because it hurt the team on the ice.

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12-07-2012, 12:11 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Henriks Broadway Hat View Post
Posted on main board.
The entire interview can be found here:

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/gruppsi...rtikel=5372963

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12-07-2012, 12:19 PM
  #243
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As of now, I join SOS and take a sabbatical.....BUT first I'll have my rant ;-)

People saying that the two sides are close did not watch Bettman's presser. Essentially, he declared several times the sides are in fact NOT close and that comments from the other side saying they were are intentionally miss leading. Right or wrong the guy feels like he's been played for a sap and he is truly humiliated. Not good. This thing has crossed a very bad line into the personal now. It's shaping up as a very protracted and nasty fight. Shields up. Phasers locked on. Shoot to kill.

I can totally appreciate what both sides are doing. It's a multi - billion dollar business and the fight is on to carve it up. NEVER FORGET - both sides understand one very important truth. People like myself will remain fans. When hockey comes back...if it does, the majority of us will be rolling on our backs and wetting ourselves like puppies we'll be so happy. Those that don't will grudgingly drift back in due course. For the fans NHL hockey is like crack. We need the fix. That is what helps create a billion dollar enterprise. The owners and players know it. Any statement to the contrary is total BS.

The players are right: The owners are using every tactic they can come up with to gain leverage, break the players and add to their bottom line. DUH! If I were an owner, I'd be doing the same.

The owners are right: The players make very nice money, travel like kings and are generally living a pampered and privileged life....that will only get better. Again: DUH! If I were a player, I'd do everything I could to make the best possible deal for myself.

Result: No hockey.

At this point, all the talk is jibber jabber or speculation until they sign a deal. Having a dog in a fight between millionaires and billionaires is a huge waste of time, imo.

A very Happy Holidays folks. Put down the jones and go spend time with your families.

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12-07-2012, 12:31 PM
  #244
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So Bettman is victimized and the other side lied? Based on Bettman's comments? It's posturing. They are targeting a 50ish game season. There is time and he is scaring the players. How are they not close? Whoa 5 years is so far from 8.

Neither side is right but don't overreact. This is just like 2004. Get your terms, end talks, attack the union head, divide the players. Then you get more concessions.

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12-07-2012, 12:48 PM
  #245
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I just watched the prssers from last night..

I absolutely hate Bettman. but you can tell he wass pised off and you can see the passion from him and Daly.

Fehr on the other hand? **** that POS. Didn't even look like he gave damn.

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12-07-2012, 01:00 PM
  #246
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Just the opposite for me....

Bettman; phony, manipulative emotion.

Fehr: in control and ready to move on.

But it doesn't make a bit of a difference, does it? My emotion was simple.... I was so angry and upset (still am) that I wanted to throw things around. Our emotions as fans don't count for "a hill of beans." (and I don't mean Daly's hill).

I've been a hockey fan for over 50 years and to see something you love dying hurts.

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12-07-2012, 01:02 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Hundreds of thousands to tens of millions of dollars to play a game for six months out of the year isn't enough! They need more!

People don't get paid for how hard they work. If you go outside and dig useless holes all day, nobody will pay you because there's no value in your hard work.

The value of your work comes from how rare it is. This is where education, for instance, comes into play. People think you get paid because it is "fair" to pay someone more for being educated. Bulls--t. You get paid more people you have less competition as a doctor than as a waiter: more people can be waiters than doctors.

Talent makes you unique. You can get "replacement waiters" and "replacement teachers" without anyone noticing a difference, but if you get "replacement players" to play hockey, you'll notice the difference between Ryan McDonagh and Lee Baldwin.

People think of economics in terms of what's "fair", which is utter BS. You think I will pay you more money if you go to get a BA in sociology? Why do I care about your education? Why would I care that you having more children than your neighbor means you "fairly" need more money? Economics is determined by supply and demand, nothing else.

And when there's a massive demand to watch top talents with very few irreplaceable talents available, their salaries will skyrocket. Supply and demand.

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12-07-2012, 01:02 PM
  #248
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Fehr: in control and ready to move on.
If only he could have been in control of reality.

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Old
12-07-2012, 01:02 PM
  #249
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I guess James Dolan is busy producing the 12-12-12 Sandy Relief concert at MSG (an excellent cause btw - and an All Star lineup for the ages featuring JON BON JOVI, BILLY JOEL, ALICIA KEYS, PAUL McCARTNEY + ?, BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN & THE E STREET BAND, ROGER WATERS +??, KANYE WEST, THE ROLLING STONES AND THE WHO!!) and forgot to crash the other owners little debacle In NYC the other day. Too bad...
Jealous of all of you that can attend this Woodstockish Jamboree - ENJOY IT!

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12-07-2012, 01:09 PM
  #250
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Am I the only who finds these "#lockoutproblems" hashtag tweets by players, disgusting?

Seriously, these players tweeting pics on beautiful vacations and such.."lockoutproblems"


Unbelievable.

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