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The Official Arena Thread Part 6

View Poll Results: On what day will city council vote to finalize a new arena for Edmonton's downtown?
Between now and Christmas 2012 8 7.41%
Between New Year's Day and the end of February 2013 30 27.78%
Between March and July, 2013 16 14.81%
Before the October 2013 civic election 14 12.96%
Not until 2014 4 3.70%
Not until 2015 3 2.78%
Not until 2016 1 0.93%
Not until 2017 6 5.56%
Never 26 24.07%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-07-2012, 08:34 AM
  #401
joestevens29
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Well replacement you are 100 percent right.There is no guarantee that the NHL will be around anyway now so why do fans want to waste taxpayer money on this?
Regardless of NHL or not we are going to need a new arena in the near future.

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12-07-2012, 08:56 AM
  #402
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Regardless of NHL or not we are going to need a new arena in the near future.
So then build one for 100 million.

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12-07-2012, 09:00 AM
  #403
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So then build one for 100 million.


You can't even renovate a building that is standing for that little.

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12-07-2012, 11:34 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I stopped reading with the bolded..
Well, I guess you better start reading again.

Michigan Senate OKs bill allowing use of tax money to help finance new arena for Red Wings

http://www.faceoff.com/sports/hockey...461/story.html

"The Michigan Senate approved legislation Wednesday to help finance a downtown Detroit project that would include a new home for the NHL's Detroit Red Wings. The bill approved by the Senate would allow use of tax dollars collected by the city's Downtown Development Authority for the project.

"This is a direct subsidy by school kids to allow a billionaire to build a hockey arena," Whitmer said. "That's the Republican agenda we all know and love. ... It makes me sick. I hear my colleagues say, 'Oh, this is for Detroit and we're all in favour of Detroit now,' because one billionaire called you
.'"

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12-07-2012, 11:47 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by ThePhoenixx View Post
Well, I guess you better start reading again.

Michigan Senate OKs bill allowing use of tax money to help finance new arena for Red Wings

http://www.faceoff.com/sports/hockey...461/story.html

"The Michigan Senate approved legislation Wednesday to help finance a downtown Detroit project that would include a new home for the NHL's Detroit Red Wings. The bill approved by the Senate would allow use of tax dollars collected by the city's Downtown Development Authority for the project.

"This is a direct subsidy by school kids to allow a billionaire to build a hockey arena," Whitmer said. "That's the Republican agenda we all know and love. ... It makes me sick. I hear my colleagues say, 'Oh, this is for Detroit and we're all in favour of Detroit now,' because one billionaire called you
.'"
I would like to believe that this stuff does not happen in Canada as often, as America is ruled by corporate interests more so then any other country.

I don't think we should compare public funding and arena politics between us and the Americans. I will be naive enough to think that there are more checks and balances in our country to prevent too much abuse of public money. Don't get me wrong it happens, but not to the extent of our neighbours.

That or our politicians hide it better.

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12-07-2012, 12:05 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by ThePhoenixx View Post
Well, I guess you better start reading again.

Michigan Senate OKs bill allowing use of tax money to help finance new arena for Red Wings

http://www.faceoff.com/sports/hockey...461/story.html

"The Michigan Senate approved legislation Wednesday to help finance a downtown Detroit project that would include a new home for the NHL's Detroit Red Wings. The bill approved by the Senate would allow use of tax dollars collected by the city's Downtown Development Authority for the project.

"This is a direct subsidy by school kids to allow a billionaire to build a hockey arena," Whitmer said. "That's the Republican agenda we all know and love. ... It makes me sick. I hear my colleagues say, 'Oh, this is for Detroit and we're all in favour of Detroit now,' because one billionaire called you
.'"
Totally different situation in Michigan. Plus, it's important to keep in mind that Calgary would come calling with their collection plate if the province were to give Edmonton significant funds for something like this.

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12-07-2012, 01:05 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
So then build one for 100 million.
You might want to look at what buildings cost in Alberta...

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12-07-2012, 01:07 PM
  #408
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Well, it sounds like the city still wants to negotiate with The Katz Group. Councilman Anderson is suggesting that they have to come to an agreement on a deal before March as the project is in danger of becoming an election issue. He claims that The Katz Group might run into more problems getting this deal done if there's a turnover on council.

Mandel is suggesting that they need to get another mediator involved ASAP.

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12-07-2012, 01:08 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Wake up. Demographics are changing. Hockey was never always the most popular sport, even in Canada. If this league crashes what makes you think Hockey will be given another shot? It shows the sport is not viable. More kids in Canada play soccer, hell hockey registration is slower the the rate of growth according to the last census.
It's a sport for the privileged white kids.

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12-07-2012, 01:10 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Oilersfanneedsdrink View Post
I would like to believe that this stuff does not happen in Canada as often, as America is ruled by corporate interests more so then any other country.

I don't think we should compare public funding and arena politics between us and the Americans. I will be naive enough to think that there are more checks and balances in our country to prevent too much abuse of public money. Don't get me wrong it happens, but not to the extent of our neighbours.

That or our politicians hide it better.
You can't throw money at an incredibly broken education system like they have in the US and expect it to improve unilaterally. More money does not change the unions protecting bad teachers nor does it change certain acts like No Child Left Behind.

I am definitely opposed to taking from a fundamentally needy area and moving it into a private profiteering venture, but none of that has been proposed in either Edmonton or Detroit's plans. To claim any public funding is paramount to stealing from education and children is just another biased claim and such claims are constructed to misinform and rile up the people who don't bother to educate themselves on the matter. We may as well claim any funds not diverted directly into education as stealing from children if that was the case.

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Old
12-07-2012, 02:14 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Well, it sounds like the city still wants to negotiate with The Katz Group. Councilman Anderson is suggesting that they have to come to an agreement on a deal before March as the project is in danger of becoming an election issue. He claims that The Katz Group might run into more problems getting this deal done if there's a turnover on council.

Mandel is suggesting that they need to get another mediator involved ASAP.
that's why I dislike the people on council and think they are part of the problem.
Forget doing your job and maybe getting a deal done in a timely manner and doing what's right for the city. anderson wants a deal done before it can become an election issue.
way to put his priority of getting reelected over his job performance.
he thinks a new council would give katz more problems? Katz didn't get a deal with the current council, so how much worse could council without anderson be.

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12-07-2012, 02:18 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
You can't throw money at an incredibly broken education system like they have in the US and expect it to improve unilaterally. More money does not change the unions protecting bad teachers nor does it change certain acts like No Child Left Behind.

I am definitely opposed to taking from a fundamentally needy area and moving it into a private profiteering venture, but none of that has been proposed in either Edmonton or Detroit's plans. To claim any public funding is paramount to stealing from education and children is just another biased claim and such claims are constructed to misinform and rile up the people who don't bother to educate themselves on the matter. We may as well claim any funds not diverted directly into education as stealing from children if that was the case.
you'd think the city could redirect the1.5% neighbourhood revitialization levy towards the project for one year or two. Having a new area would do more to revitilize an area of town than new sidewalks would in my part of town.
the city of Edmonton website states "From 2012-14, the City will invest $415.2 million in Neighbourhood Renewal." so throw some of that to the project and our taxes wouldn't even have to go up.

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12-07-2012, 02:22 PM
  #413
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that's why I dislike the people on council and think they are part of the problem.
Forget doing your job and maybe getting a deal done in a timely manner and doing what's right for the city. anderson wants a deal done before it can become an election issue.
way to put his priority of getting reelected over his job performance.
he thinks a new council would give katz more problems? Katz didn't get a deal with the current council, so how much worse could council without anderson be.
Well it could be a way to pressure Katz. This City council if they want a deal to happen with Katz are pretty much throwing their last effort.

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12-07-2012, 03:57 PM
  #414
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You might want to look at what buildings cost in Alberta...
I think that's one of the biggest things that everyone is missing here when comparing this arena to everyone elses. When Detroit builds their new rink, guys in that area will be just happy to get work in construction, they don't care what they are really getting paid. In Edmonton, you are paying these guys a lot of money. The lowest paid guy working on the arena will probably be making like $17/hour

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12-07-2012, 04:49 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by molsonmuscle360 View Post
I think that's one of the biggest things that everyone is missing here when comparing this arena to everyone elses. When Detroit builds their new rink, guys in that area will be just happy to get work in construction, they don't care what they are really getting paid. In Edmonton, you are paying these guys a lot of money. The lowest paid guy working on the arena will probably be making like $17/hour
I think you're underestimating what people get paid in the trades. I'd think it would be a lot higher than $17 an hour for the low end jobs. I personally know guys walking into a low end laborer job off the street with no experience starting at over $20 an hour. get a union crew together and the sky is the limit.

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12-07-2012, 04:57 PM
  #416
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$20 an hour? Labourers? In Alberta?

Try $30 minimum.

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12-07-2012, 05:04 PM
  #417
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I think you're underestimating what people get paid in the trades. I'd think it would be a lot higher than $17 an hour for the low end jobs. I personally know guys walking into a low end laborer job off the street with no experience starting at over $20 an hour. get a union crew together and the sky is the limit.
I meant the $17/hour guy would be the little 17 year old running around getting coffee and donuts and crap for the workers. Yeah, anyone that's actually lifting anything more than 5 lbs up off the ground is getting probably $25/hr. Then you have your $40/hour + operators and your $50/hour engineers.

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12-07-2012, 06:47 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by ThePhoenixx View Post
Well, I guess you better start reading again.

Michigan Senate OKs bill allowing use of tax money to help finance new arena for Red Wings

http://www.faceoff.com/sports/hockey...461/story.html

"The Michigan Senate approved legislation Wednesday to help finance a downtown Detroit project that would include a new home for the NHL's Detroit Red Wings. The bill approved by the Senate would allow use of tax dollars collected by the city's Downtown Development Authority for the project.

"This is a direct subsidy by school kids to allow a billionaire to build a hockey arena," Whitmer said. "That's the Republican agenda we all know and love. ... It makes me sick. I hear my colleagues say, 'Oh, this is for Detroit and we're all in favour of Detroit now,' because one billionaire called you
.'"
The city of Detroit is bankrupt and facing being taken over by the state in one of the hardest hit state economies in the US, and they are handing out tax dollars to build arenas.

Regardless of Edmonton's own predicament, that is hilarious.

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12-07-2012, 07:43 PM
  #419
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The city of Detroit is bankrupt and facing being taken over by the state in one of the hardest hit state economies in the US, and they are handing out tax dollars to build arenas.

Regardless of Edmonton's own predicament, that is hilarious.
Well...spending and creating jobs does stimulate the economy.

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12-07-2012, 08:25 PM
  #420
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Well...spending and creating jobs does stimulate the economy.
Building an arena with tax money offers about the worst possible return on that investment. Build a factory, power plant, dam, actual industrial infrastructure that COULD properly promote an economy and provide some jobs in the longterm.

An arena provides many jobs during construction(which most any development would) but only provides service industry jobs after construction.

This is NOT how to stimulate an economy.

In general I find it laughable that a Detroit model is being held up in this thread as an example for us that we should follow.

jebus nobody should think the grass is greener on the Detroit downtown side.

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12-07-2012, 08:46 PM
  #421
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Building an arena with tax money offers about the worst possible return on that investment. Build a factory, power plant, dam, actual industrial infrastructure that COULD properly promote an economy and provide some jobs in the longterm.

An arena provides many jobs during construction(which most any development would) but only provides service industry jobs after construction.

This is NOT how to stimulate an economy.

In general I find it laughable that a Detroit model is being held up in this thread as an example for us that we should follow.

jebus nobody should think the grass is greener on the Detroit downtown side.
Splitting hairs...ROI, really? I agree that providing a building that doesn't pay back any kind of future dividend is less desirable. But in a economy where jobs and stimulus is needed it's better than doing nothing.

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12-07-2012, 09:15 PM
  #422
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Building an arena with tax money offers about the worst possible return on that investment. Build a factory, power plant, dam, actual industrial infrastructure that COULD properly promote an economy and provide some jobs in the longterm.

An arena provides many jobs during construction(which most any development would) but only provides service industry jobs after construction.

This is NOT how to stimulate an economy.

In general I find it laughable that a Detroit model is being held up in this thread as an example for us that we should follow.

jebus nobody should think the grass is greener on the Detroit downtown side.
Actually, if what was said on Bob McCowans show the other day by I believe it was LeBrun, is Detroit is using a model similar to what Edmonton had wanted. If you didn't know, Detroit's downtown core is a ghost town, noone goes there. They want to have the Lions, Red Wings, Pistons and Tigers all playing really close to each other and create an entertainment district downtown.

Just like Detroit, Edmonton's downtown is a hellhole that a sports owner wants to revitalize. Only exception is in Michigan, they are willing to help that out, instead of thinking that corporations should be completely responsible for the revitalization of their cities.

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12-08-2012, 12:32 AM
  #423
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Actually, if what was said on Bob McCowans show the other day by I believe it was LeBrun, is Detroit is using a model similar to what Edmonton had wanted. If you didn't know, Detroit's downtown core is a ghost town, noone goes there. They want to have the Lions, Red Wings, Pistons and Tigers all playing really close to each other and create an entertainment district downtown.

Just like Detroit, Edmonton's downtown is a hellhole that a sports owner wants to revitalize. Only exception is in Michigan, they are willing to help that out, instead of thinking that corporations should be completely responsible for the revitalization of their cities.
With all respect I can't really have a conversation about this with people comparing downtown Detroit with Downtown Edmonton.

I can't comprehend the notion that anybody would think these are comparables.

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12-08-2012, 12:36 AM
  #424
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Splitting hairs...ROI, really? I agree that providing a building that doesn't pay back any kind of future dividend is less desirable. But in a economy where jobs and stimulus is needed it's better than doing nothing.
No it isn't actually. Its the closest thing to pissing in the wind.

What exactly is wrong with Joe Louis Arena?

This notion that entertainment leads to revitilization, economic resurrection, and vitality is strange at best.

If anything it shakes money out of the pockets of whats left of the middle class trying to pay mortgage.

The way to build economies is through industry, production, jobs, middle class, and real disposable income. Spent on things people actually require to be productive. Most nations that are rising up in the world order get this.

A flatlining dead and bankrupt city like Detroit probably shouldn't be wasting Tax dollars.


Last edited by Replacement: 12-08-2012 at 12:43 AM.
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12-08-2012, 01:01 AM
  #425
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I'm not sure if this is relevant or not but I mentioned it in the OT Thread. I've noticed that a few upcoming concerts (Alexisonfire, Billy Talent) are at Shaw Conference instead of Rexall. Is Rexall outdated enough that they can't play there or is Katz purposefully selling the arena short to the managers of the bands or something?

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