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So who is bummed about the lockout? II

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12-07-2012, 12:22 PM
  #926
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The group I am in with on Season Tickets canceled today.

I'm not saying I won't pick up a game or two IF there is a season, but the Wild just lost a season ticket holder today...

/sigh
Turns out we can't quite cancel yet... We can only get refunds for games missed to this point...

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12-07-2012, 12:26 PM
  #927
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The one good thing I can think of from this lockout is to not have to listen to LaPanta call games

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12-07-2012, 12:43 PM
  #928
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
As predicted, I'm the only one who sees fault with Bettman.

He literally came out and said the league's offer was take it or leave it. The PA met them on many points, countered on the remaining points, and Bettman balked and "took it off the table."

How is that conducive to getting a deal done?

Then Bettman and the owners are whining that the players weren't "appreciative" of their offer, at which point they decided to pack up their toys and go home.

Who's being petty now?

That there is four pages here savaging Fehr for having the gall to negotiate with a counter offer...no words.
Because that's not even remotely close to what happened.



What happened, and was confirmed by players speaking anonymously is that the league came across on all issues and said "look, we'll move from our position and meet you on all these points, and we have a done deal. Let us know yes or no." The players acknowledged this was a great move and that they'd basically have a done deal. Then they left the room and talked to D. Fehr who told them "oh they moved? We can get a lot more out of them, come back and stonewall them, just say we'll take everything you just offered and more. I know you guys are more than willing to take the deal on the table, but we can get so much more out of them." The players went back and said "all those things we'd told you were the important things before? None of those are actually the important thing, it's really this so give us that and what you offered, and two more things and we can call it a day."

Essentially, the league's offer was more than acceptable to the players and the PA. But D. Fehr couldn't let this be over. He had to stop all progress, losing even more games over...what? Now he has a revolution brewing under him. Yeah, Bettman came to the podium, absolutely livid because of what Fehr had just done. Yeah, he took his proposal and went home with it. Do you know why? Because that's necessary in these negotiations. The last offer needed a special BoG meeting just to get permission to be made. The players demanded more, so the league had to take it back. It's a package deal, not a negotiating start point. The players were willing to vote on it too, but Fehr refused to allow it.

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12-07-2012, 12:57 PM
  #929
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Originally Posted by squidz View Post
Because that's not even remotely close to what happened.



What happened, and was confirmed by players speaking anonymously is that the league came across on all issues and said "look, we'll move from our position and meet you on all these points, and we have a done deal. Let us know yes or no." The players acknowledged this was a great move and that they'd basically have a done deal. Then they left the room and talked to D. Fehr who told them "oh they moved? We can get a lot more out of them, come back and stonewall them, just say we'll take everything you just offered and more. I know you guys are more than willing to take the deal on the table, but we can get so much more out of them." The players went back and said "all those things we'd told you were the important things before? None of those are actually the important thing, it's really this so give us that and what you offered, and two more things and we can call it a day."
B S

Post a link to back that up.

Quote:
Essentially, the league's offer was more than acceptable to the players and the PA. But D. Fehr couldn't let this be over. He had to stop all progress, losing even more games over...what? Now he has a revolution brewing under him. Yeah, Bettman came to the podium, absolutely livid because of what Fehr had just done. Yeah, he took his proposal and went home with it. Do you know why? Because that's necessary in these negotiations. The last offer needed a special BoG meeting just to get permission to be made. The players demanded more, so the league had to take it back. It's a package deal, not a negotiating start point. The players were willing to vote on it too, but Fehr refused to allow it.


Thanks for the insight. Glad that you know exactly what the union does and does not find acceptable.

TL;DR = Squidz is unhappy because the PA did not acquiesce to the league's demands.

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12-07-2012, 01:02 PM
  #930
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Originally Posted by rynryn View Post
Still, Fehr has been a disengeous ****stick this entire process, with the little stall tactics and large frustration tactics etc. What i don't understand is how some people seem to think that's admirable in Fehr (he's hardcore, doin the job fer the fellas! ) but Bettman's brutally curt responses are somehow indicative of ineptitude or malicious intent toward the sport.
I don't think Fehr is "admirable" but I recognize that he's the players' best shot at getting the fewest amount of rights and money taken from them vs the last CBA.

Quote:
You are seriously stupid if you believe in any way that Fehr cares about the game of hockey going into the future. you are equally stupid if you believe Bettman doesn't.
Fehr's not paid to care about hockey, he's paid to maintain as much of the players' rights and money possible.

And if Bettman cared so much about the future of hockey, he wouldn't be slogging his way through the third lockout under his watch. I have no doubt he cares about hockey, but not nearly as much as money.

Quote:
What is that horrible deal for the players that they would have agreed to, Jarick? How horrible was it for the players? Will they suffer as much as they did the last negotiations?
Look at the proposals from two months ago. PA would have left half a billion dollars on the table plus a huge loss of contract rights.

If it were as simple as straight money lost from wages this season vs the lockout term, this lockout would be over by now.

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12-07-2012, 01:09 PM
  #931
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Really why I post so much here about the lockout is because I firmly believe that people give Bettman a free pass and demonize Fehr, as if it is his fault the owners have locked out the players.

Stephen Brunt sums it up nicely:

Quote:
What set Bettman off was staring across the bargaining table at his mirror image.

Ask anyone who has had to haggle out a deal with Bettman behind closed doors and they’ll paint a picture of a brilliant, calculating and ruthless negotiator, who seizes every advantage, who when presented with an opportunity goes straight for the kill. He understands his opposition’s weak points, he knows his side’s strengths, and with a cool head and cold eyes he calculates the path to victory. That’s one reason why his employers, the owners, love him, and pay him the big bucks.

The players hired Donald Fehr as their union head because he is Bettman’s equal. He is there to guard them against falling prey to their own sentimentality about the game, to protect their interests in a negotiation in which everyone understood that they would be giving back, would be surrendering rights and surrendering money guaranteed in the previous collective agreement.
There's no way to point a rosy picture of either Bettman or Fehr. I certainly don't like them any more than I do any other lawyer who interferes with life. That is exactly what they are: "calculating and ruthless" lawyers who will try and squeeze every last penny from each other at the expense of the fans and the game of hockey.

If Bettman were a reasonable person who cared more about the game of hockey than his owners' pocketbooks, perhaps the players wouldn't have had to hire a mercenary like Fehr. But that would have been the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight.

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12-07-2012, 01:19 PM
  #932
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So, what it is. And what it has been through the whole "process". It's not about negotiations, it's not about solving the problems. It's about fighting and beating the opponent.

Only.. downside in this kind of "process" is that.. owners, players, fans and all the other who make their living in this business will lose.

Let 'em command if they want but don't let 'em "negotiate". There are professionals for that.

Sad.

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12-07-2012, 02:09 PM
  #933
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I believe Bettman's self interest is best served by keeping the sport healthy. Does he want the owners to come out "on top"? Of course. They are the money behind the sport. They are his paycheck. I think it's a stretch to say Fehr even cares about the individual players, but lets just assume he does; the individual players don't care as much for the long term health of the sport as the owners do. don't fool yourself. They don't have as much stake in the long term success of the league as the owners do. Bettman serves the interests of those with more concern over the long term health of the sport. I care about the health of the sport. the players are not crippled in the slightest by any of the NHLs proposals (aside from the first low-ball one no one expected anyone to sign anyway). Fehr has no motivation at all to keep the sport healthy. None. Bettman does. Which would i rather see prevail? Bettman.

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12-07-2012, 03:23 PM
  #934
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The irony is that the owners hired Bettman to fight the players to draw up a new CBA to save the owners from themselves.

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12-07-2012, 03:31 PM
  #935
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Jarick/Squidz/Rynryn/et.al.

Frankly, I am fed up with the ****show that both sides put on last night.

D.Fehr knew the NHL rejected their proposal when he took the podium the first time.
S.Fehr sent the call to voicemail, rather than pick it up.
G.Bettman/B.Daly guessed that the PA was going to pull some **** like they did.
G.Bettman/B.Daly put on just as much of a show as D.Fehr put on. More effective, even.

The four owners statements were crafted well in advance to either presser. Those were released well within a half an hour of Bettman's press conference. It takes a bit longer than that to craft a PR message so finely worded.

****. Them. All.

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12-07-2012, 03:37 PM
  #936
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Well it's not like the owners were going to have really meaty statements. They have to run everything through Bettman otherwise they get fined.

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12-07-2012, 04:14 PM
  #937
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
B S

Post a link to back that up.





Thanks for the insight. Glad that you know exactly what the union does and does not find acceptable.

TL;DR = Squidz is unhappy because the PA did not acquiesce to the league's demands.
Yep nothing supports that.

Again, back here in reality, your silly little personal vendetta against Bettman, along with your "woe is me" claims about being "the only one who can see" don't hold any water.

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12-07-2012, 04:18 PM
  #938
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Originally Posted by bozak911 View Post
Jarick/Squidz/Rynryn/et.al.

Frankly, I am fed up with the ****show that both sides put on last night.

D.Fehr knew the NHL rejected their proposal when he took the podium the first time.
S.Fehr sent the call to voicemail, rather than pick it up.
G.Bettman/B.Daly guessed that the PA was going to pull some **** like they did.
G.Bettman/B.Daly put on just as much of a show as D.Fehr put on. More effective, even.

The four owners statements were crafted well in advance to either presser. Those were released well within a half an hour of Bettman's press conference. It takes a bit longer than that to craft a PR message so finely worded.

****. Them. All.
The timing of the presser had nothing to do with anything. The owner letters, which could have easily been whipped up in less than 15 minutes then gone through a PR comb for an hour, would have been written when the owners left around 6 hours earlier in the day. Where people got this idea that the letters couldn't have possibly begun being written until after Bettman was done talking, I can't really say. It makes less than zero sense, and even the mere fact that anyone would ever even conceive of mentioning it shows how little grasp that person has upon the process.

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12-07-2012, 05:34 PM
  #939
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definitely the owners need saving from themselves (for the good of the league). One of the reasons I have hope that it's not just the big cash running the whole show with Bettman as their puppet is the shorter contract lengths the owners want. It's good for the mega stars--obviously. It's also good for the markets that can afford to sink that much money into a couple players because they can lure just about anyone they want and keep them there, gaining the talent and the fan interest etc. the only party it isn't good for is the small market teams. It's about parity, not screwing the players. Bettman is not Boston's puppet.

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12-08-2012, 12:07 AM
  #940
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In any case I'm still enjoying the Russo/Walsh back and forth.

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12-08-2012, 12:18 AM
  #941
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Russo is the best. Conversely, Walsh is also the worst.

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12-08-2012, 12:28 AM
  #942
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The NHL Lockout has gotten to a point of no return.Bettman and Fehr would have better luck playing Pick Up Sticks with their butt cheeks than getting a deal done. Fold the NHL start a new leauge.

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12-08-2012, 12:33 AM
  #943
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Russo is the best. Conversely, Walsh is also the worst.
Walsh sure craves the attention. Kinda get the feeling that he would love to be in Fehr's shoes right now.

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12-08-2012, 01:10 AM
  #944
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The timing of the presser had nothing to do with anything. The owner letters, which could have easily been whipped up in less than 15 minutes then gone through a PR comb for an hour, would have been written when the owners left around 6 hours earlier in the day. Where people got this idea that the letters couldn't have possibly begun being written until after Bettman was done talking, I can't really say. It makes less than zero sense, and even the mere fact that anyone would ever even conceive of mentioning it shows how little grasp that person has upon the process.
Yeah, that is what I don't get... There were "journalists" that thought that these letters from owners were tossed out at the last minute... As a reaction to Bettman's presser.

No. They were "were crafted well in advance to either presser."

My point is this... The PAs presser was very well crafted ****show theatre. The original plan for the NHL presser was also going to be very well crafted ****show theatre. Bettman sorta blew that off the rails by being so blatantly angry.

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12-08-2012, 02:16 AM
  #945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bozak911 View Post
Jarick/Squidz/Rynryn/et.al.

Frankly, I am fed up with the ****show that both sides put on last night.

D.Fehr knew the NHL rejected their proposal when he took the podium the first time.
S.Fehr sent the call to voicemail, rather than pick it up.
G.Bettman/B.Daly guessed that the PA was going to pull some **** like they did.
G.Bettman/B.Daly put on just as much of a show as D.Fehr put on. More effective, even.

The four owners statements were crafted well in advance to either presser. Those were released well within a half an hour of Bettman's press conference. It takes a bit longer than that to craft a PR message so finely worded.

****. Them. All.
This is very true. Everyone involved has done some serious bad-faith negotiating in the last few days, then had the balls to call the other side out for being manipulative. Why on earth do they want all this out in the media? Like, this is the very definition of cutting off the nose to spite the face.

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12-08-2012, 05:51 AM
  #946
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there is way too much spin out there to draw the line of who's a bad guy who is a good guy.

Both sides have done stupid ****, PA with not ever being serious till now, NHL for trying to win on all points. this lockout will end if and when both sides cut the **** and star being serious.

On the other hand tho, anyone else feel that Fehr tore Bettman a new one? Bettman suggested that Owners and Players meet, most believed that Fehr would never allow it, he did. So owners and players meet, they cut the ****, owners shift and give on issues they previously "gave as much as we can give on" Fehr smells the soiled diapers and goes for the kill. Just seems like he set it up and waited for the right time to pounce.

At the end of it, owners are infuriated, they claim again to pull it from the table (each time they did this the offer got better for the players), and they still need to get a deal done to save the season.

So can anyone be surprised by this move?

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12-08-2012, 08:04 AM
  #947
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Yep nothing supports that.

Again, back here in reality, your silly little personal vendetta against Bettman, along with your "woe is me" claims about being "the only one who can see" don't hold any water.
Yep, nothing backs up your claims that the PA told owners they would agree to a deal and then "moved the goal posts."

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12-08-2012, 09:50 AM
  #948
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Yep, nothing backs up your claims that the PA told owners they would agree to a deal and then "moved the goal posts."
Hey, now Jarick's moving the goalposts, and trying to turn a blind eye to all the evidence!

If you've followed anything with this, it's been painfully clear. The PA had been grandstanding and announcing that economic issues were the problem, and that they were very close ($1BN is close right?). Suddenly, core economics didn't matter, and all we heard about was contracting issues of contract limits, UFA age, and arbitration changes. Now suddenly, the "big deal" holding up the NHLPA is pensions? Something that hasn't even been mentioned once up to this point? No no Jarick, you must be right, this has been story the whole time. I mean, we all knew back in July that pensions were the big sticking point the players were concerned about right?

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12-08-2012, 09:58 AM
  #949
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Hey, now Jarick's moving the goalposts, and trying to turn a blind eye to all the evidence!

If you've followed anything with this, it's been painfully clear. The PA had been grandstanding and announcing that economic issues were the problem, and that they were very close ($1BN is close right?). Suddenly, core economics didn't matter, and all we heard about was contracting issues of contract limits, UFA age, and arbitration changes. Now suddenly, the "big deal" holding up the NHLPA is pensions? Something that hasn't even been mentioned once up to this point? No no Jarick, you must be right, this has been story the whole time. I mean, we all knew back in July that pensions were the big sticking point the players were concerned about right?

i'm trying to stay out of it but the recent tactics just reek of players getting the owners to bend and then going back to Fehr who just jumped with glee that owners are bending and urged his union to ask for more.

its a damn shame.

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12-08-2012, 10:04 AM
  #950
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there is way too much spin out there to draw the line of who's a bad guy who is a good guy.

Both sides have done stupid ****, PA with not ever being serious till now, NHL for trying to win on all points. this lockout will end if and when both sides cut the **** and star being serious.

On the other hand tho, anyone else feel that Fehr tore Bettman a new one? Bettman suggested that Owners and Players meet, most believed that Fehr would never allow it, he did. So owners and players meet, they cut the ****, owners shift and give on issues they previously "gave as much as we can give on" Fehr smells the soiled diapers and goes for the kill. Just seems like he set it up and waited for the right time to pounce.

At the end of it, owners are infuriated, they claim again to pull it from the table (each time they did this the offer got better for the players), and they still need to get a deal done to save the season.

So can anyone be surprised by this move?
I think you're leaving out a number of things. Fehr singlehandedly lost the PR war. It's over, he has lost the support of all the previously neutral or slightly player-leaning journalists. People like Russo and Dater are gone, and done sugar-coating things. Look at the response Walsh has gotten from all the people who would usually just grin and bear it, saying "on that silly agent, he just can't help himself."

On top of the PR war which the NHLPA seemed to regard as being so important, he killed the moderate owner. These notable moderates, with a huge urge to deal are no more. They've seen what is happening, and they've completely soured on the issue. That's not something that affects only this negotiation. Any of these owners that last until the next CBA negotiation are going to remember, and that's going to affect their opinions and stance.

Finally, the discontent in the PA is now public. Some of the players are no longer content to sit and watch. They're going public with their concerns and stories about the makeup of the union. They're making demands and drawing parallels to 2005, instead of the contrasts that had been the story thus far.

Now, on top of the things that actually affect the negotiations, this has managed to put a stain on Fehr's legacy. Coming out and basically saying "yeah, we pretty much have a deal" then staging the whole "voicemail" ordeal and claiming the league rejected their proposal really soured his reputation in the media. If the players come away with basically nothing (which seems guaranteed at this point) history isn't going to remember Fehr for standing up for the players, it's going to remember this as a gongshow befitting the recent history of the NHLPA (4 union heads since last CBA, midnight coups, spying on membership, and "lost" CBA negotiations).

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