that was 4 years ago, that's like saying Ovechkin is still the best player in the world.
Datsyuk needs to step up his game to that elite level once again. My answer is Datsyuk but it's cutting fairly close as the years go on.
He did 59 in 56 in 2010-11. That's pace for 86 in 82, which would have put him 7th in scoring (Ovechkin was 7th with 85, Selanne and Zetterberg tied for 8th with 80).
So you voted for Zetterberg, then? Same 0.93 PPG as Toews in the past three years (Toews does edge him out slightly once you get to the next decimal) and he's the best defensive forward of the three.
... What the hell? I wasn't telling you who to vote for, I was saying that it's close between Datsyuk and Toews, and it has been consistently for the past 3 years. I disagree that Zetterberg is the best defensive forward of the three, and he also scored at a lower rate than the other two this past season by a larger margin.
... What the hell? I wasn't telling you who to vote for, I was saying that it's close between Datsyuk and Toews, and it has been consistently for the past 3 years. I disagree that Zetterberg is the best defensive forward of the three, and he also scored at a lower rate than the other two this past season by a larger margin.
He outscored Datsyuk at ES/60 on the same team. Datsyuk scores more on the PP because Z plays the wing and sees less of the puck. Part of it last season was also Holmstrom spending less time on the top unit with them, and Franzen more; this meant Dats passing to Franzen for the shot rather than Z. If you flipped their roles on the PP, Z would likely outcore Dats there, or score comparably.
It should be noted that Z's numbers last season were hurt significantly by a slow October. He was outscored in the second half by Malkin, and only Malkin. He was also by far the Wings' best player in the playoffs, as is the norm.
Z's role over the past four years has been shut-down center while Dats has run the offensive line, although Z's line was more prolific last year. Yet he still scores at the kind of rate he has, and finished 8th in 2010-11. Any discussion of elite centers that doesn't include Zetterberg isn't a valid discussion.
In 2009-10 and 2010-11 combined, he scored a higher PPG than Datsyuk. For the past three years he's scored 17 fewer points than he's played games; most of that gap came in the first half of last season (-9). Since the lockout, Z has scored above PPG (hitting PPG+ in 4/7 seasons) and is 13th overall (7th among centers or 4th among LW, depending on where you classify him), with Datsyuk as the only other Selke nominee in the top 40 in total points aside from Richards at 40th, and Toews at 32nd for PPG while Z is top 20.
Yep, anybody attempting to use Datsyuk's ppg avg the past 2 seasons is making a flawed argument.
The past two seasons Datsyuk was 4th in lge scoring and on pace for 100 pts before suffering significant injuries that forced him into surgery and missing time.
So when you say things like "his offensive game hasn't been that good since 09", you might as well be saying "I don't know what I'm talking about it."
One of the highest scoring playoff runs since the lockout (second highest, if I'm not mistaken) as well as tremendous defensive play throughout... and he didn't deserve the Conn Smythe.
Hahahahaha.
HF and its revisionist history. As laughable as ever.
Oh good, now we use the convenient injury excuse. Because it's not as if Toews ever played through injuries in these same few years - of course not.
It's not like other players besides Datsyuk who play this physical game ever get hurt. Nope.
Results-oriented business. They produce at essentially the same level on offense and Datsyuk has a tiny edge defensively. It's telling that the only people disagreeing that the two players are extremely close are Detroit fans.
Results-oriented business. They produce at essentially the same level on offense and Datsyuk has a tiny edge defensively. It's telling that the only people disagreeing that the two players are extremely close are Detroit fans.
If it were extremely close the poll results would show it.
If it were extremely close the poll results would show it.
For one, that's a pathetic argument as it labels HF polls as the be-all end-all for judging players.
But even with that put to the side, you don't believe a small difference in the caliber of two players can also be a clear difference?
Elementary reasoning.
If Datsyuk was vastly better than Toews, he'd be the best player in the NHL. Malkin is vastly better than Toews.
Not Datsyuk. He has not been "so much better" since 2009.
Clearly has an extra something over Toews, as I've been saying all along. But once again the only people claiming the difference is anything but small are simply Detroit homers.
Yep, anybody attempting to use Datsyuk's ppg avg the past 2 seasons is making a flawed argument.
The past two seasons Datsyuk was 4th in lge scoring and on pace for 100 pts before suffering significant injuries that forced him into surgery and missing time.
So when you say things like "his offensive game hasn't been that good since 09", you might as well be saying "I don't know what I'm talking about it."
I'll believe 100 points from Datsyuk when I see it, of course at one point, any player can be "on pace for over 100 points". Kessel was early on, Gaborik was last season, Stamkos was this and last year.
You might as well be saying "I'm a die hard Datsyuk homer".
Not to mention Toews has played through injuries also..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hansen
For one, that's a pathetic argument as it labels HF polls as the be-all end-all for judging players.
But even with that put to the side, you don't believe a small difference in the caliber of two players can also be a clear difference?
Elementary reasoning.
If Datsyuk was vastly better than Toews, he'd be the best player in the NHL. Malkin is vastly better than Toews.
Not Datsyuk. He has not been "so much better" since 2009.
Clearly has an extra something over Toews, as I've been saying all along. But once again the only people claiming the difference is anything but small are simply Detroit homers.
Exactly, it's still Datsyuk, we can see that, but "AINEC" is dumb. Datsyuk isn't close to the best player in the world.
If it were extremely close the poll results would show it.
Not true, all that the poll indicates is that a lot of people think Datsyuk is better than Toews. It has no bearing on the degree to which people think Datsyuk is better, all it says is that more people think that Datsyuk is the best option. Suggesting that that indicates Datsyuk is significantly better is a false equivalence.
If player A scored 83 points per season and player B scored 82 points per season and both were identical in defense, intangibles, etc, and 100% of people said player A is better, it would not mean player A is significantly better.
I'll believe 100 points from Datsyuk when I see it, of course at one point, any player can be "on pace for over 100 points". Kessel was early on, Gaborik was last season, Stamkos was this and last year.
You might as well be saying "I'm a die hard Datsyuk homer".
Not to mention Toews has played through injuries also..
The difference being that Datsyuk put up 97 pts in two of the previous 3 seasons, so there's that little thing called historic evidence that hangs on his side. So when he's healthy and again on a similar scoring pace, it isnt what you'd just call a "hot streak". That's simply his game. That's why he's been considered the elite 2-way forward in the NHL.
And every single player battles injuries though a NHL season and career. But attempting to weigh injuries as equal as far as impact is simply ignorant. Injuries that force you under the knife and into the pressbox tend to have a little bigger impact. Datsyuk's hand and knee are kind of significant given the game he plays. But yeah, Toews' injuries are equally as impacting the past two seasons I'm sure.
If you want to bring up only current years (the last 2 years), aside from Datsyuk being injured. Toews played with Sharp, Kane, Hossa. Datsyuk played with..... Holmstrom, Bertuzzi, Franzen. This is pretty simple choice. Datsyuk is better offensively and better defensively.
Why didn't you quote the rest of my post. I gave my reasons. I guess if you said Toews was better I would be 'surprised' as well.
2 of Toews' 3 most common linemates last year were Stalberg and Brunette, the latter being perhaps the worst scrub to suit up for Chicago since they were a cellar mainstay.
Datsyuk barely played with Holmstrom last season. His most common linemates by far were Bertuzzi and Franzen, and his third most common was Zetterberg.
Toews may have a slight edge in the linemate quality category, but the linemate argument is silly and generally unquantifiable as well... especially when the difference is negligible (or perhaps non-existent) as in this case.
Hell, if you take the top three... Toews had Stalberg, Brunette, and Kane. Datsyuk had Bertuzzi, Franzen, and Zetterberg. As a group, you could even make the argument that Datsyuk's linemates were better.
Anyway...
Datsyuk is not "much better" than Toews. It is apparent that Red Wings fans are the only ones who disagree with that.
I have to imagine the Detroit fans capable of some objectivity realize what's actually the case.
(Not sure if you misunderstood or hadn't read my earlier posts, but I'm not saying Toews is better. I said Datsyuk is clearly the superior player, but the difference between the two is nevertheless very small).
2 of Toews' 3 most common linemates last year were Stalberg and Brunette, the latter being perhaps the worst scrub to suit up for Chicago since they were a cellar mainstay.
Datsyuk barely played with Holmstrom last season. His most common linemates by far were Bertuzzi and Franzen, and his third most common was Zetterberg.
Toews may have a slight edge in the linemate quality category, but the linemate argument is silly and generally unquantifiable as well... especially when the difference is negligible (or perhaps non-existent) as in this case.
Hell, if you take the top three... Toews had Stalberg, Brunette, and Kane. Datsyuk had Bertuzzi, Franzen, and Zetterberg. As a group, you could even make the argument that Datsyuk's linemates were better.
Anyway...
Datsyuk is not "much better" than Toews. It is apparent that Red Wings fans are the only ones who disagree with that.
I have to imagine the Detroit fans capable of some objectivity realize what's actually the case.
(Not sure if you misunderstood or hadn't read my earlier posts, but I'm not saying Toews is better. I said Datsyuk is clearly the superior player, but the difference between the two is nevertheless very small).
Datsyuk third most common was no Zetterberg, it was Hudler, after him you can make the argument for Cleary as he started the season on the top line and played there until he got injured. Then it was Zetterberg. If you watched any Red Wing games you would know Datsyuk and Zetterberg haven't played consistently together since 2008, they don't have the depth they used to, they can't put both them together.
Also, no. The gap really isn't that small, Datsyuk by far is better.
The difference being that Datsyuk put up 97 pts in two of the previous 3 seasons, so there's that little thing called historic evidence that hangs on his side. So when he's healthy and again on a similar scoring pace, it isnt what you'd just call a "hot streak". That's simply his game. That's why he's been considered the elite 2-way forward in the NHL.
And every single player battles injuries though a NHL season and career. But attempting to weigh injuries as equal as far as impact is simply ignorant. Injuries that force you under the knife and into the pressbox tend to have a little bigger impact. Datsyuk's hand and knee are kind of significant given the game he plays. But yeah, Toews' injuries are equally as impacting the past two seasons I'm sure.
There's also a thing called relevant time frame, Ovechkin averaged 54 goals/106points a season in his first 5, given Ovechkin's production of late, what are the chances he scores 80 points next year than 106?
Datsyuk has not scored 97 points in what will be 4 years this april, and in the previous 3 he has averaged a 0.96 ppg and not his 1.16 that he held the previous 4 years to that.
I said Toews has had his share of injuries and you're really going to suggest Datsyuks injuries affect his game more then Toews? Im sure having your brains scrambled in a concussion and a shoulder injury to boot have no effect on "the type of game he plays".
Datsyuk third most common was no Zetterberg, it was Hudler, after him you can make the argument for Cleary as he started the season on the top line and played there until he got injured. Then it was Zetterberg. If you watched any Red Wing games you would know Datsyuk and Zetterberg haven't played consistently together since 2008, they don't have the depth they used to, they can't put both them together.
Also, no. The gap really isn't that small, Datsyuk by far is better.
Third most common was both Zetterberg and Cleary - played with them more or less the same amount last season.
I used the same website for Toews. Two of his three most common linemates were the only-recently-made-competent Viktor Stalberg and the greatest NHL slug of recent memory Andrew Brunette.
Sure, he had great quality beyond those two, but he played a ton of his minutes with them. And it's not as if Bertuzzi, Franzen, Cleary, etc. are bad players. They're all pretty solid. Not mentioning Zetterberg as I obviously put him on par with the various other Blackhawk stars.
If Datsyuk is "far better" than Jonathan Toews, he better still be winning Selkes regularly and putting up 90+ points every year.
Your linemate argument has already failed (and that argument is doomed for that from the beginning - do we label, say, John Tavares as an assured 100+ point player if given better linemates? No, we don't).
Again, if he is "much better," I want to see some proof on the ice. I don't see a difference on offense - there hasn't been one since 2009. Datsyuk gets a tiny edge defensively, and that may even be generous. We have two of the best defensive forwards in the league here.
Still wondering what exactly makes him the better player "by far." The only thing Wing fans have cited in response to that question so far is "Well, he scored 97 points four seasons ago."
Great. Unfortunately we're not talking about who has had the better career to date, we're talking about who's better right now. There is enough evidence to claim that Datsyuk has a small edge - just as I have done throughout this thread - but it reeks of bias to claim the gap is as large as some of you continue to insist.
I said Toews has had his share of injuries and you're really going to suggest Datsyuks injuries affect his game more then Toews? Im sure having your brains scrambled in a concussion and a shoulder injury to boot have no effect on "the type of game he plays".
Heh, right? But apparently Datsyuk is the only player who gets an excuse for these things.
How dare anyone suggest someone is close in caliber of play to the mighty Pavel
Not even that Toews is better - I don't think anyone's argued that. He's not. Yet certain people can't even accept that the difference is pretty small.
Typical HF homerism, I guess. Not all that unexpected.
I wouldnt say AINEC, its definitely close. But there is also a clear edge for Datsyuk here. They produced around the same last year, Datsyuk has an edge defensively but Datsyuk has the history to prove he can do it consistently. Toews hasnt had a point per game season or hit 80 points in his career. Datsyuk has always been a threat for a point per game season to go along with 2 87 point seasons and 2 97 point seasons.
Its close but theres also an edge for Datsyuk that doesnt make the choice hard
I wouldnt say AINEC, its definitely close. But there is also a clear edge for Datsyuk here. They produced around the same last year, Datsyuk has an edge defensively but Datsyuk has the history to prove he can do it consistently. Toews hasnt had a point per game season or hit 80 points in his career. Datsyuk has always been a threat for a point per game season to go along with 2 87 point seasons and 2 97 point seasons.
Its close but theres also an edge for Datsyuk that doesnt make the choice hard
Thank you for your objectivity. This is essentially what I've been arguing.
I'm a Wings fan, but it is very close and will continue to converge over the next season or two until Toews eventually eclipses Datsyuk. Pretending otherwise just makes us look bad.
Datsyuk obviously has the better seasons to date, but the purpose of this poll (as I understood it) is about the present. And presently Datsyuk has it by a slim margin. He plays the type of game that will continue to be effective as he ages, but Toews will inevitably surpass him at some point in the sense of "who is the better player currently".
He's not. Yet certain people can't even accept that the difference is pretty small.
